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Re: Yet, regrettably, not done misusing it. Joel Send a noteboard - 11/02/2012 02:58:00 AM
Regarding the definition I linked, "the condition of having something lying heavily on ones mind" cannot be involuntarily maintained absent outside imposition. Such outside imposition DOES qualify as "oppression" (which is the gist of your quoted definition,) but a person voluntarily tolerating it is NOT oppressed by anyone, because "self-oppression" remains oxymoronic.

Regarding the definition YOU cite, little needs to be said: Oppressive "laws, customs, or practices" are manifestly imposed by third parties, and the qualifier "institutionalized" only restricts that to "systematic" cases.

Consequently, there is a good case gay marriage bans illegally oppress adults, but contraception laws have not since the last of the Comstock Acts contraception provisions was overturned (slightly) before Roe v. Wade and Doe v. Bolton. Speaking of which, for a genuine example of sexual oppression, refer once again to Mary Does below linked affidavit. Regardless, that means sexual oppression of reproductive choice is impossible for adults under current law (which few seek to change,) and the reproductive choices of minors are assigned to their legal guardians, not from oppression, but to prevent sexual abuse of those unable to give consent.

Sexual oppression is therefore non-existent within the subject of this thread, unless it turned into a gay marriage thread when I was not looking. :P

Customs and practices are manifestly imposed by third parties? Really?

At this point, it doesn't seem like you have any functional concept of how societies form or function. Seriously, it's right here: "If oppressive consequences accrue to institutional laws, customs, or practices, the institution is oppressive whether or not the individuals maintaining those practices have oppressive intentions." If you've never studied how people reason in social settings and about social issues, you really shouldn't continue to speak from such a position of ignorance.

"If oppressive consequences accrue to institutional laws, customs, or practices...." These do not, which was my original point. Laws, customs and practices are manifestly imposed by third parties, yes; otherwise, they are not imposed at all, and their observance is voluntary (or nonexistent.)

Actually, I meant the section two paragraphs lower (hence I placed the word "overwhelm," which the referenced section contains, in quotes:)
And that's what the data show. Ryan's bill targets women with family incomes below 200 percent of the poverty rate, since they have higher rates of unintended pregnancy and more difficulty finding or affording contraception. Among these women, the percentage using contraception declined from 1995 to 2002. As predicted by contraception opponents, the rate of sexual activity also declined, though only slightly. Even better, from a pro-life standpoint, when these women got pregnant unintentionally, the percentage who chose abortion fell.

Less contraception, less sex, more women choosing life. So, the abortion rate among these women went down, right?

Wrong. It went up. The decline in contraception overwhelmed the decline in sexual activity, resulting in a higher rate of unintended pregnancy. And the increase in unintended pregnancy overwhelmed the increase in women choosing life, resulting in more abortions. From a pro-life standpoint, trading contraception for abstinence and a "culture of life" was a net loss.

So a seven year CDC study shows a positive correlation between rates of contraceptive use and sexual activity. Increased contraception DOES encourage sex—it just reduces pregnancy far more (which I explicitly noted in my initial reference.) That survey was not restricted to teens, but it does seem a higher chance of pregnancy deters sexual activity; again, the effect on pregnancy and abortion is just greatly offset by contraceptions reduction of pregnancy.

I would even say that study makes a very good argument contraception greatly reduces abortions overall DESPITE encouraging sexual activity (hence the Slate article using it as such.) However, arguing increased contraception use does not encourage sexual activity is contradicted, not only by logic and common sense (though those cetainly contradict it,) but data.

I see. I have been unable to track down the specific CDC data they claim to cite, since their link only goes to a homepage. (I did manage to find a graph: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/05/05/MNGTIIL98P1.DTL but it doesn't talk about rates of sexual activity.) While looking, I found this more recent study: http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/series/sr_23/sr23_031.pdf

It shows sexual activity among teenagers strictly decreasing over the past two decades, while use of contraception has increased. Whatever small correlation may have been seen in comparing the 1995-2002 data based on poverty level does not seem to extend to teenagers as a whole. The existence of that effect would not surprise me, but again, I have seen no evidence for it, and talking about human behavior based only on "common sense" is rarely advisable.

In any case, the situation certainly is not one which permits unquantified statements about birth control increasing sex rates. Such statements just feed those who oppose it, who seem to think of the situation as being something like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upUg_mtCWq0

Common sense is just basic reason, and quite useful, ESPECIALLY for human behavior. It has limitations (e.g. complex dynamics, particularly with counterintuitive outcomes) but serves well if we recognize those limitations. Recognizing limitations of not just our knowledge but means of acquiring it is also useful. At the risk of a tangent, I cannot help wishing schools spent more time on division by zero so people do not forget it exists, or expect to define it "someday, when we know more."

In this case, we have conflicting data: One study of a large but incomplete group shows a positive correlation between contraception use and sexual activity, but another study of a large partially overlapping group shows a negative correlation. Absent additional studies, preferably of ALL people rather than just those with low incomes or in their teens, firm conclusions FROM DATA are impossible. However, FROM LOGIC, we can indisputably say increased contraception use in no way deters sex, which most people enjoy (though I do not have any data handy to support that "proposition.") Thus contraception can ONLY encourage sexual activity.

While increased contraception use significantly reduces the risk of pregnancy, and therefore a deterrent to sexual activity, I have not seen even a speculative suggestion of why it would encourage sexual activity, so it is hard to see how it could cause the reduced sexual activity in the study you cited. The most logical explanation is probably that promoting abstinence and other things styled as "oppression" actually HAVE increased teen abstinence, though increased awareness that contraception is imperfect may have been a factor also. That should not obscure the fact promoting abstinence remains an inadequate solution to teen pregnancy, because many teens will disregard it, and thus the proper use of birth control, along with its risks and limitations, should be taught in school health classes.

You might also be interested in the last article I meant to link, but instead replaced with a second link to the reality check article: http://www.christian.org.uk/wp-content/downloads/contraceptionguide.pdf

Again, that is from an openly pro life UK doctor purporting to analyze which contraception is and is not "pro life." It DOES take the "life begins at conception" perspective, but for precisely that reason attempts to exhaustively list (and PROMOTE) contraception without that complication.

She seems to do a good job overall, although she appears unaware of some relevant research, e.g. this study (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11246602) on fertility after removing Implanon. Also, she cites statistics showing that over 50% of pregnancies occurring when IUDs are present end in spontaneous abortion (i.e. miscarriage), but this rate is not significantly different in pregnancies when IUDs are absent (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7117572), putting any causal link on the shaky side of plausible. Again, though, a pretty well-reasoned effort overall.

I suspect it depends on how one defines "miscarriage." Since preventing uterine implantation of fertilized eggs is a primary goal of IUDs, they SHOULD raise rates of "spontaneous abortion" as defined by those who believe life begins at conception: That is the POINT. If they do not, they are just uncomfortable placebos. What is critical is that is one small part of a "life begins at conception" article premised on promoting effective contraception. It is proof of pro-contraception members of even the strictest pro life factions, which makes categorically dismissing all pro lifers as anti-contraception unfair and inaccurate.

Her very existence completely destroys your argument she, Tim Ryan and others are "silent" (or NON-existent,) because they manifestly are not. Painting all pro lifers as anti-contraception does people like that a great disservice, just as painting all pro choicers as supporting "abortionplexes" does them one. Actions certainly count more than words, and they are acting, despite significant heat from pro lifers who DO oppose contraception. Basically, the pro life movement is increasingly divided over this issue, just as they are over capital punishment.

My argument is not simply that they are silent or non-existent; it is that they do not constitute a silent majority within the movement. This is very clear from her description of how Ryan was treated by the movement at large, who acted precisely as I have described them.

Ryans legislation earned many pro life critics; they do not necessarily represent "the movement at large." It is VERY "large," with widely disparate views, the point I (and nossy) have tried to convey. Just a couple days ago I saw a story about a pro life group assailed by far right pro lifers for promoting the anti-mercury campaign as "pro life." It basically went as one would expect; some critical pro life groups even took a moment to explicitly deny global warming along the way. Part of the problem is the sheer size of the pro life movement that not only creates great diversity, but attracts demagogues who care no more about fetuses than about babies, far less than they care about a way to rally millions to their far right agenda. This covers that well: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1PUFNZgWD0

Restricting human behavior is a matter of law, not science, hence your reference to bills that define miscarriage as manslaughter:
If they really felt that a single-celled zygote is morally equivalent to a person and abortion is murder, they would not act they way they do. Murder is a more important issue than birth control or teenage sex. Also, most pregnancies end in miscarriage, without the woman even knowing she was pregnant; a "pro-lifer" ought to see this as an epidemic. I have almost never encountered any who realize this, let alone try to do anything about it. (Every once in a while, some state legislator ends up trying to criminalize miscarriages, and quickly gets eaten alive in the public eye.)
You SUBSEQUENTLY referenced research when nossy and I responded to that. "Murder is a more important issue than birth control or teenage sex"? Which clinical study concluded that? :P Constructing a strawman is when someone puts an argument in anothers mouth (an ironic accusation since IT WAS MY OBJECTION TO YOUR INITIAL ARGUMENT. :rolleyes:) There is nothing wrong with knocking down a flawed argument someone actually presents themselves. Incidentally, while pro lifers have several times introduced legislation criminalizing drunk drivers and the like causing miscarriages in OTHERS, the only case I found of legislation criminalizing it for pregnant women specifically exempted those who did not know they were pregnant, and thus had nothing to do with that "epidemic."

You have entirely misunderstood that paragraph. I referred to it as an "epidemic" to indicate that it is a problem of medicine, not law. The reference to miscarriage-manslaughter laws was sarcastic, because they miss that point.

Was the reference to murder also medical? Discussing what people MAY rather than SHOULD do is a legal issue, not medical. That is why this whole thing started over a Congressional invesitagion of allegations Planned Parenthood used federal funds for abortion (which is illegal, but not "immedical.")


The word "also" denotes the beginning of a separate point. Did I actually just have to explain the word "also" in this conversation?

Separate, but related. You led off mentioning the contention abortion is murder and the following sentence noted murder has moral precedence over birth control. Miscarriage was only referenced as a medical rather than legal concern ONCE, auxillary to the initial argument and preliminary reinforcing it by pointing out the rarity of "legislator[s]... trying to criminalize miscarriages." That was the second (and only other) mention of miscarriages, and even that was in the context of law, not medicine. So, yeah, if three of five sentences in a paragraph that begins and ends discussing law are also about law, and only one of the remaining two is about medicine, I am unlikely to conclude the paragraph is about a medical epidemic. Do I really need to explain how paragraphs work? I take it you remain unconvinced self-righteous condescension will not persuade pro lifers to alter their position. :P From what I can tell, you, I and nossy are in basic agreement on the legal and policy issues, but the reaction from pro choice people like us suggests your advocacy could use improvement. ;)
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This message last edited by Joel on 11/02/2012 at 02:59:24 AM
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Susan G. Komen cuts funds to Planned Parenthood. (with updated edit) - 02/02/2012 04:32:27 PM 2133 Views
The most annoying part is in the sixth paragraph- abortions are only a small part of their thing - 02/02/2012 05:08:07 PM 996 Views
I agree. - 02/02/2012 05:20:17 PM 936 Views
I can understand it though. - 02/02/2012 05:45:55 PM 985 Views
I can too, it just isn't for me. - 02/02/2012 05:58:33 PM 907 Views
Actually, there are longer-acting forms of birth control than the pill. - 03/02/2012 12:37:42 AM 915 Views
I do think that preventing abortions is their primary goal. - 03/02/2012 01:08:05 AM 882 Views
If they don't see that link, it's because they haven't looked. - 03/02/2012 02:42:42 AM 953 Views
That is a little unfair. - 03/02/2012 12:48:46 PM 1158 Views
Won't someone please think of the children?! - 04/02/2012 05:03:27 AM 965 Views
I think you're leaving out some important points. - 04/02/2012 03:40:48 PM 909 Views
Ah, the good ol' silent majority. - 04/02/2012 07:32:29 PM 870 Views
So which moron is feeding you this crap? - 04/02/2012 10:27:15 PM 903 Views
A zygote isn't a person, because it doesn't have a brain. - 05/02/2012 12:33:29 AM 904 Views
It worries me when we think alike.... - 05/02/2012 01:22:35 PM 930 Views
Brain waves at 8 weeks are a myth. - 05/02/2012 08:46:06 PM 1041 Views
"brain function... appears to be reliably present in the fetus at about eight weeks' gestation." - 05/02/2012 10:42:35 PM 941 Views
Oh please. - 05/02/2012 11:13:50 PM 908 Views
Re: Oh please yourself. - 06/02/2012 09:15:26 PM 798 Views
Quite a telling reply. - 07/02/2012 04:38:20 AM 854 Views
Re: I quite agree. - 08/02/2012 06:03:23 PM 1036 Views
You're taking an issue of objective facts and treating it like a day of playground gossip. - 09/02/2012 03:47:06 AM 911 Views
No, your source, in which there is very little that is objective, did that for me. - 11/02/2012 02:59:45 AM 935 Views
I see you have continued to provide no factual arguments. - 14/02/2012 04:53:28 AM 1151 Views
I presented factual rebuttals. - 19/02/2012 01:56:45 AM 953 Views
You continue to miss the point. - 23/02/2012 10:22:24 PM 1041 Views
Well, yes. - 04/02/2012 11:14:47 PM 965 Views
A silent majority may as well not exist, if it has no tangible effects. - 05/02/2012 12:54:34 AM 909 Views
You ignoring it is not the same thing as it having no tangible effect. - 05/02/2012 02:11:36 AM 1003 Views
Ignoring what? You haven't shown me anything solid. - 05/02/2012 05:25:23 AM 901 Views
It's ok, we're done. *NM* - 05/02/2012 09:29:05 AM 544 Views
Since few people oppose ADULT contraception access, that might be wise in this case. - 04/02/2012 08:25:49 PM 991 Views
Re: Since few people oppose ADULT contraception access, that might be wise in this case. - 05/02/2012 02:11:28 AM 889 Views
If you are arguing most sex ed opponents are naïve/ignorant, I agree. - 05/02/2012 08:42:17 AM 746 Views
Re: If you are arguing most sex ed opponents are naïve/ignorant, I agree. - 05/02/2012 10:04:59 PM 909 Views
Re: If you are arguing most sex ed opponents are naïve/ignorant, I agree. - 06/02/2012 08:57:38 PM 888 Views
I'm done discussing my use of the term "oppression." The Tim Ryan stuff is interesting, though. - 07/02/2012 05:37:05 AM 979 Views
Yet, regrettably, not done misusing it. - 08/02/2012 06:01:32 PM 1060 Views
Re: Yet, regrettably, not done misusing it. - 09/02/2012 05:30:58 AM 943 Views
Re: Yet, regrettably, not done misusing it. - 11/02/2012 02:58:00 AM 975 Views
Re: Yet, regrettably, not done misusing it. - 14/02/2012 04:29:08 AM 1029 Views
Re: Yet, regrettably, not done misusing it. - 19/02/2012 01:54:30 AM 962 Views
Re: Yet, regrettably, not done misusing it. - 23/02/2012 10:59:32 PM 1243 Views
Re: Yet, regrettably, not done misusing it. - 07/03/2012 01:47:44 AM 900 Views
Re: Yet, regrettably, not done misusing it. - 15/03/2012 10:27:23 PM 1159 Views
There are problems with the implants - 03/02/2012 01:42:55 AM 933 Views
You have a talent for understatement. - 03/02/2012 01:08:40 PM 920 Views
I agree that they have made Beast Cancer a cult but splitting with PP is just smart - 02/02/2012 05:39:49 PM 1043 Views
I agree. - 02/02/2012 06:00:17 PM 838 Views
yes she is going to have to piss off one group or the other - 02/02/2012 06:12:31 PM 913 Views
Right - 02/02/2012 06:24:14 PM 954 Views
Do you see a way Komen could have avoided pissing off one side? - 02/02/2012 06:55:36 PM 925 Views
No, I don't. I don't believe I said that? - 02/02/2012 07:53:50 PM 827 Views
You didn't; I inferred it from the way you phrased that ("if she HAS to..."). Sorry. - 02/02/2012 08:06:11 PM 902 Views
I know I'm not always clear. - 02/02/2012 08:32:47 PM 912 Views
Just curious... - 02/02/2012 10:07:49 PM 882 Views
Not at all. - 02/02/2012 10:24:19 PM 936 Views
Not at all? - 02/02/2012 10:32:31 PM 855 Views
No. - 02/02/2012 10:47:04 PM 804 Views
My argument is based on my belief that the pro-choice women are more dedicated to women's causes - 02/02/2012 11:17:24 PM 904 Views
Re: My argument is based on my belief that the pro-choice women are more dedicated to women's causes - 03/02/2012 12:08:01 AM 902 Views
wow that may be the worst advice I had in weeks - 03/02/2012 12:13:18 AM 841 Views
Ooor, the best. - 03/02/2012 12:25:56 AM 835 Views
ok now you are just being mean *NM* - 03/02/2012 12:46:12 AM 560 Views
The thread was going too well - I thought we needed the meanness. *NM* - 03/02/2012 11:30:39 AM 509 Views
rabble rouser *NM* - 04/02/2012 04:24:01 AM 522 Views
I misread this at first - 03/02/2012 12:51:44 AM 904 Views
not to mention codeine seems to make me double post - 02/02/2012 11:17:26 PM 1942 Views
I'm not so sure I agree. Or not completely. - 02/02/2012 06:14:11 PM 833 Views
I don't diagree with the way you see it - 02/02/2012 06:39:41 PM 900 Views
More inevitable than anything, considering who started Komen. - 02/02/2012 10:19:34 PM 855 Views
Never having heard of any of those except PP, my opinion may not be the most relevant... - 02/02/2012 08:32:48 PM 978 Views
You don't know stuff. - 02/02/2012 08:43:38 PM 937 Views
I know the stuff that matters. - 02/02/2012 09:55:08 PM 842 Views
That's true. - 02/02/2012 10:34:32 PM 918 Views
they may also be a afraid that PP will go the way of ACORN - 02/02/2012 11:04:16 PM 979 Views
"Accused" of = unfounded slander. - 03/02/2012 12:13:30 AM 999 Views
This is so foreign a debate for me - 02/02/2012 10:16:15 PM 951 Views
Must be nice. *NM* - 03/02/2012 12:26:49 AM 617 Views
Re: stuff - 03/02/2012 09:18:53 AM 860 Views
I'm sorry, but what're we talking about when we're talking about "cancer" - 03/02/2012 12:49:34 PM 872 Views
Obviously not adenocarcinoma, no. - 04/02/2012 07:36:06 AM 899 Views
I"m not that fussed. I'm just generally leary of research that has results like that - 04/02/2012 08:35:04 PM 855 Views
Fair enough. - 04/02/2012 10:17:31 PM 905 Views
They restored funding incidentally - 03/02/2012 05:43:47 PM 826 Views
Unless I've missed it - 03/02/2012 05:56:15 PM 922 Views
You must have missed it then - 03/02/2012 07:07:13 PM 842 Views
If you're referring to Cannoli - 03/02/2012 07:19:25 PM 979 Views
Multiple was not an accidental choice of words - 03/02/2012 11:46:30 PM 867 Views
Then I agree that maybe this is not the thread for you. - 04/02/2012 12:41:42 AM 888 Views
Re: Then I agree that maybe this is not the thread for you. - 04/02/2012 01:53:25 AM 1089 Views
Well, I'll try again for both of us. - 04/02/2012 02:56:42 PM 924 Views
Re: Well, I'll try again for both of us. - 04/02/2012 07:40:25 PM 878 Views
well at least there will not be any doubt about this being a political decision - 03/02/2012 06:24:14 PM 1030 Views
I think that ship sailed long ago. - 03/02/2012 08:45:13 PM 837 Views
Truth - 04/02/2012 02:07:20 AM 936 Views
I do wonder a bit which lawmakers Fox thinks "pressured" Komen. - 03/02/2012 08:29:50 PM 830 Views
are you trying to disprove the study you posted? - 03/02/2012 09:20:12 PM 958 Views
To me, it depends on the nature of the contact, which I have not dug enough to discover. - 03/02/2012 10:43:45 PM 870 Views
you admit you have no incite into what happened - 04/02/2012 04:27:17 AM 873 Views
Actually, it looks like Komens new VP (and former GOP GA gubernatorial candidate) had the incite. - 04/02/2012 04:24:14 PM 927 Views
educated guess don't work when you are tinfoil hat wearing kool-aid drinker - 04/02/2012 09:33:49 PM 822 Views
Dude. - 04/02/2012 11:20:49 PM 778 Views
Yo mama? - 05/02/2012 05:32:11 AM 930 Views
whhhhhhyyyyyy - 04/02/2012 11:23:58 PM 900 Views
Why would I not think that? - 05/02/2012 05:46:15 AM 818 Views

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