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The bluff makes the most sense: if the Boltons beat Stannis, why does he ask for Theon & Jeyne? Cannoli Send a noteboard - 22/07/2011 12:01:30 AM
That could also explain why it is Ramsay and not Roose that sends Jon the letter. And the bluff could just be a way of trying to gather allies through fear, before anyone can learn of how weakened house Bolton has become.


Maybe he's lying and simply takes his victory for granted, with the usual arrogance of Martin uber-villains who assume everything will happen the way they want (i.e. Viserys, Cersei, Joffrey). Theon & Jeyne were with Stannis' host, and in no condition to evade pursuit or detection with actual northmen tracking them, even if Asha helped them run. Yes, he caught Mance and the spearwives, but we knew that already, but that's all he knew. Anything else he "revealed" in the letter is public knowledge, and the letter just about screams his desperation. Perhaps he even DID win a fight or force Stannis to retreat leaving Lightbringer stuck in a Dreadfort or Frey corpse, but without Ned's daughter, is losing his grip on his northern allies and is trying to bluff Jon into giving up some people he can use as trophies to display his dominance or success, or gain an edge over Stannis.
Cannoli
"Sometimes unhinged, sometimes unfair, always entertaining"
- The Crownless

“Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.” GK Chesteron
Deus Vult!
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A Dance with Dragons discussion thread Legolas - 11/07/2011 10:48:23 PM 6658 Views
Okay, first impressions. Basically spoiler-free, I suppose. ironclad - 11/07/2011 11:40:31 PM 2204 Views
I have it! *NM* fionwe1987 - 12/07/2011 05:42:27 AM 1193 Views
A general question to get the discussion started: will two more books be enough? RandAllThor - 12/07/2011 02:22:52 PM 2404 Views
A very good question *major spoilers, then* ironclad - 12/07/2011 02:55:05 PM 2361 Views
Oh, come on. If anyone can do it, Martin can. Tom - 15/07/2011 03:48:27 AM 2066 Views
It'll be tight. Werthead - 12/07/2011 04:32:39 PM 2397 Views
What does "resurrection-as-PWWP Jon" mean? Got it - Prince Who Was Promised! Sir Tybalt - 18/08/2011 08:59:44 PM 2289 Views
No but I think 3 will be possible Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:15:02 AM 2181 Views
what is Purple Wedding? *NM* aragornital - 27/07/2011 08:37:04 AM 1081 Views
Joffrey and Margaery wedding Roland00 - 27/07/2011 04:26:04 PM 2224 Views
Hero of the book? Werthead - 12/07/2011 10:12:02 PM 2510 Views
Lord Manderly gets my vote. RandAllThor - 12/07/2011 10:41:19 PM 2288 Views
Re: Hero of the book? ironclad - 12/07/2011 10:43:20 PM 2182 Views
Re: Hero of the book? ClubCaved - 12/07/2011 11:50:29 PM 2182 Views
Ohh, so that was what that was about. Legolas - 17/07/2011 07:08:19 PM 2242 Views
That's what I thought too. Jessie - 25/07/2011 01:48:50 AM 2204 Views
Victorian Greyjoy = Hero of the book *NM* Urza - 21/07/2011 06:20:25 AM 1263 Views
Barristan should be renamed as Ser Grandfather, you do not mess with Ser Grandfather *NM* Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:32:09 AM 1267 Views
Asshole of the book? ironclad - 12/07/2011 10:46:10 PM 2389 Views
Agreed. Werthead - 12/07/2011 11:18:07 PM 2335 Views
Seconded. He'd probably make my short list of Assholes of the Series to date. *NM* RandAllThor - 12/07/2011 11:25:04 PM 1130 Views
Yeah, little doubt there. Legolas - 17/07/2011 07:09:53 PM 2193 Views
Seriously... Urza - 18/07/2011 03:07:47 AM 2161 Views
Daenerys Targaryen & lifetime achievement award to Lord Rickard Stark Cannoli - 17/08/2011 12:38:40 AM 2109 Views
Idiot of the book. Werthead - 12/07/2011 11:21:51 PM 2424 Views
lol yep, definitely *NM* ironclad - 13/07/2011 08:12:42 AM 1193 Views
Re: Idiot of the book. Zaphod - 17/07/2011 12:42:20 AM 2286 Views
I think readers are being too hard on Quentyn, If anything I think Doran derserves more mocking. Libby - 17/07/2011 01:09:35 AM 2568 Views
Wait... no she doesn't! fionwe1987 - 17/07/2011 01:29:52 AM 2170 Views
She thinks both Werthead - 18/07/2011 12:22:59 AM 2106 Views
So... Legolas - 17/07/2011 07:18:24 PM 2155 Views
No, it's him. Werthead - 18/07/2011 12:25:33 AM 2165 Views
Is there any hot sex scenes? I won't be able to read it for a while *NM* Dark Knight - 13/07/2011 02:35:49 PM 1272 Views
One or two, but not all that long ones *NM* ironclad - 13/07/2011 02:57:12 PM 1231 Views
Great Ending ClubCaved - 14/07/2011 01:21:53 AM 2396 Views
Really? ironclad - 14/07/2011 09:36:01 AM 2346 Views
Re: Really? Werthead - 14/07/2011 09:38:34 AM 1989 Views
Re: Great Ending samgreenaway - 18/07/2011 02:05:00 AM 2151 Views
YES! Larry - 14/07/2011 02:38:48 AM 1973 Views
Sorry for the n00b reply, sentiments still apply Stephen - 16/07/2011 07:27:43 PM 2145 Views
Re: Sorry for the n00b reply, sentiments still apply Zaphod - 17/07/2011 12:45:52 AM 2115 Views
I don't know what to think... (spoiler) aragornital - 14/07/2011 08:59:39 AM 2357 Views
Probably not. Werthead - 14/07/2011 09:19:03 AM 2315 Views
Re: Probably not. aragornital - 14/07/2011 03:57:55 PM 2163 Views
I think the two are mixed up. Werthead - 14/07/2011 11:23:06 PM 2233 Views
Re: I think the two are mixed up. samgreenaway - 18/07/2011 02:10:29 AM 2081 Views
What made least sense for me as far as that is concerned... ironclad - 14/07/2011 11:51:20 AM 2223 Views
They didn't. Werthead - 14/07/2011 11:24:53 PM 2271 Views
I see ironclad - 15/07/2011 08:28:09 AM 2179 Views
Didn't Jon just announced Roland00 - 26/07/2011 02:51:07 AM 2115 Views
Something I totally missed first time through Werthead - 14/07/2011 09:40:33 AM 2547 Views
Re: Something I totally missed first time through Cannoli - 16/07/2011 01:24:23 AM 2445 Views
Yep, that's what he said/thought A Deathwatch Guard - 17/07/2011 05:02:32 AM 2283 Views
Re: Something I totally missed first time through Jessie - 23/07/2011 04:14:38 PM 2094 Views
Well that brings new meaning Roland00 - 26/07/2011 02:53:18 AM 2037 Views
I'm still not fully done, but about the Reek chapters... fionwe1987 - 14/07/2011 04:05:29 PM 2262 Views
Agreed ironclad - 14/07/2011 06:18:15 PM 2272 Views
There's another... fionwe1987 - 14/07/2011 07:16:11 PM 2075 Views
There's that... Legolas - 17/07/2011 01:12:33 AM 2120 Views
It's worse than that... fionwe1987 - 17/07/2011 01:26:50 AM 2163 Views
Torture is wrong, and those chapters kinda proved it. *NM* Roland00 - 26/07/2011 02:53:55 AM 1170 Views
GRRM completely shit the bed on Jon's arc within this book. That's the truth. Libby - 16/07/2011 12:51:08 AM 2332 Views
Having finished the book, my thoughts. (Spoilers) Variant - 16/07/2011 08:11:30 AM 2256 Views
Re: Having finished the book, my thoughts. (Spoilers) Zaphod - 17/07/2011 01:02:10 AM 2194 Views
Personally, I felt 'A Feast for Crows' was not only better written but more condensed. Libby - 17/07/2011 11:15:58 AM 2264 Views
Summed up like that there is no way to disagree with what you said ironclad - 17/07/2011 11:33:01 AM 2248 Views
You put words to my thoughts exactly. Sir Tybalt - 18/08/2011 09:17:09 PM 2122 Views
It should be re-titled A Jump with Sharks Tom - 17/07/2011 06:00:37 PM 2360 Views
Publishers are more interested in the bottom line. Werthead - 18/07/2011 12:31:56 AM 2126 Views
Sadly, I am likely overestimating the intelligence of the readers. Tom - 18/07/2011 03:05:12 AM 2355 Views
I felt bummed by Sanderson's new series. everynametaken - 18/07/2011 05:25:09 AM 2217 Views
I bought that book but have yet to read it. Tom - 18/07/2011 01:09:15 PM 2083 Views
Re: I bought that book but have yet to read it. Zach - 20/07/2011 06:45:46 AM 2130 Views
You might like this quote from House of Leaves by Mark Z Danielewski. heartbreak - 11/08/2011 03:42:05 PM 2285 Views
I'm afraid I have to agree with what seems to be the majority opinion... Legolas - 17/07/2011 07:35:47 PM 2238 Views
And on a different note entirely: is it me, or did the book need more proofreading? Legolas - 17/07/2011 07:39:15 PM 2134 Views
Re: And on a different note entirely: is it me, or did the book need more proofreading? samgreenaway - 18/07/2011 02:17:41 AM 2320 Views
Yeah, I agree. Stephen - 18/07/2011 05:59:58 PM 2170 Views
The book really shows it is AFFC part 2 Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:00:07 AM 2174 Views
No doubt, much like readers would've been more forgiving of aFfC if it'd been two years after SoS. Legolas - 26/07/2011 11:28:43 PM 2190 Views
Am I The Only One In Love With Arya's Chapters? *spoilers maybe* samgreenaway - 18/07/2011 02:22:00 AM 2182 Views
I enjoyed them, very solid chapters. Libby - 18/07/2011 12:50:43 PM 2239 Views
Unlike others, I won't start a separate thread to express my thoughts Larry - 19/07/2011 11:21:17 AM 2335 Views
Yeah, I wished there was a way to move them in here! ironclad - 19/07/2011 01:42:51 PM 2105 Views
Me too... but going and complaining about them seems so lame, too. Legolas - 19/07/2011 07:34:47 PM 2089 Views
I agree with Jens, good balanced review. *NM* Legolas - 19/07/2011 07:50:13 PM 1157 Views
I think you let him off too easily. Tom - 20/07/2011 04:19:07 AM 2224 Views
It might be that I expected even more of a longeur than what happened Larry - 20/07/2011 05:24:50 PM 2178 Views
Your review is a little too generous (in my opinion) Libby - 20/07/2011 06:57:45 AM 2411 Views
I find myself both depressed and let down... Zach - 20/07/2011 06:37:16 AM 2535 Views
Am I the only one who really likes... ironclad - 20/07/2011 06:04:00 PM 2322 Views
yeh, he is nice... *NM* aragornital - 20/07/2011 06:20:13 PM 1152 Views
Davos is probably my favourite Stephen - 20/07/2011 09:51:03 PM 1981 Views
I have to disagree in regards to Penny, she's a plot device and an annoying one at that. Variant - 21/07/2011 01:15:33 AM 2290 Views
Re: I have to disagree in regards to Penny, she's a plot device and an annoying one at that. Timthetrolloc - 21/07/2011 09:33:00 AM 2135 Views
The six bodies fired by the trebuchet Stephen - 20/07/2011 10:36:16 PM 2171 Views
Yes, I was confused by that too. Legolas - 20/07/2011 10:53:35 PM 2127 Views
Probably pale mare victims. Seige warfare via plague Urza - 20/07/2011 11:23:10 PM 2144 Views
Yes, I considered that as well... Legolas - 20/07/2011 11:48:32 PM 2114 Views
Have Quentyn's two mates already been sent off a this point? ironclad - 21/07/2011 02:03:15 PM 2182 Views
That could be it. *NM* Stephen - 21/07/2011 01:43:16 PM 1064 Views
It's not six bodies, it's six trebuchets throwing corpses instead of stones DomA - 27/07/2011 01:03:51 AM 2202 Views
That's how I read it as well. Six trebuchets opening up. *NM* Michael - 11/08/2011 12:19:09 PM 1124 Views
Stannis ironclad - 21/07/2011 08:43:40 AM 2123 Views
It's entirely possible Stannis was killed Tom - 21/07/2011 02:09:10 PM 2183 Views
I highly doubt he's dead A Deathwatch Guard - 21/07/2011 07:29:59 PM 2179 Views
The bluff makes the most sense: if the Boltons beat Stannis, why does he ask for Theon & Jeyne? Cannoli - 22/07/2011 12:01:30 AM 2222 Views
Yeah... Urza - 22/07/2011 12:27:53 AM 2096 Views
The letter sounded like the ravings of a psychopath loosing control DomA - 27/07/2011 02:56:21 AM 2253 Views
The Aegon Twist. Something about this doesn't add up. Libby - 21/07/2011 10:43:43 PM 2219 Views
Re: The Aegon Twist. Something about this doesn't add up. Werthead - 22/07/2011 05:42:13 PM 2290 Views
Alternatively.. fionwe1987 - 22/07/2011 09:13:46 PM 2116 Views
Which gods do you think are "real" in Martin's world? Tom - 22/07/2011 04:32:39 PM 2172 Views
None of them. Werthead - 22/07/2011 06:25:19 PM 2077 Views
Is that personal opinion or based on something Martin said? *NM* Tom - 22/07/2011 06:37:57 PM 1154 Views
Opinion Werthead - 22/07/2011 07:43:16 PM 2116 Views
Regardless of whether or not they actually get involved, their existence (or not) is signficant. Tom - 23/07/2011 02:17:48 AM 1990 Views
I think there are some god's, just given different names. Same with the magic. fionwe1987 - 22/07/2011 09:24:51 PM 2100 Views
Lose the apostrophe in the subject line. Then: on what basis do you assume this? Tom - 23/07/2011 02:28:49 AM 2133 Views
You might want to stop wasting time correcting others typos. As for the gods... fionwe1987 - 23/07/2011 04:53:59 AM 2028 Views
You might want to stop making them. Particularly glaring ones like that. Tom - 23/07/2011 05:01:03 AM 2204 Views
A typo can't be "glaring"... fionwe1987 - 23/07/2011 08:08:51 AM 2086 Views
Sure it can. Glaring: conspicuous or obvious. Tom - 23/07/2011 03:52:57 PM 2084 Views
Morality stems from god? A Deathwatch Guard - 22/07/2011 10:47:59 PM 2084 Views
Of course it does Tom - 23/07/2011 02:26:50 AM 2064 Views
On second thought, let's address the issue directly. Tom - 23/07/2011 05:14:59 AM 2193 Views
Perhaps... A Deathwatch Guard - 24/07/2011 07:03:24 PM 2094 Views
Its simple... Urza - 24/07/2011 07:37:11 PM 2106 Views
I disagree... fionwe1987 - 25/07/2011 04:10:04 AM 2164 Views
Bullshit. Tom - 25/07/2011 05:44:41 AM 2036 Views
Re: Bullshit. fionwe1987 - 25/07/2011 06:27:09 AM 1956 Views
The Seven probably has more power and influence than any other religion though. Werthead - 25/07/2011 07:51:59 PM 1986 Views
In Westeros, but I always got the feeling the Free Cities and other places didn't much care for them A Deathwatch Guard - 26/07/2011 10:53:45 PM 2116 Views
Westeros is the biggest coherent civilisation in the ASoIaF world. Werthead - 27/07/2011 12:56:21 AM 2154 Views
Some thoughts... fionwe1987 - 25/07/2011 04:54:05 AM 2112 Views
It's not an objective morality. Tom - 25/07/2011 05:41:33 AM 2063 Views
Its not that simple... fionwe1987 - 25/07/2011 06:21:39 AM 2133 Views
I don't disagree with most of what you said. I just reach a different conclusion. Tom - 25/07/2011 01:57:31 PM 2039 Views
Well... fionwe1987 - 25/07/2011 05:02:45 PM 2057 Views
How then do you deal with the Euthyphro dilemma? Tim - 16/08/2011 01:43:18 PM 1925 Views
Re: Which gods do you think are "real" in Martin's world? aragornital - 25/07/2011 02:24:07 PM 1993 Views
Whats the best new POV Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:14:05 AM 2127 Views
Barristan Werthead - 26/07/2011 12:23:20 PM 2076 Views
Didn't Aeron "Damphair" Greyjoy also only have 2 POVs Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:56:57 PM 2186 Views
Agreed. *NM* Legolas - 26/07/2011 11:33:11 PM 1201 Views
thirded. Jessie - 27/07/2011 04:16:26 PM 1973 Views
Absolutely *NM* ironclad - 29/07/2011 02:31:54 AM 1264 Views
Things you missed till they were pointed out via others or via a reread Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:23:53 AM 2259 Views
A bit. Werthead - 26/07/2011 12:32:32 PM 2218 Views
Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:46:54 PM 2167 Views
Re: Werthead - 27/07/2011 12:43:43 AM 2156 Views
Martin doesn't have to do anything Roland00 - 27/07/2011 01:33:36 AM 2195 Views
Re: Martin doesn't have to do anything DomA - 27/07/2011 04:38:19 AM 2059 Views
The crone who prophesied the stallion who mounts the world saw the stallions face Roland00 - 27/07/2011 05:13:28 AM 2210 Views
Re: Martin doesn't have to do anything aragornital - 27/07/2011 08:58:55 AM 1974 Views
Re: DomA - 27/07/2011 04:27:18 AM 2208 Views
I like your theory. Jessie - 27/07/2011 04:35:22 PM 2226 Views
Interesting... hadn't noticed some of those either. Legolas - 26/07/2011 11:32:18 PM 2189 Views
Re: Interesting... hadn't noticed some of those either. Roland00 - 27/07/2011 02:00:42 AM 2052 Views
Eh? Elaine - 29/07/2011 04:44:17 PM 2194 Views
This is complicated. Werthead - 31/07/2011 10:43:15 PM 2420 Views
Wait...a woman crowned for beauty was the victorious mystery knight? Tom - 01/08/2011 03:00:49 AM 2080 Views
It is believed the Knight of the Laughing Tree is one of two people Roland00 - 01/08/2011 04:47:21 AM 2176 Views
Yup. Werthead - 02/08/2011 12:03:26 AM 2029 Views
Also... fionwe1987 - 02/08/2011 07:17:43 AM 2092 Views
And yet, my huge brain figures it out Elaine - 04/08/2011 04:20:06 PM 2110 Views
I've read this scene yesterday and I missed this... aragornital - 02/08/2011 07:55:35 AM 2120 Views
Allow me Elaine - 05/08/2011 02:14:15 PM 1999 Views
thanks *NM* aragornital - 07/08/2011 07:28:21 AM 1138 Views
I thought this was pretty clear HousealThor - 07/08/2011 05:18:54 PM 2012 Views
Hizdahr a Harpy? Innocent or Not? Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:36:56 AM 2409 Views
Interesting idea. Werthead - 26/07/2011 12:25:11 PM 2191 Views
Re: Interesting idea. Jessie - 27/07/2011 04:25:02 PM 2126 Views
What is happening with the Maesters subplot? Any new leads? Roland00 - 26/07/2011 04:13:27 PM 2127 Views
Re: What is happening with the Maesters subplot? Any new leads? Werthead - 27/07/2011 12:49:52 AM 2328 Views
Re: What is happening with the Maesters subplot? Any new leads? DomA - 27/07/2011 03:49:18 AM 2271 Views
Re: A Dance with Dragons discussion thread jwk - 29/07/2011 01:42:57 AM 2305 Views
Okay. I suck. jwk - 29/07/2011 01:50:56 AM 2064 Views
Let me rephrase that... jwk - 29/07/2011 01:54:07 AM 2050 Views
Jon Snow is definitely Azor Ahai. Kotagg - 29/07/2011 07:31:17 PM 2648 Views
Hmm ironclad - 31/07/2011 01:52:03 PM 2540 Views
you are correct Jim - 31/07/2011 11:08:39 PM 2128 Views
Yup. Werthead - 31/07/2011 10:49:34 PM 1989 Views
But Shireen is a dragon... fionwe1987 - 01/08/2011 12:22:16 AM 2117 Views
I'm uncertain about that Larry - 01/08/2011 05:35:18 AM 2096 Views
True, but I wouldn't read too much into that. Werthead - 01/08/2011 11:42:29 PM 2376 Views
Where did he say that? fionwe1987 - 02/08/2011 07:18:39 AM 2251 Views
In interviews Werthead - 02/08/2011 02:21:28 PM 2198 Views
A little thought about Jon... aragornital - 02/08/2011 08:02:34 AM 2261 Views
Excellent point. Werthead - 02/08/2011 02:22:22 PM 2192 Views
Am I the only one who thinks... The Doctor - 09/08/2011 05:16:46 PM 2229 Views
I think Martin's gonna stick to Bran being the only one who does that ironclad - 10/08/2011 09:25:12 AM 2295 Views
It's possible, the problem is Jon's warging skill isn't all that well developed. Libby - 10/08/2011 10:53:32 PM 2083 Views
Anyone have any thoughts as to the purpose of Arya's storyline? Chas - 14/08/2011 06:28:09 PM 2138 Views
She's being trained as an assassin, so the question is who is she going to kill? Werthead - 16/08/2011 01:43:12 AM 2048 Views
Jon? Sir Tybalt - 18/08/2011 09:59:03 PM 2102 Views
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