Active Users:595 Time:02/08/2025 03:02:48 PM
Having finished the book, my thoughts. (Spoilers) Variant Send a noteboard - 16/07/2011 08:11:30 AM
I understand that Martin couldn't get the 5-year-gap to work, but I really wish he had. If I had to describe AFFC/ADWD in two words, it'd be "forced filler"

It's only so disappointing because the first three books are so tightly plotted. I'm still in awe of those, that manage to pack in half a dozen personal stories in between a large number of political and military conflicts that somehow all relate to one another by the end of the novel. I remember reading Storm and when Stannis shows up at the Wall, thinking "Aha! So that was his purpose in this book!" But it didn't feel cheap or a deus ex machina, because Stannis' personality, motivations, and political situation had all been well set-up, and set-up through the eyes of Davos, who has a compelling personal story as well. It was incredibly efficient plotting, but still a structure that allowed for a lot of character development, world-building, and literary themes. And, despite the novels' massive size, they moved fast. (Remember when Catelyn left Winterfell in one chapter, and in her next chapter, she was in King's Landing? Can you imagine that sort of quick movement in the series at the present?)

But (as Martin has admitted) this is the point in the series where all the characters are farthest apart, geographically and plot-wise. There's not a whole lot of overlap. And so I think Dance fails in its structure. Maybe it was inevitable. But the first three books all had a beginning, middle, and end for each character. There were still cliffhangers (Jaime and Davos in Clash, Arya in Game), but the cliffhangers still felt like a natural ending point. The cliffhangers in Dance don't have that feel.

A lot of people have compared this series to a medieval soap opera. I want to think it's better than that, and I think the first three books are. But Feast and Dance (both of which I enjoyed in their own way) are much more soapish, with characters running in circles, a series of melodramatic cliffhangers, and the sense that any sort of plot resolution has been delayed.

The lack of climax of the Meereenese knot, in my opinion, was probably the biggest disappointment in this book.

It's clear one of the main problems that George had to deal with is that he placed Dany half a world away from many of the characters he wanted her to meet. Thus, the Meereenese knot consisted of somehow getting all these blokes to her without the journey seeming contrived. And yes, this knot is definitely a bitch and a half because of both Dany's location, the logistical and chronological difficulties of GETTING to her location, as well as the large number of people that need to get there all at the right time and the right place and right order.

But this was a problem that he could have avoided by simply having Dany not settle in to "rule" in Meereen in the first place. But that's the kicker - he had to, didn't he? Because we can't have Dany showing up to Westeros too early, we needed those dragons to grow into the nuclear weapons they need to be, and he also needed time to pass for Arya, Bran, and Sansa's storylines to mature. Hence the problem in this aspect of the story with removing the 5 year gap.

In my opinion, it becomes rather painfully obvious that the characters Martin was trying to serve by filling that gap (Brienne, Cersei, Jaime, Dorne, the Iron Islands, etc) simply weren't worthy of it and the price he paid by slowing Jon, Dany, Tyrion, Bran, and Arya down was too high.

I hope things will improve - perhaps when Dany, Tyrion, Barristan and Victarion all start to interact, the plot will grow tighter. I suppose that Jon, Bran, Theon, Asha, and Davos might have an intersection as well. That will help the next books feel more cohesive, and possibly make it easier to craft a novel that feels more like a complete book and less like a serial installment.
Reply to message
A Dance with Dragons discussion thread - 11/07/2011 10:48:23 PM 6455 Views
Okay, first impressions. Basically spoiler-free, I suppose. - 11/07/2011 11:40:31 PM 2007 Views
I have it! *NM* - 12/07/2011 05:42:27 AM 1093 Views
A general question to get the discussion started: will two more books be enough? - 12/07/2011 02:22:52 PM 2210 Views
A very good question *major spoilers, then* - 12/07/2011 02:55:05 PM 2184 Views
Oh, come on. If anyone can do it, Martin can. - 15/07/2011 03:48:27 AM 1866 Views
It'll be tight. - 12/07/2011 04:32:39 PM 2174 Views
No but I think 3 will be possible - 26/07/2011 03:15:02 AM 2000 Views
what is Purple Wedding? *NM* - 27/07/2011 08:37:04 AM 977 Views
Joffrey and Margaery wedding - 27/07/2011 04:26:04 PM 2023 Views
Hero of the book? - 12/07/2011 10:12:02 PM 2320 Views
Lord Manderly gets my vote. - 12/07/2011 10:41:19 PM 2135 Views
Re: Hero of the book? - 12/07/2011 10:43:20 PM 2002 Views
Re: Hero of the book? - 12/07/2011 11:50:29 PM 1985 Views
Ohh, so that was what that was about. - 17/07/2011 07:08:19 PM 2021 Views
That's what I thought too. - 25/07/2011 01:48:50 AM 2020 Views
Victorian Greyjoy = Hero of the book *NM* - 21/07/2011 06:20:25 AM 1158 Views
Asshole of the book? - 12/07/2011 10:46:10 PM 2196 Views
Agreed. - 12/07/2011 11:18:07 PM 2132 Views
Yeah, little doubt there. - 17/07/2011 07:09:53 PM 1972 Views
Seriously... - 18/07/2011 03:07:47 AM 1970 Views
Daenerys Targaryen & lifetime achievement award to Lord Rickard Stark - 17/08/2011 12:38:40 AM 1917 Views
Idiot of the book. - 12/07/2011 11:21:51 PM 2226 Views
lol yep, definitely *NM* - 13/07/2011 08:12:42 AM 1093 Views
Re: Idiot of the book. - 17/07/2011 12:42:20 AM 2082 Views
Wait... no she doesn't! - 17/07/2011 01:29:52 AM 1998 Views
She thinks both - 18/07/2011 12:22:59 AM 1928 Views
So... - 17/07/2011 07:18:24 PM 1950 Views
No, it's him. - 18/07/2011 12:25:33 AM 1939 Views
Is there any hot sex scenes? I won't be able to read it for a while *NM* - 13/07/2011 02:35:49 PM 1170 Views
One or two, but not all that long ones *NM* - 13/07/2011 02:57:12 PM 1123 Views
Great Ending - 14/07/2011 01:21:53 AM 2229 Views
Really? - 14/07/2011 09:36:01 AM 2162 Views
Re: Really? - 14/07/2011 09:38:34 AM 1804 Views
Re: Great Ending - 18/07/2011 02:05:00 AM 1956 Views
YES! - 14/07/2011 02:38:48 AM 1796 Views
Sorry for the n00b reply, sentiments still apply - 16/07/2011 07:27:43 PM 1948 Views
Re: Sorry for the n00b reply, sentiments still apply - 17/07/2011 12:45:52 AM 1927 Views
I don't know what to think... (spoiler) - 14/07/2011 08:59:39 AM 2149 Views
Probably not. - 14/07/2011 09:19:03 AM 2136 Views
Re: Probably not. - 14/07/2011 03:57:55 PM 1971 Views
I think the two are mixed up. - 14/07/2011 11:23:06 PM 2051 Views
Re: I think the two are mixed up. - 18/07/2011 02:10:29 AM 1893 Views
What made least sense for me as far as that is concerned... - 14/07/2011 11:51:20 AM 2032 Views
They didn't. - 14/07/2011 11:24:53 PM 2063 Views
I see - 15/07/2011 08:28:09 AM 1985 Views
Didn't Jon just announced - 26/07/2011 02:51:07 AM 1941 Views
Something I totally missed first time through - 14/07/2011 09:40:33 AM 2345 Views
Re: Something I totally missed first time through - 16/07/2011 01:24:23 AM 2260 Views
Yep, that's what he said/thought - 17/07/2011 05:02:32 AM 2075 Views
Re: Something I totally missed first time through - 23/07/2011 04:14:38 PM 1924 Views
Well that brings new meaning - 26/07/2011 02:53:18 AM 1844 Views
I'm still not fully done, but about the Reek chapters... - 14/07/2011 04:05:29 PM 2062 Views
Agreed - 14/07/2011 06:18:15 PM 2083 Views
There's another... - 14/07/2011 07:16:11 PM 1894 Views
There's that... - 17/07/2011 01:12:33 AM 1947 Views
It's worse than that... - 17/07/2011 01:26:50 AM 1970 Views
Torture is wrong, and those chapters kinda proved it. *NM* - 26/07/2011 02:53:55 AM 1072 Views
Having finished the book, my thoughts. (Spoilers) - 16/07/2011 08:11:30 AM 2071 Views
Re: Having finished the book, my thoughts. (Spoilers) - 17/07/2011 01:02:10 AM 2015 Views
You put words to my thoughts exactly. - 18/08/2011 09:17:09 PM 1923 Views
It should be re-titled A Jump with Sharks - 17/07/2011 06:00:37 PM 2141 Views
Publishers are more interested in the bottom line. - 18/07/2011 12:31:56 AM 1908 Views
Sadly, I am likely overestimating the intelligence of the readers. - 18/07/2011 03:05:12 AM 2126 Views
I felt bummed by Sanderson's new series. - 18/07/2011 05:25:09 AM 1978 Views
I bought that book but have yet to read it. - 18/07/2011 01:09:15 PM 1929 Views
Re: I bought that book but have yet to read it. - 20/07/2011 06:45:46 AM 1936 Views
You might like this quote from House of Leaves by Mark Z Danielewski. - 11/08/2011 03:42:05 PM 2031 Views
I'm afraid I have to agree with what seems to be the majority opinion... - 17/07/2011 07:35:47 PM 2063 Views
And on a different note entirely: is it me, or did the book need more proofreading? - 17/07/2011 07:39:15 PM 1951 Views
Yeah, I agree. - 18/07/2011 05:59:58 PM 2000 Views
The book really shows it is AFFC part 2 - 26/07/2011 03:00:07 AM 1973 Views
Am I The Only One In Love With Arya's Chapters? *spoilers maybe* - 18/07/2011 02:22:00 AM 1984 Views
I enjoyed them, very solid chapters. - 18/07/2011 12:50:43 PM 2022 Views
Unlike others, I won't start a separate thread to express my thoughts - 19/07/2011 11:21:17 AM 2133 Views
Yeah, I wished there was a way to move them in here! - 19/07/2011 01:42:51 PM 1891 Views
Me too... but going and complaining about them seems so lame, too. - 19/07/2011 07:34:47 PM 1894 Views
I agree with Jens, good balanced review. *NM* - 19/07/2011 07:50:13 PM 1057 Views
I think you let him off too easily. - 20/07/2011 04:19:07 AM 2026 Views
Your review is a little too generous (in my opinion) - 20/07/2011 06:57:45 AM 2195 Views
I find myself both depressed and let down... - 20/07/2011 06:37:16 AM 2315 Views
Am I the only one who really likes... - 20/07/2011 06:04:00 PM 2136 Views
yeh, he is nice... *NM* - 20/07/2011 06:20:13 PM 1050 Views
Davos is probably my favourite - 20/07/2011 09:51:03 PM 1793 Views
The six bodies fired by the trebuchet - 20/07/2011 10:36:16 PM 1985 Views
Yes, I was confused by that too. - 20/07/2011 10:53:35 PM 1909 Views
Probably pale mare victims. Seige warfare via plague - 20/07/2011 11:23:10 PM 1965 Views
Yes, I considered that as well... - 20/07/2011 11:48:32 PM 1917 Views
Have Quentyn's two mates already been sent off a this point? - 21/07/2011 02:03:15 PM 1975 Views
That could be it. *NM* - 21/07/2011 01:43:16 PM 968 Views
Stannis - 21/07/2011 08:43:40 AM 1935 Views
It's entirely possible Stannis was killed - 21/07/2011 02:09:10 PM 2013 Views
I highly doubt he's dead - 21/07/2011 07:29:59 PM 1970 Views
The bluff makes the most sense: if the Boltons beat Stannis, why does he ask for Theon & Jeyne? - 22/07/2011 12:01:30 AM 2032 Views
Yeah... - 22/07/2011 12:27:53 AM 1933 Views
The Aegon Twist. Something about this doesn't add up. - 21/07/2011 10:43:43 PM 2010 Views
Re: The Aegon Twist. Something about this doesn't add up. - 22/07/2011 05:42:13 PM 2105 Views
Alternatively.. - 22/07/2011 09:13:46 PM 1946 Views
Which gods do you think are "real" in Martin's world? - 22/07/2011 04:32:39 PM 1991 Views
None of them. - 22/07/2011 06:25:19 PM 1885 Views
Is that personal opinion or based on something Martin said? *NM* - 22/07/2011 06:37:57 PM 1059 Views
Opinion - 22/07/2011 07:43:16 PM 1927 Views
I think there are some god's, just given different names. Same with the magic. - 22/07/2011 09:24:51 PM 1922 Views
Lose the apostrophe in the subject line. Then: on what basis do you assume this? - 23/07/2011 02:28:49 AM 1950 Views
You might want to stop wasting time correcting others typos. As for the gods... - 23/07/2011 04:53:59 AM 1836 Views
You might want to stop making them. Particularly glaring ones like that. - 23/07/2011 05:01:03 AM 2005 Views
A typo can't be "glaring"... - 23/07/2011 08:08:51 AM 1889 Views
Sure it can. Glaring: conspicuous or obvious. - 23/07/2011 03:52:57 PM 1901 Views
Morality stems from god? - 22/07/2011 10:47:59 PM 1901 Views
Of course it does - 23/07/2011 02:26:50 AM 1877 Views
On second thought, let's address the issue directly. - 23/07/2011 05:14:59 AM 1976 Views
Perhaps... - 24/07/2011 07:03:24 PM 1921 Views
Its simple... - 24/07/2011 07:37:11 PM 1925 Views
I disagree... - 25/07/2011 04:10:04 AM 1985 Views
Bullshit. - 25/07/2011 05:44:41 AM 1863 Views
Re: Bullshit. - 25/07/2011 06:27:09 AM 1771 Views
Some thoughts... - 25/07/2011 04:54:05 AM 1881 Views
It's not an objective morality. - 25/07/2011 05:41:33 AM 1876 Views
Its not that simple... - 25/07/2011 06:21:39 AM 1933 Views
I don't disagree with most of what you said. I just reach a different conclusion. - 25/07/2011 01:57:31 PM 1862 Views
Well... - 25/07/2011 05:02:45 PM 1883 Views
How then do you deal with the Euthyphro dilemma? - 16/08/2011 01:43:18 PM 1747 Views
Re: Which gods do you think are "real" in Martin's world? - 25/07/2011 02:24:07 PM 1807 Views
Whats the best new POV - 26/07/2011 03:14:05 AM 1928 Views
Barristan - 26/07/2011 12:23:20 PM 1893 Views
Didn't Aeron "Damphair" Greyjoy also only have 2 POVs - 26/07/2011 03:56:57 PM 1971 Views
Agreed. *NM* - 26/07/2011 11:33:11 PM 1093 Views
thirded. - 27/07/2011 04:16:26 PM 1769 Views
Absolutely *NM* - 29/07/2011 02:31:54 AM 1180 Views
Things you missed till they were pointed out via others or via a reread - 26/07/2011 03:23:53 AM 2073 Views
A bit. - 26/07/2011 12:32:32 PM 2042 Views
- 26/07/2011 03:46:54 PM 1986 Views
Re: - 27/07/2011 12:43:43 AM 1922 Views
Martin doesn't have to do anything - 27/07/2011 01:33:36 AM 2007 Views
Re: Martin doesn't have to do anything - 27/07/2011 04:38:19 AM 1880 Views
Re: Martin doesn't have to do anything - 27/07/2011 08:58:55 AM 1804 Views
Re: - 27/07/2011 04:27:18 AM 1990 Views
I like your theory. - 27/07/2011 04:35:22 PM 2004 Views
Interesting... hadn't noticed some of those either. - 26/07/2011 11:32:18 PM 2002 Views
Re: Interesting... hadn't noticed some of those either. - 27/07/2011 02:00:42 AM 1892 Views
Eh? - 29/07/2011 04:44:17 PM 2005 Views
This is complicated. - 31/07/2011 10:43:15 PM 2208 Views
Wait...a woman crowned for beauty was the victorious mystery knight? - 01/08/2011 03:00:49 AM 1904 Views
It is believed the Knight of the Laughing Tree is one of two people - 01/08/2011 04:47:21 AM 1952 Views
Yup. - 02/08/2011 12:03:26 AM 1843 Views
Also... - 02/08/2011 07:17:43 AM 1946 Views
And yet, my huge brain figures it out - 04/08/2011 04:20:06 PM 1915 Views
I've read this scene yesterday and I missed this... - 02/08/2011 07:55:35 AM 1939 Views
Allow me - 05/08/2011 02:14:15 PM 1791 Views
thanks *NM* - 07/08/2011 07:28:21 AM 1044 Views
I thought this was pretty clear - 07/08/2011 05:18:54 PM 1820 Views
Hizdahr a Harpy? Innocent or Not? - 26/07/2011 03:36:56 AM 2214 Views
Interesting idea. - 26/07/2011 12:25:11 PM 2019 Views
Re: Interesting idea. - 27/07/2011 04:25:02 PM 1942 Views
What is happening with the Maesters subplot? Any new leads? - 26/07/2011 04:13:27 PM 1932 Views
Re: What is happening with the Maesters subplot? Any new leads? - 27/07/2011 12:49:52 AM 2138 Views
Re: What is happening with the Maesters subplot? Any new leads? - 27/07/2011 03:49:18 AM 2040 Views
Re: A Dance with Dragons discussion thread - 29/07/2011 01:42:57 AM 2125 Views
Okay. I suck. - 29/07/2011 01:50:56 AM 1862 Views
Let me rephrase that... - 29/07/2011 01:54:07 AM 1839 Views
Jon Snow is definitely Azor Ahai. - 29/07/2011 07:31:17 PM 2445 Views
Hmm - 31/07/2011 01:52:03 PM 2367 Views
you are correct - 31/07/2011 11:08:39 PM 1940 Views
Yup. - 31/07/2011 10:49:34 PM 1757 Views
But Shireen is a dragon... - 01/08/2011 12:22:16 AM 1952 Views
I'm uncertain about that - 01/08/2011 05:35:18 AM 1922 Views
True, but I wouldn't read too much into that. - 01/08/2011 11:42:29 PM 2187 Views
Where did he say that? - 02/08/2011 07:18:39 AM 2066 Views
In interviews - 02/08/2011 02:21:28 PM 2019 Views
A little thought about Jon... - 02/08/2011 08:02:34 AM 2085 Views
Excellent point. - 02/08/2011 02:22:22 PM 2005 Views
Am I the only one who thinks... - 09/08/2011 05:16:46 PM 2035 Views
I think Martin's gonna stick to Bran being the only one who does that - 10/08/2011 09:25:12 AM 2093 Views
Anyone have any thoughts as to the purpose of Arya's storyline? - 14/08/2011 06:28:09 PM 1942 Views
She's being trained as an assassin, so the question is who is she going to kill? - 16/08/2011 01:43:12 AM 1875 Views
Jon? - 18/08/2011 09:59:03 PM 1914 Views

Reply to Message