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Re: I have to disagree in regards to Penny, she's a plot device and an annoying one at that. Timthetrolloc Send a noteboard - 21/07/2011 09:33:00 AM


On a related note, I really like the new character Penny. No major player of course, but really lovable, naive and sweet. I hope she sticks around for a bit and Tyrion can watch out for her. If there is one thing I dislike about the series it is how easily interesting minor characters disappear (Bronn, for example).



Tyrion is depressed and suicidal for most of this book, but her innocence serves as a counterpoint to that downward spiral (like a conscience, as you say). My guess is that she will either die or be seriously injured, which will propel Tyrion's character arc. She isn't that well-developed as a character in my opinion, so I think that is her fate, to serve the development of Tyrion's character. I am totally open to hearing arguments to the contrary though.

The truth is, Penny running into Tyrion is so utterly contrived. Westeros and Essos are giant places. The odds of her running into Tyrion are so low that it is rather unbelievable that she happens to end up exactly where he is. Literally she ends up a few dining tables away from him as opposed to any other place in the entire world. It was already coincidental enough when Jorah just happens to be at the same place that Tyrion is. But now the jousting dwarf as well? Will they run into Tysha next?

Personally I love how it points out Tyrion's hypocrisy when it comes to the sexual attraction thing. For all Tyrions moaning about never being desired by beautiful women because he is a dwarf, he sure does not seem too eager to jump in the sack with Penny, his fellow dwarf, for exactly the same reason. You know if she had been a tall blonde Lyseni he would have been all over her in a minute, no matter how childish and innocent she was.


I think you got that wrong. Tyrion respects more than just ugly women's innocence. Sansa was a beautiful maiden and rather innocent and he didn't take advantage of her even though he was ordered too. He prefers someone who actually likes him for himself(Tysha) or someone who can at least be somewhat convincing like a "whore". Though whores probably won't do it for him now and he did his best too not pull away mortified that a ugly dwarf woman was kissing him. He is not a Hypocrite in his actions at all. He has more honor than any Lannister now that his uncle Kevan is dead.
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A Dance with Dragons discussion thread Legolas - 11/07/2011 10:48:23 PM 6157 Views
Okay, first impressions. Basically spoiler-free, I suppose. ironclad - 11/07/2011 11:40:31 PM 1704 Views
I have it! *NM* fionwe1987 - 12/07/2011 05:42:27 AM 921 Views
A general question to get the discussion started: will two more books be enough? RandAllThor - 12/07/2011 02:22:52 PM 1925 Views
A very good question *major spoilers, then* ironclad - 12/07/2011 02:55:05 PM 1895 Views
Oh, come on. If anyone can do it, Martin can. Tom - 15/07/2011 03:48:27 AM 1593 Views
It'll be tight. Werthead - 12/07/2011 04:32:39 PM 1893 Views
What does "resurrection-as-PWWP Jon" mean? Got it - Prince Who Was Promised! Sir Tybalt - 18/08/2011 08:59:44 PM 1782 Views
No but I think 3 will be possible Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:15:02 AM 1712 Views
what is Purple Wedding? *NM* aragornital - 27/07/2011 08:37:04 AM 819 Views
Joffrey and Margaery wedding Roland00 - 27/07/2011 04:26:04 PM 1747 Views
Hero of the book? Werthead - 12/07/2011 10:12:02 PM 2017 Views
Lord Manderly gets my vote. RandAllThor - 12/07/2011 10:41:19 PM 1842 Views
Re: Hero of the book? ironclad - 12/07/2011 10:43:20 PM 1708 Views
Re: Hero of the book? ClubCaved - 12/07/2011 11:50:29 PM 1711 Views
Ohh, so that was what that was about. Legolas - 17/07/2011 07:08:19 PM 1714 Views
That's what I thought too. Jessie - 25/07/2011 01:48:50 AM 1732 Views
Victorian Greyjoy = Hero of the book *NM* Urza - 21/07/2011 06:20:25 AM 975 Views
Barristan should be renamed as Ser Grandfather, you do not mess with Ser Grandfather *NM* Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:32:09 AM 973 Views
Asshole of the book? ironclad - 12/07/2011 10:46:10 PM 1907 Views
Agreed. Werthead - 12/07/2011 11:18:07 PM 1854 Views
Seconded. He'd probably make my short list of Assholes of the Series to date. *NM* RandAllThor - 12/07/2011 11:25:04 PM 869 Views
Yeah, little doubt there. Legolas - 17/07/2011 07:09:53 PM 1689 Views
Seriously... Urza - 18/07/2011 03:07:47 AM 1666 Views
Daenerys Targaryen & lifetime achievement award to Lord Rickard Stark Cannoli - 17/08/2011 12:38:40 AM 1619 Views
Idiot of the book. Werthead - 12/07/2011 11:21:51 PM 1949 Views
lol yep, definitely *NM* ironclad - 13/07/2011 08:12:42 AM 908 Views
Re: Idiot of the book. Zaphod - 17/07/2011 12:42:20 AM 1780 Views
I think readers are being too hard on Quentyn, If anything I think Doran derserves more mocking. Libby - 17/07/2011 01:09:35 AM 2121 Views
Wait... no she doesn't! fionwe1987 - 17/07/2011 01:29:52 AM 1713 Views
She thinks both Werthead - 18/07/2011 12:22:59 AM 1621 Views
So... Legolas - 17/07/2011 07:18:24 PM 1661 Views
No, it's him. Werthead - 18/07/2011 12:25:33 AM 1659 Views
Is there any hot sex scenes? I won't be able to read it for a while *NM* Dark Knight - 13/07/2011 02:35:49 PM 1012 Views
One or two, but not all that long ones *NM* ironclad - 13/07/2011 02:57:12 PM 962 Views
Great Ending ClubCaved - 14/07/2011 01:21:53 AM 1951 Views
Really? ironclad - 14/07/2011 09:36:01 AM 1869 Views
Re: Really? Werthead - 14/07/2011 09:38:34 AM 1550 Views
Re: Great Ending samgreenaway - 18/07/2011 02:05:00 AM 1672 Views
YES! Larry - 14/07/2011 02:38:48 AM 1519 Views
Sorry for the n00b reply, sentiments still apply Stephen - 16/07/2011 07:27:43 PM 1669 Views
Re: Sorry for the n00b reply, sentiments still apply Zaphod - 17/07/2011 12:45:52 AM 1626 Views
I don't know what to think... (spoiler) aragornital - 14/07/2011 08:59:39 AM 1865 Views
Probably not. Werthead - 14/07/2011 09:19:03 AM 1862 Views
Re: Probably not. aragornital - 14/07/2011 03:57:55 PM 1696 Views
I think the two are mixed up. Werthead - 14/07/2011 11:23:06 PM 1768 Views
Re: I think the two are mixed up. samgreenaway - 18/07/2011 02:10:29 AM 1610 Views
What made least sense for me as far as that is concerned... ironclad - 14/07/2011 11:51:20 AM 1740 Views
They didn't. Werthead - 14/07/2011 11:24:53 PM 1787 Views
I see ironclad - 15/07/2011 08:28:09 AM 1701 Views
Didn't Jon just announced Roland00 - 26/07/2011 02:51:07 AM 1670 Views
Something I totally missed first time through Werthead - 14/07/2011 09:40:33 AM 2049 Views
Re: Something I totally missed first time through Cannoli - 16/07/2011 01:24:23 AM 1978 Views
Yep, that's what he said/thought A Deathwatch Guard - 17/07/2011 05:02:32 AM 1783 Views
Re: Something I totally missed first time through Jessie - 23/07/2011 04:14:38 PM 1627 Views
Well that brings new meaning Roland00 - 26/07/2011 02:53:18 AM 1556 Views
I'm still not fully done, but about the Reek chapters... fionwe1987 - 14/07/2011 04:05:29 PM 1788 Views
Agreed ironclad - 14/07/2011 06:18:15 PM 1794 Views
There's another... fionwe1987 - 14/07/2011 07:16:11 PM 1608 Views
There's that... Legolas - 17/07/2011 01:12:33 AM 1654 Views
It's worse than that... fionwe1987 - 17/07/2011 01:26:50 AM 1693 Views
Torture is wrong, and those chapters kinda proved it. *NM* Roland00 - 26/07/2011 02:53:55 AM 907 Views
GRRM completely shit the bed on Jon's arc within this book. That's the truth. Libby - 16/07/2011 12:51:08 AM 1836 Views
Having finished the book, my thoughts. (Spoilers) Variant - 16/07/2011 08:11:30 AM 1795 Views
Re: Having finished the book, my thoughts. (Spoilers) Zaphod - 17/07/2011 01:02:10 AM 1728 Views
Personally, I felt 'A Feast for Crows' was not only better written but more condensed. Libby - 17/07/2011 11:15:58 AM 1776 Views
Summed up like that there is no way to disagree with what you said ironclad - 17/07/2011 11:33:01 AM 1761 Views
You put words to my thoughts exactly. Sir Tybalt - 18/08/2011 09:17:09 PM 1648 Views
It should be re-titled A Jump with Sharks Tom - 17/07/2011 06:00:37 PM 1831 Views
Publishers are more interested in the bottom line. Werthead - 18/07/2011 12:31:56 AM 1623 Views
Sadly, I am likely overestimating the intelligence of the readers. Tom - 18/07/2011 03:05:12 AM 1837 Views
I felt bummed by Sanderson's new series. everynametaken - 18/07/2011 05:25:09 AM 1680 Views
I bought that book but have yet to read it. Tom - 18/07/2011 01:09:15 PM 1618 Views
Re: I bought that book but have yet to read it. Zach - 20/07/2011 06:45:46 AM 1652 Views
You might like this quote from House of Leaves by Mark Z Danielewski. heartbreak - 11/08/2011 03:42:05 PM 1704 Views
I'm afraid I have to agree with what seems to be the majority opinion... Legolas - 17/07/2011 07:35:47 PM 1738 Views
And on a different note entirely: is it me, or did the book need more proofreading? Legolas - 17/07/2011 07:39:15 PM 1675 Views
Re: And on a different note entirely: is it me, or did the book need more proofreading? samgreenaway - 18/07/2011 02:17:41 AM 1812 Views
Yeah, I agree. Stephen - 18/07/2011 05:59:58 PM 1727 Views
The book really shows it is AFFC part 2 Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:00:07 AM 1686 Views
No doubt, much like readers would've been more forgiving of aFfC if it'd been two years after SoS. Legolas - 26/07/2011 11:28:43 PM 1716 Views
Am I The Only One In Love With Arya's Chapters? *spoilers maybe* samgreenaway - 18/07/2011 02:22:00 AM 1719 Views
I enjoyed them, very solid chapters. Libby - 18/07/2011 12:50:43 PM 1745 Views
Unlike others, I won't start a separate thread to express my thoughts Larry - 19/07/2011 11:21:17 AM 1832 Views
Yeah, I wished there was a way to move them in here! ironclad - 19/07/2011 01:42:51 PM 1598 Views
Me too... but going and complaining about them seems so lame, too. Legolas - 19/07/2011 07:34:47 PM 1598 Views
I agree with Jens, good balanced review. *NM* Legolas - 19/07/2011 07:50:13 PM 892 Views
I think you let him off too easily. Tom - 20/07/2011 04:19:07 AM 1740 Views
It might be that I expected even more of a longeur than what happened Larry - 20/07/2011 05:24:50 PM 1694 Views
Your review is a little too generous (in my opinion) Libby - 20/07/2011 06:57:45 AM 1906 Views
I find myself both depressed and let down... Zach - 20/07/2011 06:37:16 AM 2000 Views
Am I the only one who really likes... ironclad - 20/07/2011 06:04:00 PM 1795 Views
yeh, he is nice... *NM* aragornital - 20/07/2011 06:20:13 PM 889 Views
Davos is probably my favourite Stephen - 20/07/2011 09:51:03 PM 1528 Views
I have to disagree in regards to Penny, she's a plot device and an annoying one at that. Variant - 21/07/2011 01:15:33 AM 1829 Views
Re: I have to disagree in regards to Penny, she's a plot device and an annoying one at that. Timthetrolloc - 21/07/2011 09:33:00 AM 1664 Views
The six bodies fired by the trebuchet Stephen - 20/07/2011 10:36:16 PM 1703 Views
Yes, I was confused by that too. Legolas - 20/07/2011 10:53:35 PM 1613 Views
Probably pale mare victims. Seige warfare via plague Urza - 20/07/2011 11:23:10 PM 1677 Views
Yes, I considered that as well... Legolas - 20/07/2011 11:48:32 PM 1656 Views
Have Quentyn's two mates already been sent off a this point? ironclad - 21/07/2011 02:03:15 PM 1700 Views
That could be it. *NM* Stephen - 21/07/2011 01:43:16 PM 795 Views
It's not six bodies, it's six trebuchets throwing corpses instead of stones DomA - 27/07/2011 01:03:51 AM 1740 Views
That's how I read it as well. Six trebuchets opening up. *NM* Michael - 11/08/2011 12:19:09 PM 887 Views
Stannis ironclad - 21/07/2011 08:43:40 AM 1657 Views
It's entirely possible Stannis was killed Tom - 21/07/2011 02:09:10 PM 1749 Views
I highly doubt he's dead A Deathwatch Guard - 21/07/2011 07:29:59 PM 1685 Views
The bluff makes the most sense: if the Boltons beat Stannis, why does he ask for Theon & Jeyne? Cannoli - 22/07/2011 12:01:30 AM 1753 Views
Yeah... Urza - 22/07/2011 12:27:53 AM 1638 Views
The letter sounded like the ravings of a psychopath loosing control DomA - 27/07/2011 02:56:21 AM 1799 Views
The Aegon Twist. Something about this doesn't add up. Libby - 21/07/2011 10:43:43 PM 1750 Views
Re: The Aegon Twist. Something about this doesn't add up. Werthead - 22/07/2011 05:42:13 PM 1825 Views
Alternatively.. fionwe1987 - 22/07/2011 09:13:46 PM 1646 Views
Which gods do you think are "real" in Martin's world? Tom - 22/07/2011 04:32:39 PM 1695 Views
None of them. Werthead - 22/07/2011 06:25:19 PM 1623 Views
Is that personal opinion or based on something Martin said? *NM* Tom - 22/07/2011 06:37:57 PM 890 Views
Opinion Werthead - 22/07/2011 07:43:16 PM 1642 Views
Regardless of whether or not they actually get involved, their existence (or not) is signficant. Tom - 23/07/2011 02:17:48 AM 1495 Views
I think there are some god's, just given different names. Same with the magic. fionwe1987 - 22/07/2011 09:24:51 PM 1625 Views
Lose the apostrophe in the subject line. Then: on what basis do you assume this? Tom - 23/07/2011 02:28:49 AM 1706 Views
You might want to stop wasting time correcting others typos. As for the gods... fionwe1987 - 23/07/2011 04:53:59 AM 1547 Views
You might want to stop making them. Particularly glaring ones like that. Tom - 23/07/2011 05:01:03 AM 1731 Views
A typo can't be "glaring"... fionwe1987 - 23/07/2011 08:08:51 AM 1607 Views
Sure it can. Glaring: conspicuous or obvious. Tom - 23/07/2011 03:52:57 PM 1616 Views
Morality stems from god? A Deathwatch Guard - 22/07/2011 10:47:59 PM 1622 Views
Of course it does Tom - 23/07/2011 02:26:50 AM 1612 Views
On second thought, let's address the issue directly. Tom - 23/07/2011 05:14:59 AM 1689 Views
Perhaps... A Deathwatch Guard - 24/07/2011 07:03:24 PM 1637 Views
Its simple... Urza - 24/07/2011 07:37:11 PM 1623 Views
I disagree... fionwe1987 - 25/07/2011 04:10:04 AM 1711 Views
Bullshit. Tom - 25/07/2011 05:44:41 AM 1580 Views
Re: Bullshit. fionwe1987 - 25/07/2011 06:27:09 AM 1491 Views
The Seven probably has more power and influence than any other religion though. Werthead - 25/07/2011 07:51:59 PM 1532 Views
In Westeros, but I always got the feeling the Free Cities and other places didn't much care for them A Deathwatch Guard - 26/07/2011 10:53:45 PM 1633 Views
Westeros is the biggest coherent civilisation in the ASoIaF world. Werthead - 27/07/2011 12:56:21 AM 1671 Views
Some thoughts... fionwe1987 - 25/07/2011 04:54:05 AM 1596 Views
It's not an objective morality. Tom - 25/07/2011 05:41:33 AM 1601 Views
Its not that simple... fionwe1987 - 25/07/2011 06:21:39 AM 1653 Views
I don't disagree with most of what you said. I just reach a different conclusion. Tom - 25/07/2011 01:57:31 PM 1592 Views
Well... fionwe1987 - 25/07/2011 05:02:45 PM 1588 Views
How then do you deal with the Euthyphro dilemma? Tim - 16/08/2011 01:43:18 PM 1483 Views
Re: Which gods do you think are "real" in Martin's world? aragornital - 25/07/2011 02:24:07 PM 1560 Views
Whats the best new POV Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:14:05 AM 1649 Views
Barristan Werthead - 26/07/2011 12:23:20 PM 1615 Views
Didn't Aeron "Damphair" Greyjoy also only have 2 POVs Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:56:57 PM 1675 Views
Agreed. *NM* Legolas - 26/07/2011 11:33:11 PM 924 Views
thirded. Jessie - 27/07/2011 04:16:26 PM 1467 Views
Absolutely *NM* ironclad - 29/07/2011 02:31:54 AM 967 Views
Things you missed till they were pointed out via others or via a reread Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:23:53 AM 1805 Views
A bit. Werthead - 26/07/2011 12:32:32 PM 1768 Views
Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:46:54 PM 1703 Views
Re: Werthead - 27/07/2011 12:43:43 AM 1617 Views
Martin doesn't have to do anything Roland00 - 27/07/2011 01:33:36 AM 1703 Views
Re: Martin doesn't have to do anything DomA - 27/07/2011 04:38:19 AM 1612 Views
The crone who prophesied the stallion who mounts the world saw the stallions face Roland00 - 27/07/2011 05:13:28 AM 1720 Views
Re: Martin doesn't have to do anything aragornital - 27/07/2011 08:58:55 AM 1532 Views
Re: DomA - 27/07/2011 04:27:18 AM 1714 Views
I like your theory. Jessie - 27/07/2011 04:35:22 PM 1708 Views
Interesting... hadn't noticed some of those either. Legolas - 26/07/2011 11:32:18 PM 1708 Views
Re: Interesting... hadn't noticed some of those either. Roland00 - 27/07/2011 02:00:42 AM 1623 Views
Eh? Elaine - 29/07/2011 04:44:17 PM 1719 Views
This is complicated. Werthead - 31/07/2011 10:43:15 PM 1923 Views
Wait...a woman crowned for beauty was the victorious mystery knight? Tom - 01/08/2011 03:00:49 AM 1632 Views
It is believed the Knight of the Laughing Tree is one of two people Roland00 - 01/08/2011 04:47:21 AM 1665 Views
Yup. Werthead - 02/08/2011 12:03:26 AM 1564 Views
Also... fionwe1987 - 02/08/2011 07:17:43 AM 1665 Views
And yet, my huge brain figures it out Elaine - 04/08/2011 04:20:06 PM 1637 Views
I've read this scene yesterday and I missed this... aragornital - 02/08/2011 07:55:35 AM 1644 Views
Allow me Elaine - 05/08/2011 02:14:15 PM 1520 Views
thanks *NM* aragornital - 07/08/2011 07:28:21 AM 880 Views
I thought this was pretty clear HousealThor - 07/08/2011 05:18:54 PM 1540 Views
Hizdahr a Harpy? Innocent or Not? Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:36:56 AM 1935 Views
Interesting idea. Werthead - 26/07/2011 12:25:11 PM 1730 Views
Re: Interesting idea. Jessie - 27/07/2011 04:25:02 PM 1647 Views
What is happening with the Maesters subplot? Any new leads? Roland00 - 26/07/2011 04:13:27 PM 1662 Views
Re: What is happening with the Maesters subplot? Any new leads? Werthead - 27/07/2011 12:49:52 AM 1850 Views
Re: What is happening with the Maesters subplot? Any new leads? DomA - 27/07/2011 03:49:18 AM 1767 Views
Re: A Dance with Dragons discussion thread jwk - 29/07/2011 01:42:57 AM 1773 Views
Okay. I suck. jwk - 29/07/2011 01:50:56 AM 1565 Views
Let me rephrase that... jwk - 29/07/2011 01:54:07 AM 1548 Views
Jon Snow is definitely Azor Ahai. Kotagg - 29/07/2011 07:31:17 PM 2171 Views
Hmm ironclad - 31/07/2011 01:52:03 PM 1912 Views
you are correct Jim - 31/07/2011 11:08:39 PM 1625 Views
Yup. Werthead - 31/07/2011 10:49:34 PM 1493 Views
But Shireen is a dragon... fionwe1987 - 01/08/2011 12:22:16 AM 1676 Views
I'm uncertain about that Larry - 01/08/2011 05:35:18 AM 1627 Views
True, but I wouldn't read too much into that. Werthead - 01/08/2011 11:42:29 PM 1909 Views
Where did he say that? fionwe1987 - 02/08/2011 07:18:39 AM 1749 Views
In interviews Werthead - 02/08/2011 02:21:28 PM 1736 Views
A little thought about Jon... aragornital - 02/08/2011 08:02:34 AM 1804 Views
Excellent point. Werthead - 02/08/2011 02:22:22 PM 1718 Views
Am I the only one who thinks... The Doctor - 09/08/2011 05:16:46 PM 1729 Views
I think Martin's gonna stick to Bran being the only one who does that ironclad - 10/08/2011 09:25:12 AM 1656 Views
It's possible, the problem is Jon's warging skill isn't all that well developed. Libby - 10/08/2011 10:53:32 PM 1631 Views
Anyone have any thoughts as to the purpose of Arya's storyline? Chas - 14/08/2011 06:28:09 PM 1641 Views
She's being trained as an assassin, so the question is who is she going to kill? Werthead - 16/08/2011 01:43:12 AM 1567 Views
Jon? Sir Tybalt - 18/08/2011 09:59:03 PM 1615 Views
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