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Re: Bullshit. fionwe1987 Send a noteboard - 25/07/2011 06:27:09 AM
You are assuming (1) that there is no way to know metaphysical laws (which is inherently limiting humanity for all eternity)

I assume no such thing. But knowing those laws at a later date doesn't change anything about morality today.

and (2) that Martin can't tell us what metaphysical laws apply in his universe (and we know that he can, at least as long as he draws breath in that overweight frame of his).

So what if he does? Unless he can show that his characters performed their actions while definitely knowing those metaphysical laws, his revealing these laws is meaningless to this debate.

It's clear that Martin can tell us who is real. Also, there is some magic underlying the Lord of Many Faces and R'llhor that we have NEVER seen with respect to the Seven. In fact, of ALL the religious systems, the Seven seems to be the most impotent.

For now. The followers of the Seven are disadvantaged by the fact that they are under the strongest influence of the Citadel, which seem to be working to suppress magical abilities.

Also remember that till aDwD, we had no idea there was any real magic behind the Faceless Men. And we've only just seen that there's nothing divine or godly about the Old Gods.
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A Dance with Dragons discussion thread Legolas - 11/07/2011 10:48:23 PM 6724 Views
Okay, first impressions. Basically spoiler-free, I suppose. ironclad - 11/07/2011 11:40:31 PM 2273 Views
I have it! *NM* fionwe1987 - 12/07/2011 05:42:27 AM 1233 Views
A general question to get the discussion started: will two more books be enough? RandAllThor - 12/07/2011 02:22:52 PM 2466 Views
A very good question *major spoilers, then* ironclad - 12/07/2011 02:55:05 PM 2434 Views
Oh, come on. If anyone can do it, Martin can. Tom - 15/07/2011 03:48:27 AM 2143 Views
It'll be tight. Werthead - 12/07/2011 04:32:39 PM 2472 Views
What does "resurrection-as-PWWP Jon" mean? Got it - Prince Who Was Promised! Sir Tybalt - 18/08/2011 08:59:44 PM 2354 Views
No but I think 3 will be possible Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:15:02 AM 2241 Views
what is Purple Wedding? *NM* aragornital - 27/07/2011 08:37:04 AM 1112 Views
Joffrey and Margaery wedding Roland00 - 27/07/2011 04:26:04 PM 2274 Views
Hero of the book? Werthead - 12/07/2011 10:12:02 PM 2573 Views
Lord Manderly gets my vote. RandAllThor - 12/07/2011 10:41:19 PM 2357 Views
Re: Hero of the book? ironclad - 12/07/2011 10:43:20 PM 2251 Views
Re: Hero of the book? ClubCaved - 12/07/2011 11:50:29 PM 2251 Views
Ohh, so that was what that was about. Legolas - 17/07/2011 07:08:19 PM 2305 Views
That's what I thought too. Jessie - 25/07/2011 01:48:50 AM 2266 Views
Victorian Greyjoy = Hero of the book *NM* Urza - 21/07/2011 06:20:25 AM 1296 Views
Barristan should be renamed as Ser Grandfather, you do not mess with Ser Grandfather *NM* Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:32:09 AM 1302 Views
Asshole of the book? ironclad - 12/07/2011 10:46:10 PM 2448 Views
Agreed. Werthead - 12/07/2011 11:18:07 PM 2401 Views
Seconded. He'd probably make my short list of Assholes of the Series to date. *NM* RandAllThor - 12/07/2011 11:25:04 PM 1177 Views
Yeah, little doubt there. Legolas - 17/07/2011 07:09:53 PM 2256 Views
Seriously... Urza - 18/07/2011 03:07:47 AM 2227 Views
Daenerys Targaryen & lifetime achievement award to Lord Rickard Stark Cannoli - 17/08/2011 12:38:40 AM 2169 Views
Idiot of the book. Werthead - 12/07/2011 11:21:51 PM 2481 Views
lol yep, definitely *NM* ironclad - 13/07/2011 08:12:42 AM 1229 Views
Re: Idiot of the book. Zaphod - 17/07/2011 12:42:20 AM 2349 Views
I think readers are being too hard on Quentyn, If anything I think Doran derserves more mocking. Libby - 17/07/2011 01:09:35 AM 2640 Views
Wait... no she doesn't! fionwe1987 - 17/07/2011 01:29:52 AM 2230 Views
She thinks both Werthead - 18/07/2011 12:22:59 AM 2172 Views
So... Legolas - 17/07/2011 07:18:24 PM 2221 Views
No, it's him. Werthead - 18/07/2011 12:25:33 AM 2261 Views
Is there any hot sex scenes? I won't be able to read it for a while *NM* Dark Knight - 13/07/2011 02:35:49 PM 1309 Views
One or two, but not all that long ones *NM* ironclad - 13/07/2011 02:57:12 PM 1268 Views
Great Ending ClubCaved - 14/07/2011 01:21:53 AM 2477 Views
Really? ironclad - 14/07/2011 09:36:01 AM 2414 Views
Re: Really? Werthead - 14/07/2011 09:38:34 AM 2061 Views
Re: Great Ending samgreenaway - 18/07/2011 02:05:00 AM 2206 Views
YES! Larry - 14/07/2011 02:38:48 AM 2032 Views
Sorry for the n00b reply, sentiments still apply Stephen - 16/07/2011 07:27:43 PM 2203 Views
Re: Sorry for the n00b reply, sentiments still apply Zaphod - 17/07/2011 12:45:52 AM 2181 Views
I don't know what to think... (spoiler) aragornital - 14/07/2011 08:59:39 AM 2417 Views
Probably not. Werthead - 14/07/2011 09:19:03 AM 2380 Views
Re: Probably not. aragornital - 14/07/2011 03:57:55 PM 2233 Views
I think the two are mixed up. Werthead - 14/07/2011 11:23:06 PM 2304 Views
Re: I think the two are mixed up. samgreenaway - 18/07/2011 02:10:29 AM 2134 Views
What made least sense for me as far as that is concerned... ironclad - 14/07/2011 11:51:20 AM 2295 Views
They didn't. Werthead - 14/07/2011 11:24:53 PM 2335 Views
I see ironclad - 15/07/2011 08:28:09 AM 2252 Views
Didn't Jon just announced Roland00 - 26/07/2011 02:51:07 AM 2178 Views
Something I totally missed first time through Werthead - 14/07/2011 09:40:33 AM 2610 Views
Re: Something I totally missed first time through Cannoli - 16/07/2011 01:24:23 AM 2504 Views
Yep, that's what he said/thought A Deathwatch Guard - 17/07/2011 05:02:32 AM 2347 Views
Re: Something I totally missed first time through Jessie - 23/07/2011 04:14:38 PM 2146 Views
Well that brings new meaning Roland00 - 26/07/2011 02:53:18 AM 2110 Views
I'm still not fully done, but about the Reek chapters... fionwe1987 - 14/07/2011 04:05:29 PM 2337 Views
Agreed ironclad - 14/07/2011 06:18:15 PM 2332 Views
There's another... fionwe1987 - 14/07/2011 07:16:11 PM 2140 Views
There's that... Legolas - 17/07/2011 01:12:33 AM 2190 Views
It's worse than that... fionwe1987 - 17/07/2011 01:26:50 AM 2235 Views
Torture is wrong, and those chapters kinda proved it. *NM* Roland00 - 26/07/2011 02:53:55 AM 1202 Views
GRRM completely shit the bed on Jon's arc within this book. That's the truth. Libby - 16/07/2011 12:51:08 AM 2391 Views
Having finished the book, my thoughts. (Spoilers) Variant - 16/07/2011 08:11:30 AM 2325 Views
Re: Having finished the book, my thoughts. (Spoilers) Zaphod - 17/07/2011 01:02:10 AM 2249 Views
Personally, I felt 'A Feast for Crows' was not only better written but more condensed. Libby - 17/07/2011 11:15:58 AM 2336 Views
Summed up like that there is no way to disagree with what you said ironclad - 17/07/2011 11:33:01 AM 2309 Views
You put words to my thoughts exactly. Sir Tybalt - 18/08/2011 09:17:09 PM 2204 Views
It should be re-titled A Jump with Sharks Tom - 17/07/2011 06:00:37 PM 2421 Views
Publishers are more interested in the bottom line. Werthead - 18/07/2011 12:31:56 AM 2191 Views
Sadly, I am likely overestimating the intelligence of the readers. Tom - 18/07/2011 03:05:12 AM 2421 Views
I felt bummed by Sanderson's new series. everynametaken - 18/07/2011 05:25:09 AM 2324 Views
I bought that book but have yet to read it. Tom - 18/07/2011 01:09:15 PM 2151 Views
Re: I bought that book but have yet to read it. Zach - 20/07/2011 06:45:46 AM 2200 Views
You might like this quote from House of Leaves by Mark Z Danielewski. heartbreak - 11/08/2011 03:42:05 PM 2425 Views
I'm afraid I have to agree with what seems to be the majority opinion... Legolas - 17/07/2011 07:35:47 PM 2299 Views
And on a different note entirely: is it me, or did the book need more proofreading? Legolas - 17/07/2011 07:39:15 PM 2198 Views
Re: And on a different note entirely: is it me, or did the book need more proofreading? samgreenaway - 18/07/2011 02:17:41 AM 2380 Views
Yeah, I agree. Stephen - 18/07/2011 05:59:58 PM 2241 Views
The book really shows it is AFFC part 2 Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:00:07 AM 2233 Views
No doubt, much like readers would've been more forgiving of aFfC if it'd been two years after SoS. Legolas - 26/07/2011 11:28:43 PM 2259 Views
Am I The Only One In Love With Arya's Chapters? *spoilers maybe* samgreenaway - 18/07/2011 02:22:00 AM 2243 Views
I enjoyed them, very solid chapters. Libby - 18/07/2011 12:50:43 PM 2350 Views
Unlike others, I won't start a separate thread to express my thoughts Larry - 19/07/2011 11:21:17 AM 2407 Views
Yeah, I wished there was a way to move them in here! ironclad - 19/07/2011 01:42:51 PM 2180 Views
Me too... but going and complaining about them seems so lame, too. Legolas - 19/07/2011 07:34:47 PM 2162 Views
I agree with Jens, good balanced review. *NM* Legolas - 19/07/2011 07:50:13 PM 1192 Views
I think you let him off too easily. Tom - 20/07/2011 04:19:07 AM 2286 Views
It might be that I expected even more of a longeur than what happened Larry - 20/07/2011 05:24:50 PM 2252 Views
Your review is a little too generous (in my opinion) Libby - 20/07/2011 06:57:45 AM 2480 Views
I find myself both depressed and let down... Zach - 20/07/2011 06:37:16 AM 2606 Views
Am I the only one who really likes... ironclad - 20/07/2011 06:04:00 PM 2386 Views
yeh, he is nice... *NM* aragornital - 20/07/2011 06:20:13 PM 1185 Views
Davos is probably my favourite Stephen - 20/07/2011 09:51:03 PM 2058 Views
I have to disagree in regards to Penny, she's a plot device and an annoying one at that. Variant - 21/07/2011 01:15:33 AM 2354 Views
Re: I have to disagree in regards to Penny, she's a plot device and an annoying one at that. Timthetrolloc - 21/07/2011 09:33:00 AM 2199 Views
The six bodies fired by the trebuchet Stephen - 20/07/2011 10:36:16 PM 2229 Views
Yes, I was confused by that too. Legolas - 20/07/2011 10:53:35 PM 2197 Views
Probably pale mare victims. Seige warfare via plague Urza - 20/07/2011 11:23:10 PM 2212 Views
Yes, I considered that as well... Legolas - 20/07/2011 11:48:32 PM 2176 Views
Have Quentyn's two mates already been sent off a this point? ironclad - 21/07/2011 02:03:15 PM 2254 Views
That could be it. *NM* Stephen - 21/07/2011 01:43:16 PM 1100 Views
It's not six bodies, it's six trebuchets throwing corpses instead of stones DomA - 27/07/2011 01:03:51 AM 2270 Views
That's how I read it as well. Six trebuchets opening up. *NM* Michael - 11/08/2011 12:19:09 PM 1162 Views
Stannis ironclad - 21/07/2011 08:43:40 AM 2190 Views
It's entirely possible Stannis was killed Tom - 21/07/2011 02:09:10 PM 2241 Views
I highly doubt he's dead A Deathwatch Guard - 21/07/2011 07:29:59 PM 2232 Views
The bluff makes the most sense: if the Boltons beat Stannis, why does he ask for Theon & Jeyne? Cannoli - 22/07/2011 12:01:30 AM 2274 Views
Yeah... Urza - 22/07/2011 12:27:53 AM 2158 Views
The letter sounded like the ravings of a psychopath loosing control DomA - 27/07/2011 02:56:21 AM 2326 Views
The Aegon Twist. Something about this doesn't add up. Libby - 21/07/2011 10:43:43 PM 2322 Views
Re: The Aegon Twist. Something about this doesn't add up. Werthead - 22/07/2011 05:42:13 PM 2352 Views
Alternatively.. fionwe1987 - 22/07/2011 09:13:46 PM 2180 Views
Which gods do you think are "real" in Martin's world? Tom - 22/07/2011 04:32:39 PM 2241 Views
None of them. Werthead - 22/07/2011 06:25:19 PM 2135 Views
Is that personal opinion or based on something Martin said? *NM* Tom - 22/07/2011 06:37:57 PM 1192 Views
Opinion Werthead - 22/07/2011 07:43:16 PM 2179 Views
Regardless of whether or not they actually get involved, their existence (or not) is signficant. Tom - 23/07/2011 02:17:48 AM 2048 Views
I think there are some god's, just given different names. Same with the magic. fionwe1987 - 22/07/2011 09:24:51 PM 2158 Views
Lose the apostrophe in the subject line. Then: on what basis do you assume this? Tom - 23/07/2011 02:28:49 AM 2195 Views
You might want to stop wasting time correcting others typos. As for the gods... fionwe1987 - 23/07/2011 04:53:59 AM 2096 Views
You might want to stop making them. Particularly glaring ones like that. Tom - 23/07/2011 05:01:03 AM 2259 Views
A typo can't be "glaring"... fionwe1987 - 23/07/2011 08:08:51 AM 2159 Views
Sure it can. Glaring: conspicuous or obvious. Tom - 23/07/2011 03:52:57 PM 2154 Views
Morality stems from god? A Deathwatch Guard - 22/07/2011 10:47:59 PM 2151 Views
Of course it does Tom - 23/07/2011 02:26:50 AM 2130 Views
On second thought, let's address the issue directly. Tom - 23/07/2011 05:14:59 AM 2260 Views
Perhaps... A Deathwatch Guard - 24/07/2011 07:03:24 PM 2167 Views
Its simple... Urza - 24/07/2011 07:37:11 PM 2167 Views
I disagree... fionwe1987 - 25/07/2011 04:10:04 AM 2228 Views
Bullshit. Tom - 25/07/2011 05:44:41 AM 2109 Views
Re: Bullshit. fionwe1987 - 25/07/2011 06:27:09 AM 2021 Views
The Seven probably has more power and influence than any other religion though. Werthead - 25/07/2011 07:51:59 PM 2049 Views
In Westeros, but I always got the feeling the Free Cities and other places didn't much care for them A Deathwatch Guard - 26/07/2011 10:53:45 PM 2187 Views
Westeros is the biggest coherent civilisation in the ASoIaF world. Werthead - 27/07/2011 12:56:21 AM 2216 Views
Some thoughts... fionwe1987 - 25/07/2011 04:54:05 AM 2177 Views
It's not an objective morality. Tom - 25/07/2011 05:41:33 AM 2123 Views
Its not that simple... fionwe1987 - 25/07/2011 06:21:39 AM 2198 Views
I don't disagree with most of what you said. I just reach a different conclusion. Tom - 25/07/2011 01:57:31 PM 2101 Views
Well... fionwe1987 - 25/07/2011 05:02:45 PM 2119 Views
How then do you deal with the Euthyphro dilemma? Tim - 16/08/2011 01:43:18 PM 1995 Views
Re: Which gods do you think are "real" in Martin's world? aragornital - 25/07/2011 02:24:07 PM 2068 Views
Whats the best new POV Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:14:05 AM 2188 Views
Barristan Werthead - 26/07/2011 12:23:20 PM 2139 Views
Didn't Aeron "Damphair" Greyjoy also only have 2 POVs Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:56:57 PM 2251 Views
Agreed. *NM* Legolas - 26/07/2011 11:33:11 PM 1235 Views
thirded. Jessie - 27/07/2011 04:16:26 PM 2031 Views
Absolutely *NM* ironclad - 29/07/2011 02:31:54 AM 1310 Views
Things you missed till they were pointed out via others or via a reread Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:23:53 AM 2342 Views
A bit. Werthead - 26/07/2011 12:32:32 PM 2290 Views
Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:46:54 PM 2221 Views
Re: Werthead - 27/07/2011 12:43:43 AM 2225 Views
Martin doesn't have to do anything Roland00 - 27/07/2011 01:33:36 AM 2257 Views
Re: Martin doesn't have to do anything DomA - 27/07/2011 04:38:19 AM 2115 Views
The crone who prophesied the stallion who mounts the world saw the stallions face Roland00 - 27/07/2011 05:13:28 AM 2296 Views
Re: Martin doesn't have to do anything aragornital - 27/07/2011 08:58:55 AM 2047 Views
Re: DomA - 27/07/2011 04:27:18 AM 2263 Views
I like your theory. Jessie - 27/07/2011 04:35:22 PM 2282 Views
Interesting... hadn't noticed some of those either. Legolas - 26/07/2011 11:32:18 PM 2250 Views
Re: Interesting... hadn't noticed some of those either. Roland00 - 27/07/2011 02:00:42 AM 2118 Views
Eh? Elaine - 29/07/2011 04:44:17 PM 2260 Views
This is complicated. Werthead - 31/07/2011 10:43:15 PM 2488 Views
Wait...a woman crowned for beauty was the victorious mystery knight? Tom - 01/08/2011 03:00:49 AM 2152 Views
It is believed the Knight of the Laughing Tree is one of two people Roland00 - 01/08/2011 04:47:21 AM 2246 Views
Yup. Werthead - 02/08/2011 12:03:26 AM 2086 Views
Also... fionwe1987 - 02/08/2011 07:17:43 AM 2161 Views
And yet, my huge brain figures it out Elaine - 04/08/2011 04:20:06 PM 2178 Views
I've read this scene yesterday and I missed this... aragornital - 02/08/2011 07:55:35 AM 2187 Views
Allow me Elaine - 05/08/2011 02:14:15 PM 2061 Views
thanks *NM* aragornital - 07/08/2011 07:28:21 AM 1168 Views
I thought this was pretty clear HousealThor - 07/08/2011 05:18:54 PM 2073 Views
Hizdahr a Harpy? Innocent or Not? Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:36:56 AM 2483 Views
Interesting idea. Werthead - 26/07/2011 12:25:11 PM 2252 Views
Re: Interesting idea. Jessie - 27/07/2011 04:25:02 PM 2193 Views
What is happening with the Maesters subplot? Any new leads? Roland00 - 26/07/2011 04:13:27 PM 2191 Views
Re: What is happening with the Maesters subplot? Any new leads? Werthead - 27/07/2011 12:49:52 AM 2393 Views
Re: What is happening with the Maesters subplot? Any new leads? DomA - 27/07/2011 03:49:18 AM 2339 Views
Re: A Dance with Dragons discussion thread jwk - 29/07/2011 01:42:57 AM 2369 Views
Okay. I suck. jwk - 29/07/2011 01:50:56 AM 2132 Views
Let me rephrase that... jwk - 29/07/2011 01:54:07 AM 2120 Views
Jon Snow is definitely Azor Ahai. Kotagg - 29/07/2011 07:31:17 PM 2708 Views
Hmm ironclad - 31/07/2011 01:52:03 PM 2601 Views
you are correct Jim - 31/07/2011 11:08:39 PM 2197 Views
Yup. Werthead - 31/07/2011 10:49:34 PM 2050 Views
But Shireen is a dragon... fionwe1987 - 01/08/2011 12:22:16 AM 2189 Views
I'm uncertain about that Larry - 01/08/2011 05:35:18 AM 2170 Views
True, but I wouldn't read too much into that. Werthead - 01/08/2011 11:42:29 PM 2452 Views
Where did he say that? fionwe1987 - 02/08/2011 07:18:39 AM 2307 Views
In interviews Werthead - 02/08/2011 02:21:28 PM 2265 Views
A little thought about Jon... aragornital - 02/08/2011 08:02:34 AM 2333 Views
Excellent point. Werthead - 02/08/2011 02:22:22 PM 2268 Views
Am I the only one who thinks... The Doctor - 09/08/2011 05:16:46 PM 2285 Views
I think Martin's gonna stick to Bran being the only one who does that ironclad - 10/08/2011 09:25:12 AM 2362 Views
It's possible, the problem is Jon's warging skill isn't all that well developed. Libby - 10/08/2011 10:53:32 PM 2154 Views
Anyone have any thoughts as to the purpose of Arya's storyline? Chas - 14/08/2011 06:28:09 PM 2203 Views
She's being trained as an assassin, so the question is who is she going to kill? Werthead - 16/08/2011 01:43:12 AM 2124 Views
Jon? Sir Tybalt - 18/08/2011 09:59:03 PM 2168 Views
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