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Daenerys Targaryen & lifetime achievement award to Lord Rickard Stark Cannoli Send a noteboard - 17/08/2011 12:38:40 AM
Ramsay Bolton, hands down. That man has to die painful. I sooo wished for Reek/Theon to do something about it! I probably didn't even hate Cersei as much in the last few books as I hated Ramsay here.


Ramsay's a clown. Eventually his antics will push people beyond their tolerances, no matter how boosted by their need to curry favor with his father. He's Cersei with balls - he'll destroy himself once his competent but too-paternally-tolerant father is out of the picture.

The real asshole, in my opinion, is Daenerys. She is as bad a ruler as Cersei, who had the decency to usurp her kingdom with far more subtlety and less bloodshed (or at least less that is directly her fault - a lot stems from the murder of Ned Stark, in explicit defiance of her wishes), than Daenerys, who invades and sacks Mereen for their explicit and provocative decision to be on her route of march, and to have old alliances and friendships with cities that refused to give her slaves cheaply. Her entire war in the previous books was unjustified, and now we see her ruling Mereen based entirely on her whims and wishes. The goodness of her intentions does not excuse the fact that her very presence and existence in the city is a crime and the Sons of the Harpy are completely justified in their executions of her Unsullied and shavepates and brazen beasts. Less so of the freedmen they later target, but how is that any different from her targeting people for their association with the slave trade upon which the entire city and region depend? I also note that her moral indignation to the existence of slavers and slavery comes only when she fails to profit from it herself, and then disguises her outright robbery of the Unsullied under the pretense of an emancipation crusade. She ordered her slave soldiers to kill anyone wearing a tokar back in Astapor, so how can she complain of her enemies turning around and serving her the same dish in Mereen? She whines about her "children" and their suffering, but the killings and murderers are happening because of her. The violence is because of her unjust and unwarranted invasion and occupation of a foreign city that did her no harm.

All of her whining about sacrifice for her people is obnoxious too. Her "rights" to rule anything depend entirely on her having been born the daughter of a king. She seems to be acting on the premise that her blood somehow elevates her above ANYONE, not just grants her the right to inherit her father's throne, as his last surviving child. She is a "queen" of the "dragon's" blood, so of course she sees herself as possessing the right to rule foreigners who have never accepted the rule of ANY Targaryen. Meanwhile, the people of Westeros, to whom she owes the DUTY of rulership, must wait on her pleasure. In this, Daenerys is not unlike Tommen in the comparison Varys draws for Kevan Lannister; she seeks the eventual crown of Westeros solely because it is her RIGHT. If she truly felt a duty to serve her people in the Seven Kingdoms, she would not expect them to wait on her personal growth experiment of practice-ruling Mereen.

Up until this book, the candidacy of Daenerys rested on the fact that she was the only one left who could reunite Westeros and bring peace and justice once more to the country. Now, with another candidate with all her qualifications, minus the uncontrollable fire-breathing, man-eating lizards, who has been raised as a proper Westeros noble and trained to rule, rather than haphazardly tutored by the Mad King's truest son, Daenerys just looks like more of the same. The only difference between her and Cersei, is the fact that some of her emotional whims which get enacted as policy might be founded on genuinely benevolent intentions.


As for Rickard Stark, if what Barbrey Dustin says about him is true, all of the sufferings and failures of his descendants can be laid at his feet. The fact that no Lord of Winterfell had ever built a sept in the castle strongly suggests they really never did marry southern women, or have much to do with the rest of the Seven Kingdoms in times past. There are certainly no reports of Starks or their bannerman mentioned in the Blackfyre Rebellion in the Dunk & Egg stories. Now, however, Rickard comes along and decides to start making connections with the Southern realms, and we get Lyanna unhappily betrothed to drunken, over-sexed glutton, encountering a selfish prince with all sorts of chick-magnet qualities, and getting herself kidnapped/eloped with him, touching off events that lead to her death and the murder of her father & brother. Then there is the betrothal to the idiotic Tully family, which can be seen as the source of most of the rest of the Starks' misfortunes (Ned becoming foster brothers with the aforementioned drunken asshole being the source of the rest). It was Edmure's incompetence that necessitated Robb's moving south to liberate Riverrun, and his ego that ruined Robb's strategy for getting Tywin Lannister out of the way. It was Catelyn's arrogance and blind-stupid trust in those who shared her childhood at Riverrun that precipitated the whole conflict in the first place, and compounded her idiocies by losing Tyrion, thus leaving the Starks and Tullys with the burden of starting the war, and none of the benefits of her actions, such as possession of a hostage. Nice going, Ricky. The Starks last 8,000 years by keeping to themselves and staying in the North, but no. He has to go sniffing around the South and gets a spoiled, idiotic granddaughter who betrays her father for the court society.
Cannoli
"Sometimes unhinged, sometimes unfair, always entertaining"
- The Crownless

“Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.” GK Chesteron
Deus Vult!
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A Dance with Dragons discussion thread - 11/07/2011 10:48:23 PM 6812 Views
Okay, first impressions. Basically spoiler-free, I suppose. - 11/07/2011 11:40:31 PM 2370 Views
I have it! *NM* - 12/07/2011 05:42:27 AM 1299 Views
A general question to get the discussion started: will two more books be enough? - 12/07/2011 02:22:52 PM 2564 Views
A very good question *major spoilers, then* - 12/07/2011 02:55:05 PM 2537 Views
Oh, come on. If anyone can do it, Martin can. - 15/07/2011 03:48:27 AM 2230 Views
It'll be tight. - 12/07/2011 04:32:39 PM 2565 Views
No but I think 3 will be possible - 26/07/2011 03:15:02 AM 2328 Views
what is Purple Wedding? *NM* - 27/07/2011 08:37:04 AM 1163 Views
Joffrey and Margaery wedding - 27/07/2011 04:26:04 PM 2374 Views
Hero of the book? - 12/07/2011 10:12:02 PM 2658 Views
Lord Manderly gets my vote. - 12/07/2011 10:41:19 PM 2446 Views
Re: Hero of the book? - 12/07/2011 10:43:20 PM 2344 Views
Re: Hero of the book? - 12/07/2011 11:50:29 PM 2329 Views
Ohh, so that was what that was about. - 17/07/2011 07:08:19 PM 2395 Views
That's what I thought too. - 25/07/2011 01:48:50 AM 2344 Views
Victorian Greyjoy = Hero of the book *NM* - 21/07/2011 06:20:25 AM 1353 Views
Asshole of the book? - 12/07/2011 10:46:10 PM 2814 Views
Agreed. - 12/07/2011 11:18:07 PM 2490 Views
Yeah, little doubt there. - 17/07/2011 07:09:53 PM 2354 Views
Seriously... - 18/07/2011 03:07:47 AM 2319 Views
Daenerys Targaryen & lifetime achievement award to Lord Rickard Stark - 17/08/2011 12:38:40 AM 2275 Views
Idiot of the book. - 12/07/2011 11:21:51 PM 2566 Views
lol yep, definitely *NM* - 13/07/2011 08:12:42 AM 1281 Views
Re: Idiot of the book. - 17/07/2011 12:42:20 AM 2437 Views
Wait... no she doesn't! - 17/07/2011 01:29:52 AM 2329 Views
She thinks both - 18/07/2011 12:22:59 AM 2257 Views
So... - 17/07/2011 07:18:24 PM 2322 Views
No, it's him. - 18/07/2011 12:25:33 AM 2358 Views
Is there any hot sex scenes? I won't be able to read it for a while *NM* - 13/07/2011 02:35:49 PM 1368 Views
One or two, but not all that long ones *NM* - 13/07/2011 02:57:12 PM 1337 Views
Great Ending - 14/07/2011 01:21:53 AM 2556 Views
Really? - 14/07/2011 09:36:01 AM 2488 Views
Re: Really? - 14/07/2011 09:38:34 AM 2149 Views
Re: Great Ending - 18/07/2011 02:05:00 AM 2312 Views
YES! - 14/07/2011 02:38:48 AM 2131 Views
Sorry for the n00b reply, sentiments still apply - 16/07/2011 07:27:43 PM 2283 Views
Re: Sorry for the n00b reply, sentiments still apply - 17/07/2011 12:45:52 AM 2272 Views
I don't know what to think... (spoiler) - 14/07/2011 08:59:39 AM 2515 Views
Probably not. - 14/07/2011 09:19:03 AM 2480 Views
Re: Probably not. - 14/07/2011 03:57:55 PM 2326 Views
I think the two are mixed up. - 14/07/2011 11:23:06 PM 2386 Views
Re: I think the two are mixed up. - 18/07/2011 02:10:29 AM 2220 Views
What made least sense for me as far as that is concerned... - 14/07/2011 11:51:20 AM 2382 Views
They didn't. - 14/07/2011 11:24:53 PM 2430 Views
I see - 15/07/2011 08:28:09 AM 2346 Views
Didn't Jon just announced - 26/07/2011 02:51:07 AM 2264 Views
Something I totally missed first time through - 14/07/2011 09:40:33 AM 2699 Views
Re: Something I totally missed first time through - 16/07/2011 01:24:23 AM 2592 Views
Yep, that's what he said/thought - 17/07/2011 05:02:32 AM 2436 Views
Re: Something I totally missed first time through - 23/07/2011 04:14:38 PM 2214 Views
Well that brings new meaning - 26/07/2011 02:53:18 AM 2189 Views
I'm still not fully done, but about the Reek chapters... - 14/07/2011 04:05:29 PM 2431 Views
Agreed - 14/07/2011 06:18:15 PM 2421 Views
There's another... - 14/07/2011 07:16:11 PM 2227 Views
There's that... - 17/07/2011 01:12:33 AM 2271 Views
It's worse than that... - 17/07/2011 01:26:50 AM 2314 Views
Torture is wrong, and those chapters kinda proved it. *NM* - 26/07/2011 02:53:55 AM 1251 Views
Having finished the book, my thoughts. (Spoilers) - 16/07/2011 08:11:30 AM 2443 Views
Re: Having finished the book, my thoughts. (Spoilers) - 17/07/2011 01:02:10 AM 2337 Views
You put words to my thoughts exactly. - 18/08/2011 09:17:09 PM 2306 Views
It should be re-titled A Jump with Sharks - 17/07/2011 06:00:37 PM 2521 Views
Publishers are more interested in the bottom line. - 18/07/2011 12:31:56 AM 2292 Views
Sadly, I am likely overestimating the intelligence of the readers. - 18/07/2011 03:05:12 AM 2525 Views
I felt bummed by Sanderson's new series. - 18/07/2011 05:25:09 AM 2441 Views
I bought that book but have yet to read it. - 18/07/2011 01:09:15 PM 2230 Views
Re: I bought that book but have yet to read it. - 20/07/2011 06:45:46 AM 2285 Views
You might like this quote from House of Leaves by Mark Z Danielewski. - 11/08/2011 03:42:05 PM 2547 Views
I'm afraid I have to agree with what seems to be the majority opinion... - 17/07/2011 07:35:47 PM 2397 Views
And on a different note entirely: is it me, or did the book need more proofreading? - 17/07/2011 07:39:15 PM 2293 Views
Yeah, I agree. - 18/07/2011 05:59:58 PM 2331 Views
The book really shows it is AFFC part 2 - 26/07/2011 03:00:07 AM 2319 Views
Am I The Only One In Love With Arya's Chapters? *spoilers maybe* - 18/07/2011 02:22:00 AM 2329 Views
I enjoyed them, very solid chapters. - 18/07/2011 12:50:43 PM 2460 Views
Unlike others, I won't start a separate thread to express my thoughts - 19/07/2011 11:21:17 AM 2500 Views
Yeah, I wished there was a way to move them in here! - 19/07/2011 01:42:51 PM 2264 Views
Me too... but going and complaining about them seems so lame, too. - 19/07/2011 07:34:47 PM 2252 Views
I agree with Jens, good balanced review. *NM* - 19/07/2011 07:50:13 PM 1242 Views
I think you let him off too easily. - 20/07/2011 04:19:07 AM 2397 Views
Your review is a little too generous (in my opinion) - 20/07/2011 06:57:45 AM 2591 Views
I find myself both depressed and let down... - 20/07/2011 06:37:16 AM 2697 Views
Am I the only one who really likes... - 20/07/2011 06:04:00 PM 2474 Views
yeh, he is nice... *NM* - 20/07/2011 06:20:13 PM 1242 Views
Davos is probably my favourite - 20/07/2011 09:51:03 PM 2146 Views
The six bodies fired by the trebuchet - 20/07/2011 10:36:16 PM 2318 Views
Yes, I was confused by that too. - 20/07/2011 10:53:35 PM 2283 Views
Probably pale mare victims. Seige warfare via plague - 20/07/2011 11:23:10 PM 2308 Views
Yes, I considered that as well... - 20/07/2011 11:48:32 PM 2266 Views
Have Quentyn's two mates already been sent off a this point? - 21/07/2011 02:03:15 PM 2340 Views
That could be it. *NM* - 21/07/2011 01:43:16 PM 1152 Views
Stannis - 21/07/2011 08:43:40 AM 2270 Views
It's entirely possible Stannis was killed - 21/07/2011 02:09:10 PM 2340 Views
I highly doubt he's dead - 21/07/2011 07:29:59 PM 2335 Views
The bluff makes the most sense: if the Boltons beat Stannis, why does he ask for Theon & Jeyne? - 22/07/2011 12:01:30 AM 2370 Views
Yeah... - 22/07/2011 12:27:53 AM 2243 Views
The Aegon Twist. Something about this doesn't add up. - 21/07/2011 10:43:43 PM 2438 Views
Re: The Aegon Twist. Something about this doesn't add up. - 22/07/2011 05:42:13 PM 2456 Views
Alternatively.. - 22/07/2011 09:13:46 PM 2262 Views
Which gods do you think are "real" in Martin's world? - 22/07/2011 04:32:39 PM 2335 Views
None of them. - 22/07/2011 06:25:19 PM 2228 Views
Is that personal opinion or based on something Martin said? *NM* - 22/07/2011 06:37:57 PM 1251 Views
Opinion - 22/07/2011 07:43:16 PM 2279 Views
I think there are some god's, just given different names. Same with the magic. - 22/07/2011 09:24:51 PM 2243 Views
Lose the apostrophe in the subject line. Then: on what basis do you assume this? - 23/07/2011 02:28:49 AM 2277 Views
You might want to stop wasting time correcting others typos. As for the gods... - 23/07/2011 04:53:59 AM 2181 Views
You might want to stop making them. Particularly glaring ones like that. - 23/07/2011 05:01:03 AM 2345 Views
A typo can't be "glaring"... - 23/07/2011 08:08:51 AM 2239 Views
Sure it can. Glaring: conspicuous or obvious. - 23/07/2011 03:52:57 PM 2246 Views
Morality stems from god? - 22/07/2011 10:47:59 PM 2249 Views
Of course it does - 23/07/2011 02:26:50 AM 2229 Views
On second thought, let's address the issue directly. - 23/07/2011 05:14:59 AM 2363 Views
Perhaps... - 24/07/2011 07:03:24 PM 2260 Views
Its simple... - 24/07/2011 07:37:11 PM 2249 Views
I disagree... - 25/07/2011 04:10:04 AM 2335 Views
Bullshit. - 25/07/2011 05:44:41 AM 2190 Views
Re: Bullshit. - 25/07/2011 06:27:09 AM 2106 Views
Some thoughts... - 25/07/2011 04:54:05 AM 2262 Views
It's not an objective morality. - 25/07/2011 05:41:33 AM 2222 Views
Its not that simple... - 25/07/2011 06:21:39 AM 2301 Views
I don't disagree with most of what you said. I just reach a different conclusion. - 25/07/2011 01:57:31 PM 2190 Views
Well... - 25/07/2011 05:02:45 PM 2228 Views
How then do you deal with the Euthyphro dilemma? - 16/08/2011 01:43:18 PM 2090 Views
Re: Which gods do you think are "real" in Martin's world? - 25/07/2011 02:24:07 PM 2151 Views
Whats the best new POV - 26/07/2011 03:14:05 AM 2283 Views
Barristan - 26/07/2011 12:23:20 PM 2236 Views
Didn't Aeron "Damphair" Greyjoy also only have 2 POVs - 26/07/2011 03:56:57 PM 2332 Views
Agreed. *NM* - 26/07/2011 11:33:11 PM 1297 Views
thirded. - 27/07/2011 04:16:26 PM 2125 Views
Absolutely *NM* - 29/07/2011 02:31:54 AM 1366 Views
Things you missed till they were pointed out via others or via a reread - 26/07/2011 03:23:53 AM 2428 Views
A bit. - 26/07/2011 12:32:32 PM 2376 Views
- 26/07/2011 03:46:54 PM 2309 Views
Re: - 27/07/2011 12:43:43 AM 2311 Views
Martin doesn't have to do anything - 27/07/2011 01:33:36 AM 2343 Views
Re: Martin doesn't have to do anything - 27/07/2011 04:38:19 AM 2208 Views
Re: Martin doesn't have to do anything - 27/07/2011 08:58:55 AM 2143 Views
Re: - 27/07/2011 04:27:18 AM 2364 Views
I like your theory. - 27/07/2011 04:35:22 PM 2376 Views
Interesting... hadn't noticed some of those either. - 26/07/2011 11:32:18 PM 2339 Views
Re: Interesting... hadn't noticed some of those either. - 27/07/2011 02:00:42 AM 2207 Views
Eh? - 29/07/2011 04:44:17 PM 2349 Views
This is complicated. - 31/07/2011 10:43:15 PM 2578 Views
Wait...a woman crowned for beauty was the victorious mystery knight? - 01/08/2011 03:00:49 AM 2232 Views
It is believed the Knight of the Laughing Tree is one of two people - 01/08/2011 04:47:21 AM 2349 Views
Yup. - 02/08/2011 12:03:26 AM 2176 Views
Also... - 02/08/2011 07:17:43 AM 2245 Views
And yet, my huge brain figures it out - 04/08/2011 04:20:06 PM 2280 Views
I've read this scene yesterday and I missed this... - 02/08/2011 07:55:35 AM 2286 Views
Allow me - 05/08/2011 02:14:15 PM 2152 Views
thanks *NM* - 07/08/2011 07:28:21 AM 1223 Views
I thought this was pretty clear - 07/08/2011 05:18:54 PM 2162 Views
Hizdahr a Harpy? Innocent or Not? - 26/07/2011 03:36:56 AM 2563 Views
Interesting idea. - 26/07/2011 12:25:11 PM 2340 Views
Re: Interesting idea. - 27/07/2011 04:25:02 PM 2270 Views
What is happening with the Maesters subplot? Any new leads? - 26/07/2011 04:13:27 PM 2300 Views
Re: What is happening with the Maesters subplot? Any new leads? - 27/07/2011 12:49:52 AM 2473 Views
Re: What is happening with the Maesters subplot? Any new leads? - 27/07/2011 03:49:18 AM 2440 Views
Re: A Dance with Dragons discussion thread - 29/07/2011 01:42:57 AM 2463 Views
Okay. I suck. - 29/07/2011 01:50:56 AM 2217 Views
Let me rephrase that... - 29/07/2011 01:54:07 AM 2221 Views
Jon Snow is definitely Azor Ahai. - 29/07/2011 07:31:17 PM 2789 Views
Hmm - 31/07/2011 01:52:03 PM 2700 Views
you are correct - 31/07/2011 11:08:39 PM 2284 Views
Yup. - 31/07/2011 10:49:34 PM 2157 Views
But Shireen is a dragon... - 01/08/2011 12:22:16 AM 2281 Views
I'm uncertain about that - 01/08/2011 05:35:18 AM 2253 Views
True, but I wouldn't read too much into that. - 01/08/2011 11:42:29 PM 2541 Views
Where did he say that? - 02/08/2011 07:18:39 AM 2396 Views
In interviews - 02/08/2011 02:21:28 PM 2352 Views
A little thought about Jon... - 02/08/2011 08:02:34 AM 2416 Views
Excellent point. - 02/08/2011 02:22:22 PM 2355 Views
Am I the only one who thinks... - 09/08/2011 05:16:46 PM 2384 Views
I think Martin's gonna stick to Bran being the only one who does that - 10/08/2011 09:25:12 AM 2453 Views
Anyone have any thoughts as to the purpose of Arya's storyline? - 14/08/2011 06:28:09 PM 2294 Views
She's being trained as an assassin, so the question is who is she going to kill? - 16/08/2011 01:43:12 AM 2223 Views
Jon? - 18/08/2011 09:59:03 PM 2259 Views

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