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Morality stems from god? A Deathwatch Guard Send a noteboard - 22/07/2011 10:47:59 PM
I think not, not in this world and not in Martin's either. And while it is true that Martin's world is different from ours, nothing that we've seen in it shows that its morality differs from ours. Parents still care for their children, incest is still bad, killing is still bad, desertion is still bad, there are still concepts of duty and honor and family, etc. So there is no reason for concepts of morality that apply in our world to not apply in Martin's.

As for your question, the Seven and the Drowned God are certainly not real in any shape or form. In particular, the Seven (and all the South, basically) seem to exist just to highlight how much better the northerners and the northern gods are. And the northern gods certainly are better, but not because of any divine influence, since we know now that the heart trees are simply filled with the collective minds of dead greenseers, who were all perfectly mortal and not divine in any way. But praying to a heart tree always seems to prompt the characters to be introspective and to really think things through, while the Seven don't seem to inspire their followers to spend their time thinking. So the old gods are successful, but only as an unintended side effect.

R'hllor is harder to puzzle out. I doubt he's real as well, since his followers just use magical powers to make themselves seem right, and so far we've seen no proof of any actual divine power. As for the God of Many Faces, his followers simply don't make any sense. They say it is not for them to kill, but then if someone prays hard enough they go out and do the job? Who decides when the prayer is strong enough to be answered? And why are they answering at all, when their god should be smiting down the offending party?

However, going by Bran's dream in the first book, there must be a god of some kind. Because he looked to the north and then even further north, and saw something that he could not bear to even look at or to think of. That fits strongly with the "Great Other" of R'hllor... But who knows, it could be any kind of devil figure. But if there is one, there most likely is his counterpart somewhere too, so I suppose a real god must exist somewhere.
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A Dance with Dragons discussion thread - 11/07/2011 10:48:23 PM 6722 Views
Okay, first impressions. Basically spoiler-free, I suppose. - 11/07/2011 11:40:31 PM 2272 Views
I have it! *NM* - 12/07/2011 05:42:27 AM 1233 Views
A general question to get the discussion started: will two more books be enough? - 12/07/2011 02:22:52 PM 2464 Views
A very good question *major spoilers, then* - 12/07/2011 02:55:05 PM 2433 Views
Oh, come on. If anyone can do it, Martin can. - 15/07/2011 03:48:27 AM 2143 Views
It'll be tight. - 12/07/2011 04:32:39 PM 2470 Views
No but I think 3 will be possible - 26/07/2011 03:15:02 AM 2239 Views
what is Purple Wedding? *NM* - 27/07/2011 08:37:04 AM 1112 Views
Joffrey and Margaery wedding - 27/07/2011 04:26:04 PM 2272 Views
Hero of the book? - 12/07/2011 10:12:02 PM 2572 Views
Lord Manderly gets my vote. - 12/07/2011 10:41:19 PM 2356 Views
Re: Hero of the book? - 12/07/2011 10:43:20 PM 2250 Views
Re: Hero of the book? - 12/07/2011 11:50:29 PM 2251 Views
Ohh, so that was what that was about. - 17/07/2011 07:08:19 PM 2304 Views
That's what I thought too. - 25/07/2011 01:48:50 AM 2264 Views
Victorian Greyjoy = Hero of the book *NM* - 21/07/2011 06:20:25 AM 1296 Views
Asshole of the book? - 12/07/2011 10:46:10 PM 2446 Views
Agreed. - 12/07/2011 11:18:07 PM 2400 Views
Yeah, little doubt there. - 17/07/2011 07:09:53 PM 2255 Views
Seriously... - 18/07/2011 03:07:47 AM 2226 Views
Daenerys Targaryen & lifetime achievement award to Lord Rickard Stark - 17/08/2011 12:38:40 AM 2168 Views
Idiot of the book. - 12/07/2011 11:21:51 PM 2480 Views
lol yep, definitely *NM* - 13/07/2011 08:12:42 AM 1229 Views
Re: Idiot of the book. - 17/07/2011 12:42:20 AM 2348 Views
Wait... no she doesn't! - 17/07/2011 01:29:52 AM 2228 Views
She thinks both - 18/07/2011 12:22:59 AM 2171 Views
So... - 17/07/2011 07:18:24 PM 2220 Views
No, it's him. - 18/07/2011 12:25:33 AM 2259 Views
Is there any hot sex scenes? I won't be able to read it for a while *NM* - 13/07/2011 02:35:49 PM 1309 Views
One or two, but not all that long ones *NM* - 13/07/2011 02:57:12 PM 1268 Views
Great Ending - 14/07/2011 01:21:53 AM 2477 Views
Really? - 14/07/2011 09:36:01 AM 2412 Views
Re: Really? - 14/07/2011 09:38:34 AM 2059 Views
Re: Great Ending - 18/07/2011 02:05:00 AM 2204 Views
YES! - 14/07/2011 02:38:48 AM 2031 Views
Sorry for the n00b reply, sentiments still apply - 16/07/2011 07:27:43 PM 2201 Views
Re: Sorry for the n00b reply, sentiments still apply - 17/07/2011 12:45:52 AM 2180 Views
I don't know what to think... (spoiler) - 14/07/2011 08:59:39 AM 2416 Views
Probably not. - 14/07/2011 09:19:03 AM 2378 Views
Re: Probably not. - 14/07/2011 03:57:55 PM 2232 Views
I think the two are mixed up. - 14/07/2011 11:23:06 PM 2304 Views
Re: I think the two are mixed up. - 18/07/2011 02:10:29 AM 2132 Views
What made least sense for me as far as that is concerned... - 14/07/2011 11:51:20 AM 2293 Views
They didn't. - 14/07/2011 11:24:53 PM 2333 Views
I see - 15/07/2011 08:28:09 AM 2250 Views
Didn't Jon just announced - 26/07/2011 02:51:07 AM 2176 Views
Something I totally missed first time through - 14/07/2011 09:40:33 AM 2608 Views
Re: Something I totally missed first time through - 16/07/2011 01:24:23 AM 2502 Views
Yep, that's what he said/thought - 17/07/2011 05:02:32 AM 2346 Views
Re: Something I totally missed first time through - 23/07/2011 04:14:38 PM 2146 Views
Well that brings new meaning - 26/07/2011 02:53:18 AM 2108 Views
I'm still not fully done, but about the Reek chapters... - 14/07/2011 04:05:29 PM 2336 Views
Agreed - 14/07/2011 06:18:15 PM 2330 Views
There's another... - 14/07/2011 07:16:11 PM 2138 Views
There's that... - 17/07/2011 01:12:33 AM 2188 Views
It's worse than that... - 17/07/2011 01:26:50 AM 2234 Views
Torture is wrong, and those chapters kinda proved it. *NM* - 26/07/2011 02:53:55 AM 1202 Views
Having finished the book, my thoughts. (Spoilers) - 16/07/2011 08:11:30 AM 2323 Views
Re: Having finished the book, my thoughts. (Spoilers) - 17/07/2011 01:02:10 AM 2248 Views
You put words to my thoughts exactly. - 18/08/2011 09:17:09 PM 2203 Views
It should be re-titled A Jump with Sharks - 17/07/2011 06:00:37 PM 2419 Views
Publishers are more interested in the bottom line. - 18/07/2011 12:31:56 AM 2189 Views
Sadly, I am likely overestimating the intelligence of the readers. - 18/07/2011 03:05:12 AM 2419 Views
I felt bummed by Sanderson's new series. - 18/07/2011 05:25:09 AM 2322 Views
I bought that book but have yet to read it. - 18/07/2011 01:09:15 PM 2149 Views
Re: I bought that book but have yet to read it. - 20/07/2011 06:45:46 AM 2198 Views
You might like this quote from House of Leaves by Mark Z Danielewski. - 11/08/2011 03:42:05 PM 2423 Views
I'm afraid I have to agree with what seems to be the majority opinion... - 17/07/2011 07:35:47 PM 2297 Views
And on a different note entirely: is it me, or did the book need more proofreading? - 17/07/2011 07:39:15 PM 2197 Views
Yeah, I agree. - 18/07/2011 05:59:58 PM 2239 Views
The book really shows it is AFFC part 2 - 26/07/2011 03:00:07 AM 2232 Views
Am I The Only One In Love With Arya's Chapters? *spoilers maybe* - 18/07/2011 02:22:00 AM 2241 Views
I enjoyed them, very solid chapters. - 18/07/2011 12:50:43 PM 2348 Views
Unlike others, I won't start a separate thread to express my thoughts - 19/07/2011 11:21:17 AM 2405 Views
Yeah, I wished there was a way to move them in here! - 19/07/2011 01:42:51 PM 2178 Views
Me too... but going and complaining about them seems so lame, too. - 19/07/2011 07:34:47 PM 2160 Views
I agree with Jens, good balanced review. *NM* - 19/07/2011 07:50:13 PM 1192 Views
I think you let him off too easily. - 20/07/2011 04:19:07 AM 2285 Views
Your review is a little too generous (in my opinion) - 20/07/2011 06:57:45 AM 2478 Views
I find myself both depressed and let down... - 20/07/2011 06:37:16 AM 2606 Views
Am I the only one who really likes... - 20/07/2011 06:04:00 PM 2384 Views
yeh, he is nice... *NM* - 20/07/2011 06:20:13 PM 1185 Views
Davos is probably my favourite - 20/07/2011 09:51:03 PM 2058 Views
The six bodies fired by the trebuchet - 20/07/2011 10:36:16 PM 2228 Views
Yes, I was confused by that too. - 20/07/2011 10:53:35 PM 2195 Views
Probably pale mare victims. Seige warfare via plague - 20/07/2011 11:23:10 PM 2212 Views
Yes, I considered that as well... - 20/07/2011 11:48:32 PM 2174 Views
Have Quentyn's two mates already been sent off a this point? - 21/07/2011 02:03:15 PM 2252 Views
That could be it. *NM* - 21/07/2011 01:43:16 PM 1100 Views
Stannis - 21/07/2011 08:43:40 AM 2189 Views
It's entirely possible Stannis was killed - 21/07/2011 02:09:10 PM 2241 Views
I highly doubt he's dead - 21/07/2011 07:29:59 PM 2230 Views
The bluff makes the most sense: if the Boltons beat Stannis, why does he ask for Theon & Jeyne? - 22/07/2011 12:01:30 AM 2272 Views
Yeah... - 22/07/2011 12:27:53 AM 2156 Views
The Aegon Twist. Something about this doesn't add up. - 21/07/2011 10:43:43 PM 2320 Views
Re: The Aegon Twist. Something about this doesn't add up. - 22/07/2011 05:42:13 PM 2350 Views
Alternatively.. - 22/07/2011 09:13:46 PM 2178 Views
Which gods do you think are "real" in Martin's world? - 22/07/2011 04:32:39 PM 2240 Views
None of them. - 22/07/2011 06:25:19 PM 2133 Views
Is that personal opinion or based on something Martin said? *NM* - 22/07/2011 06:37:57 PM 1192 Views
Opinion - 22/07/2011 07:43:16 PM 2176 Views
I think there are some god's, just given different names. Same with the magic. - 22/07/2011 09:24:51 PM 2156 Views
Lose the apostrophe in the subject line. Then: on what basis do you assume this? - 23/07/2011 02:28:49 AM 2193 Views
You might want to stop wasting time correcting others typos. As for the gods... - 23/07/2011 04:53:59 AM 2095 Views
You might want to stop making them. Particularly glaring ones like that. - 23/07/2011 05:01:03 AM 2257 Views
A typo can't be "glaring"... - 23/07/2011 08:08:51 AM 2157 Views
Sure it can. Glaring: conspicuous or obvious. - 23/07/2011 03:52:57 PM 2152 Views
Morality stems from god? - 22/07/2011 10:47:59 PM 2148 Views
Of course it does - 23/07/2011 02:26:50 AM 2128 Views
On second thought, let's address the issue directly. - 23/07/2011 05:14:59 AM 2258 Views
Perhaps... - 24/07/2011 07:03:24 PM 2166 Views
Its simple... - 24/07/2011 07:37:11 PM 2167 Views
I disagree... - 25/07/2011 04:10:04 AM 2226 Views
Bullshit. - 25/07/2011 05:44:41 AM 2106 Views
Re: Bullshit. - 25/07/2011 06:27:09 AM 2018 Views
Some thoughts... - 25/07/2011 04:54:05 AM 2175 Views
It's not an objective morality. - 25/07/2011 05:41:33 AM 2123 Views
Its not that simple... - 25/07/2011 06:21:39 AM 2195 Views
I don't disagree with most of what you said. I just reach a different conclusion. - 25/07/2011 01:57:31 PM 2101 Views
Well... - 25/07/2011 05:02:45 PM 2117 Views
How then do you deal with the Euthyphro dilemma? - 16/08/2011 01:43:18 PM 1994 Views
Re: Which gods do you think are "real" in Martin's world? - 25/07/2011 02:24:07 PM 2066 Views
Whats the best new POV - 26/07/2011 03:14:05 AM 2186 Views
Barristan - 26/07/2011 12:23:20 PM 2138 Views
Didn't Aeron "Damphair" Greyjoy also only have 2 POVs - 26/07/2011 03:56:57 PM 2249 Views
Agreed. *NM* - 26/07/2011 11:33:11 PM 1235 Views
thirded. - 27/07/2011 04:16:26 PM 2029 Views
Absolutely *NM* - 29/07/2011 02:31:54 AM 1310 Views
Things you missed till they were pointed out via others or via a reread - 26/07/2011 03:23:53 AM 2340 Views
A bit. - 26/07/2011 12:32:32 PM 2288 Views
- 26/07/2011 03:46:54 PM 2219 Views
Re: - 27/07/2011 12:43:43 AM 2223 Views
Martin doesn't have to do anything - 27/07/2011 01:33:36 AM 2255 Views
Re: Martin doesn't have to do anything - 27/07/2011 04:38:19 AM 2113 Views
Re: Martin doesn't have to do anything - 27/07/2011 08:58:55 AM 2045 Views
Re: - 27/07/2011 04:27:18 AM 2261 Views
I like your theory. - 27/07/2011 04:35:22 PM 2280 Views
Interesting... hadn't noticed some of those either. - 26/07/2011 11:32:18 PM 2250 Views
Re: Interesting... hadn't noticed some of those either. - 27/07/2011 02:00:42 AM 2116 Views
Eh? - 29/07/2011 04:44:17 PM 2257 Views
This is complicated. - 31/07/2011 10:43:15 PM 2486 Views
Wait...a woman crowned for beauty was the victorious mystery knight? - 01/08/2011 03:00:49 AM 2150 Views
It is believed the Knight of the Laughing Tree is one of two people - 01/08/2011 04:47:21 AM 2246 Views
Yup. - 02/08/2011 12:03:26 AM 2084 Views
Also... - 02/08/2011 07:17:43 AM 2159 Views
And yet, my huge brain figures it out - 04/08/2011 04:20:06 PM 2176 Views
I've read this scene yesterday and I missed this... - 02/08/2011 07:55:35 AM 2185 Views
Allow me - 05/08/2011 02:14:15 PM 2059 Views
thanks *NM* - 07/08/2011 07:28:21 AM 1168 Views
I thought this was pretty clear - 07/08/2011 05:18:54 PM 2071 Views
Hizdahr a Harpy? Innocent or Not? - 26/07/2011 03:36:56 AM 2480 Views
Interesting idea. - 26/07/2011 12:25:11 PM 2250 Views
Re: Interesting idea. - 27/07/2011 04:25:02 PM 2193 Views
What is happening with the Maesters subplot? Any new leads? - 26/07/2011 04:13:27 PM 2189 Views
Re: What is happening with the Maesters subplot? Any new leads? - 27/07/2011 12:49:52 AM 2392 Views
Re: What is happening with the Maesters subplot? Any new leads? - 27/07/2011 03:49:18 AM 2338 Views
Re: A Dance with Dragons discussion thread - 29/07/2011 01:42:57 AM 2367 Views
Okay. I suck. - 29/07/2011 01:50:56 AM 2130 Views
Let me rephrase that... - 29/07/2011 01:54:07 AM 2118 Views
Jon Snow is definitely Azor Ahai. - 29/07/2011 07:31:17 PM 2706 Views
Hmm - 31/07/2011 01:52:03 PM 2599 Views
you are correct - 31/07/2011 11:08:39 PM 2195 Views
Yup. - 31/07/2011 10:49:34 PM 2048 Views
But Shireen is a dragon... - 01/08/2011 12:22:16 AM 2187 Views
I'm uncertain about that - 01/08/2011 05:35:18 AM 2168 Views
True, but I wouldn't read too much into that. - 01/08/2011 11:42:29 PM 2450 Views
Where did he say that? - 02/08/2011 07:18:39 AM 2305 Views
In interviews - 02/08/2011 02:21:28 PM 2264 Views
A little thought about Jon... - 02/08/2011 08:02:34 AM 2331 Views
Excellent point. - 02/08/2011 02:22:22 PM 2266 Views
Am I the only one who thinks... - 09/08/2011 05:16:46 PM 2283 Views
I think Martin's gonna stick to Bran being the only one who does that - 10/08/2011 09:25:12 AM 2360 Views
Anyone have any thoughts as to the purpose of Arya's storyline? - 14/08/2011 06:28:09 PM 2201 Views
She's being trained as an assassin, so the question is who is she going to kill? - 16/08/2011 01:43:12 AM 2122 Views
Jon? - 18/08/2011 09:59:03 PM 2166 Views

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