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Some thoughts... fionwe1987 Send a noteboard - 25/07/2011 04:54:05 AM

The true atheist is essentially denying that the universe has meaning.

How so? Denying the existence of a higher order that arbitrates the actions of man doesn't mean denying the absence of meaning in those actions.

By extension, any decision that any individual makes is completely arbitrary. Let's say you get one million people together and every single one says that murder is wrong. It's still arbitrary because the universe has no meaning.

But what does this have to do with morality? An arbitrary rule is still a rule, and a rule that has the backing of an overwhelming majority of those it will apply to can be enforced on just that basis.

I don't think a reasonable claim can be made that morality can exist only if people believe in a "deeper meaning". There is, in fact, some research showing exactly the opposite, that the spread of atheism or agnosticism is positively correlated with greater morality in an open and free society:

http://www.blackwell-compass.com/subject/sociology/article_view?article_id=soco_articles_bpl247

I don't think this is conclusive by any means, but it certainly points in a direction that is opposite to "Morality stems from God".
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A Dance with Dragons discussion thread Legolas - 11/07/2011 10:48:23 PM 6534 Views
Okay, first impressions. Basically spoiler-free, I suppose. ironclad - 11/07/2011 11:40:31 PM 2093 Views
I have it! *NM* fionwe1987 - 12/07/2011 05:42:27 AM 1129 Views
A general question to get the discussion started: will two more books be enough? RandAllThor - 12/07/2011 02:22:52 PM 2291 Views
A very good question *major spoilers, then* ironclad - 12/07/2011 02:55:05 PM 2266 Views
Oh, come on. If anyone can do it, Martin can. Tom - 15/07/2011 03:48:27 AM 1953 Views
It'll be tight. Werthead - 12/07/2011 04:32:39 PM 2271 Views
What does "resurrection-as-PWWP Jon" mean? Got it - Prince Who Was Promised! Sir Tybalt - 18/08/2011 08:59:44 PM 2148 Views
No but I think 3 will be possible Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:15:02 AM 2071 Views
what is Purple Wedding? *NM* aragornital - 27/07/2011 08:37:04 AM 1032 Views
Joffrey and Margaery wedding Roland00 - 27/07/2011 04:26:04 PM 2109 Views
Hero of the book? Werthead - 12/07/2011 10:12:02 PM 2401 Views
Lord Manderly gets my vote. RandAllThor - 12/07/2011 10:41:19 PM 2184 Views
Re: Hero of the book? ironclad - 12/07/2011 10:43:20 PM 2066 Views
Re: Hero of the book? ClubCaved - 12/07/2011 11:50:29 PM 2067 Views
Ohh, so that was what that was about. Legolas - 17/07/2011 07:08:19 PM 2093 Views
That's what I thought too. Jessie - 25/07/2011 01:48:50 AM 2094 Views
Victorian Greyjoy = Hero of the book *NM* Urza - 21/07/2011 06:20:25 AM 1206 Views
Barristan should be renamed as Ser Grandfather, you do not mess with Ser Grandfather *NM* Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:32:09 AM 1183 Views
Asshole of the book? ironclad - 12/07/2011 10:46:10 PM 2278 Views
Agreed. Werthead - 12/07/2011 11:18:07 PM 2216 Views
Seconded. He'd probably make my short list of Assholes of the Series to date. *NM* RandAllThor - 12/07/2011 11:25:04 PM 1077 Views
Yeah, little doubt there. Legolas - 17/07/2011 07:09:53 PM 2054 Views
Seriously... Urza - 18/07/2011 03:07:47 AM 2051 Views
Daenerys Targaryen & lifetime achievement award to Lord Rickard Stark Cannoli - 17/08/2011 12:38:40 AM 1991 Views
Idiot of the book. Werthead - 12/07/2011 11:21:51 PM 2302 Views
lol yep, definitely *NM* ironclad - 13/07/2011 08:12:42 AM 1134 Views
Re: Idiot of the book. Zaphod - 17/07/2011 12:42:20 AM 2173 Views
I think readers are being too hard on Quentyn, If anything I think Doran derserves more mocking. Libby - 17/07/2011 01:09:35 AM 2466 Views
Wait... no she doesn't! fionwe1987 - 17/07/2011 01:29:52 AM 2062 Views
She thinks both Werthead - 18/07/2011 12:22:59 AM 2002 Views
So... Legolas - 17/07/2011 07:18:24 PM 2025 Views
No, it's him. Werthead - 18/07/2011 12:25:33 AM 2021 Views
Is there any hot sex scenes? I won't be able to read it for a while *NM* Dark Knight - 13/07/2011 02:35:49 PM 1211 Views
One or two, but not all that long ones *NM* ironclad - 13/07/2011 02:57:12 PM 1175 Views
Great Ending ClubCaved - 14/07/2011 01:21:53 AM 2298 Views
Really? ironclad - 14/07/2011 09:36:01 AM 2232 Views
Re: Really? Werthead - 14/07/2011 09:38:34 AM 1877 Views
Re: Great Ending samgreenaway - 18/07/2011 02:05:00 AM 2027 Views
YES! Larry - 14/07/2011 02:38:48 AM 1862 Views
Sorry for the n00b reply, sentiments still apply Stephen - 16/07/2011 07:27:43 PM 2038 Views
Re: Sorry for the n00b reply, sentiments still apply Zaphod - 17/07/2011 12:45:52 AM 2010 Views
I don't know what to think... (spoiler) aragornital - 14/07/2011 08:59:39 AM 2235 Views
Probably not. Werthead - 14/07/2011 09:19:03 AM 2212 Views
Re: Probably not. aragornital - 14/07/2011 03:57:55 PM 2059 Views
I think the two are mixed up. Werthead - 14/07/2011 11:23:06 PM 2126 Views
Re: I think the two are mixed up. samgreenaway - 18/07/2011 02:10:29 AM 1969 Views
What made least sense for me as far as that is concerned... ironclad - 14/07/2011 11:51:20 AM 2108 Views
They didn't. Werthead - 14/07/2011 11:24:53 PM 2145 Views
I see ironclad - 15/07/2011 08:28:09 AM 2054 Views
Didn't Jon just announced Roland00 - 26/07/2011 02:51:07 AM 2027 Views
Something I totally missed first time through Werthead - 14/07/2011 09:40:33 AM 2420 Views
Re: Something I totally missed first time through Cannoli - 16/07/2011 01:24:23 AM 2340 Views
Yep, that's what he said/thought A Deathwatch Guard - 17/07/2011 05:02:32 AM 2162 Views
Re: Something I totally missed first time through Jessie - 23/07/2011 04:14:38 PM 1986 Views
Well that brings new meaning Roland00 - 26/07/2011 02:53:18 AM 1918 Views
I'm still not fully done, but about the Reek chapters... fionwe1987 - 14/07/2011 04:05:29 PM 2143 Views
Agreed ironclad - 14/07/2011 06:18:15 PM 2155 Views
There's another... fionwe1987 - 14/07/2011 07:16:11 PM 1964 Views
There's that... Legolas - 17/07/2011 01:12:33 AM 2011 Views
It's worse than that... fionwe1987 - 17/07/2011 01:26:50 AM 2039 Views
Torture is wrong, and those chapters kinda proved it. *NM* Roland00 - 26/07/2011 02:53:55 AM 1116 Views
GRRM completely shit the bed on Jon's arc within this book. That's the truth. Libby - 16/07/2011 12:51:08 AM 2203 Views
Having finished the book, my thoughts. (Spoilers) Variant - 16/07/2011 08:11:30 AM 2159 Views
Re: Having finished the book, my thoughts. (Spoilers) Zaphod - 17/07/2011 01:02:10 AM 2103 Views
Personally, I felt 'A Feast for Crows' was not only better written but more condensed. Libby - 17/07/2011 11:15:58 AM 2153 Views
Summed up like that there is no way to disagree with what you said ironclad - 17/07/2011 11:33:01 AM 2140 Views
You put words to my thoughts exactly. Sir Tybalt - 18/08/2011 09:17:09 PM 2001 Views
It should be re-titled A Jump with Sharks Tom - 17/07/2011 06:00:37 PM 2220 Views
Publishers are more interested in the bottom line. Werthead - 18/07/2011 12:31:56 AM 1984 Views
Sadly, I am likely overestimating the intelligence of the readers. Tom - 18/07/2011 03:05:12 AM 2217 Views
I felt bummed by Sanderson's new series. everynametaken - 18/07/2011 05:25:09 AM 2043 Views
I bought that book but have yet to read it. Tom - 18/07/2011 01:09:15 PM 1993 Views
Re: I bought that book but have yet to read it. Zach - 20/07/2011 06:45:46 AM 2011 Views
You might like this quote from House of Leaves by Mark Z Danielewski. heartbreak - 11/08/2011 03:42:05 PM 2130 Views
I'm afraid I have to agree with what seems to be the majority opinion... Legolas - 17/07/2011 07:35:47 PM 2137 Views
And on a different note entirely: is it me, or did the book need more proofreading? Legolas - 17/07/2011 07:39:15 PM 2017 Views
Re: And on a different note entirely: is it me, or did the book need more proofreading? samgreenaway - 18/07/2011 02:17:41 AM 2195 Views
Yeah, I agree. Stephen - 18/07/2011 05:59:58 PM 2064 Views
The book really shows it is AFFC part 2 Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:00:07 AM 2051 Views
No doubt, much like readers would've been more forgiving of aFfC if it'd been two years after SoS. Legolas - 26/07/2011 11:28:43 PM 2074 Views
Am I The Only One In Love With Arya's Chapters? *spoilers maybe* samgreenaway - 18/07/2011 02:22:00 AM 2049 Views
I enjoyed them, very solid chapters. Libby - 18/07/2011 12:50:43 PM 2091 Views
Unlike others, I won't start a separate thread to express my thoughts Larry - 19/07/2011 11:21:17 AM 2201 Views
Yeah, I wished there was a way to move them in here! ironclad - 19/07/2011 01:42:51 PM 1962 Views
Me too... but going and complaining about them seems so lame, too. Legolas - 19/07/2011 07:34:47 PM 1976 Views
I agree with Jens, good balanced review. *NM* Legolas - 19/07/2011 07:50:13 PM 1101 Views
I think you let him off too easily. Tom - 20/07/2011 04:19:07 AM 2103 Views
It might be that I expected even more of a longeur than what happened Larry - 20/07/2011 05:24:50 PM 2066 Views
Your review is a little too generous (in my opinion) Libby - 20/07/2011 06:57:45 AM 2275 Views
I find myself both depressed and let down... Zach - 20/07/2011 06:37:16 AM 2399 Views
Am I the only one who really likes... ironclad - 20/07/2011 06:04:00 PM 2218 Views
yeh, he is nice... *NM* aragornital - 20/07/2011 06:20:13 PM 1095 Views
Davos is probably my favourite Stephen - 20/07/2011 09:51:03 PM 1854 Views
I have to disagree in regards to Penny, she's a plot device and an annoying one at that. Variant - 21/07/2011 01:15:33 AM 2180 Views
Re: I have to disagree in regards to Penny, she's a plot device and an annoying one at that. Timthetrolloc - 21/07/2011 09:33:00 AM 2020 Views
The six bodies fired by the trebuchet Stephen - 20/07/2011 10:36:16 PM 2062 Views
Yes, I was confused by that too. Legolas - 20/07/2011 10:53:35 PM 2014 Views
Probably pale mare victims. Seige warfare via plague Urza - 20/07/2011 11:23:10 PM 2049 Views
Yes, I considered that as well... Legolas - 20/07/2011 11:48:32 PM 1988 Views
Have Quentyn's two mates already been sent off a this point? ironclad - 21/07/2011 02:03:15 PM 2068 Views
That could be it. *NM* Stephen - 21/07/2011 01:43:16 PM 1002 Views
It's not six bodies, it's six trebuchets throwing corpses instead of stones DomA - 27/07/2011 01:03:51 AM 2093 Views
That's how I read it as well. Six trebuchets opening up. *NM* Michael - 11/08/2011 12:19:09 PM 1074 Views
Stannis ironclad - 21/07/2011 08:43:40 AM 2013 Views
It's entirely possible Stannis was killed Tom - 21/07/2011 02:09:10 PM 2091 Views
I highly doubt he's dead A Deathwatch Guard - 21/07/2011 07:29:59 PM 2071 Views
The bluff makes the most sense: if the Boltons beat Stannis, why does he ask for Theon & Jeyne? Cannoli - 22/07/2011 12:01:30 AM 2121 Views
Yeah... Urza - 22/07/2011 12:27:53 AM 1997 Views
The letter sounded like the ravings of a psychopath loosing control DomA - 27/07/2011 02:56:21 AM 2164 Views
The Aegon Twist. Something about this doesn't add up. Libby - 21/07/2011 10:43:43 PM 2087 Views
Re: The Aegon Twist. Something about this doesn't add up. Werthead - 22/07/2011 05:42:13 PM 2183 Views
Alternatively.. fionwe1987 - 22/07/2011 09:13:46 PM 2014 Views
Which gods do you think are "real" in Martin's world? Tom - 22/07/2011 04:32:39 PM 2067 Views
None of them. Werthead - 22/07/2011 06:25:19 PM 1963 Views
Is that personal opinion or based on something Martin said? *NM* Tom - 22/07/2011 06:37:57 PM 1099 Views
Opinion Werthead - 22/07/2011 07:43:16 PM 2009 Views
Regardless of whether or not they actually get involved, their existence (or not) is signficant. Tom - 23/07/2011 02:17:48 AM 1872 Views
I think there are some god's, just given different names. Same with the magic. fionwe1987 - 22/07/2011 09:24:51 PM 1984 Views
Lose the apostrophe in the subject line. Then: on what basis do you assume this? Tom - 23/07/2011 02:28:49 AM 2027 Views
You might want to stop wasting time correcting others typos. As for the gods... fionwe1987 - 23/07/2011 04:53:59 AM 1913 Views
You might want to stop making them. Particularly glaring ones like that. Tom - 23/07/2011 05:01:03 AM 2081 Views
A typo can't be "glaring"... fionwe1987 - 23/07/2011 08:08:51 AM 1965 Views
Sure it can. Glaring: conspicuous or obvious. Tom - 23/07/2011 03:52:57 PM 1972 Views
Morality stems from god? A Deathwatch Guard - 22/07/2011 10:47:59 PM 1982 Views
Of course it does Tom - 23/07/2011 02:26:50 AM 1958 Views
On second thought, let's address the issue directly. Tom - 23/07/2011 05:14:59 AM 2065 Views
Perhaps... A Deathwatch Guard - 24/07/2011 07:03:24 PM 1992 Views
Its simple... Urza - 24/07/2011 07:37:11 PM 2005 Views
I disagree... fionwe1987 - 25/07/2011 04:10:04 AM 2048 Views
Bullshit. Tom - 25/07/2011 05:44:41 AM 1938 Views
Re: Bullshit. fionwe1987 - 25/07/2011 06:27:09 AM 1854 Views
The Seven probably has more power and influence than any other religion though. Werthead - 25/07/2011 07:51:59 PM 1888 Views
In Westeros, but I always got the feeling the Free Cities and other places didn't much care for them A Deathwatch Guard - 26/07/2011 10:53:45 PM 2011 Views
Westeros is the biggest coherent civilisation in the ASoIaF world. Werthead - 27/07/2011 12:56:21 AM 2025 Views
Some thoughts... fionwe1987 - 25/07/2011 04:54:05 AM 1962 Views
It's not an objective morality. Tom - 25/07/2011 05:41:33 AM 1948 Views
Its not that simple... fionwe1987 - 25/07/2011 06:21:39 AM 2021 Views
I don't disagree with most of what you said. I just reach a different conclusion. Tom - 25/07/2011 01:57:31 PM 1942 Views
Well... fionwe1987 - 25/07/2011 05:02:45 PM 1957 Views
How then do you deal with the Euthyphro dilemma? Tim - 16/08/2011 01:43:18 PM 1820 Views
Re: Which gods do you think are "real" in Martin's world? aragornital - 25/07/2011 02:24:07 PM 1882 Views
Whats the best new POV Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:14:05 AM 2004 Views
Barristan Werthead - 26/07/2011 12:23:20 PM 1975 Views
Didn't Aeron "Damphair" Greyjoy also only have 2 POVs Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:56:57 PM 2044 Views
Agreed. *NM* Legolas - 26/07/2011 11:33:11 PM 1135 Views
thirded. Jessie - 27/07/2011 04:16:26 PM 1850 Views
Absolutely *NM* ironclad - 29/07/2011 02:31:54 AM 1214 Views
Things you missed till they were pointed out via others or via a reread Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:23:53 AM 2150 Views
A bit. Werthead - 26/07/2011 12:32:32 PM 2109 Views
Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:46:54 PM 2066 Views
Re: Werthead - 27/07/2011 12:43:43 AM 2009 Views
Martin doesn't have to do anything Roland00 - 27/07/2011 01:33:36 AM 2086 Views
Re: Martin doesn't have to do anything DomA - 27/07/2011 04:38:19 AM 1944 Views
The crone who prophesied the stallion who mounts the world saw the stallions face Roland00 - 27/07/2011 05:13:28 AM 2090 Views
Re: Martin doesn't have to do anything aragornital - 27/07/2011 08:58:55 AM 1863 Views
Re: DomA - 27/07/2011 04:27:18 AM 2068 Views
I like your theory. Jessie - 27/07/2011 04:35:22 PM 2101 Views
Interesting... hadn't noticed some of those either. Legolas - 26/07/2011 11:32:18 PM 2072 Views
Re: Interesting... hadn't noticed some of those either. Roland00 - 27/07/2011 02:00:42 AM 1957 Views
Eh? Elaine - 29/07/2011 04:44:17 PM 2079 Views
This is complicated. Werthead - 31/07/2011 10:43:15 PM 2292 Views
Wait...a woman crowned for beauty was the victorious mystery knight? Tom - 01/08/2011 03:00:49 AM 1971 Views
It is believed the Knight of the Laughing Tree is one of two people Roland00 - 01/08/2011 04:47:21 AM 2034 Views
Yup. Werthead - 02/08/2011 12:03:26 AM 1916 Views
Also... fionwe1987 - 02/08/2011 07:17:43 AM 1999 Views
And yet, my huge brain figures it out Elaine - 04/08/2011 04:20:06 PM 1991 Views
I've read this scene yesterday and I missed this... aragornital - 02/08/2011 07:55:35 AM 1999 Views
Allow me Elaine - 05/08/2011 02:14:15 PM 1863 Views
thanks *NM* aragornital - 07/08/2011 07:28:21 AM 1089 Views
I thought this was pretty clear HousealThor - 07/08/2011 05:18:54 PM 1895 Views
Hizdahr a Harpy? Innocent or Not? Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:36:56 AM 2284 Views
Interesting idea. Werthead - 26/07/2011 12:25:11 PM 2084 Views
Re: Interesting idea. Jessie - 27/07/2011 04:25:02 PM 2010 Views
What is happening with the Maesters subplot? Any new leads? Roland00 - 26/07/2011 04:13:27 PM 2003 Views
Re: What is happening with the Maesters subplot? Any new leads? Werthead - 27/07/2011 12:49:52 AM 2215 Views
Re: What is happening with the Maesters subplot? Any new leads? DomA - 27/07/2011 03:49:18 AM 2134 Views
Re: A Dance with Dragons discussion thread jwk - 29/07/2011 01:42:57 AM 2201 Views
Okay. I suck. jwk - 29/07/2011 01:50:56 AM 1942 Views
Let me rephrase that... jwk - 29/07/2011 01:54:07 AM 1923 Views
Jon Snow is definitely Azor Ahai. Kotagg - 29/07/2011 07:31:17 PM 2530 Views
Hmm ironclad - 31/07/2011 01:52:03 PM 2433 Views
you are correct Jim - 31/07/2011 11:08:39 PM 2010 Views
Yup. Werthead - 31/07/2011 10:49:34 PM 1849 Views
But Shireen is a dragon... fionwe1987 - 01/08/2011 12:22:16 AM 2020 Views
I'm uncertain about that Larry - 01/08/2011 05:35:18 AM 1989 Views
True, but I wouldn't read too much into that. Werthead - 01/08/2011 11:42:29 PM 2265 Views
Where did he say that? fionwe1987 - 02/08/2011 07:18:39 AM 2136 Views
In interviews Werthead - 02/08/2011 02:21:28 PM 2096 Views
A little thought about Jon... aragornital - 02/08/2011 08:02:34 AM 2155 Views
Excellent point. Werthead - 02/08/2011 02:22:22 PM 2075 Views
Am I the only one who thinks... The Doctor - 09/08/2011 05:16:46 PM 2106 Views
I think Martin's gonna stick to Bran being the only one who does that ironclad - 10/08/2011 09:25:12 AM 2180 Views
It's possible, the problem is Jon's warging skill isn't all that well developed. Libby - 10/08/2011 10:53:32 PM 1962 Views
Anyone have any thoughts as to the purpose of Arya's storyline? Chas - 14/08/2011 06:28:09 PM 2023 Views
She's being trained as an assassin, so the question is who is she going to kill? Werthead - 16/08/2011 01:43:12 AM 1947 Views
Jon? Sir Tybalt - 18/08/2011 09:59:03 PM 2004 Views
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