Active Users:355 Time:15/05/2024 12:05:32 PM
No, I got the point: You expect me to accept a heavily biased, partisan and combative "source." Joel Send a noteboard - 07/03/2012 01:47:37 AM
Not gonna happen; she has no credentials and plays fast and loose, not to mention self-servingly, with the facts, data and conclusions, so she has no credibility.
I have neither the energy nor the desire to repeat the same pointless conversation over and over again, as you merely restate your tangential remarks with each post.

This is the situation: the "pro-life" movement often makes claims that fetuses have "brain waves" at 8 weeks (or earlier). "Brain wave", as we have both noted, is not a technical term. That means we have to consider what the people making the statement are implying by their specific use of the term in order to judge the statement accurately.

There is the rub; not only do none of the doctors your source cite use the term "brain waves," but virtually all of them are careful NOT to take a specific position on what the various detected first trimester brain activity means. It is misinterpreting (at best) or falsifying (at worst) the facts to claim they state first trimester fetal EEGs indicate living beings; it is no less so to claim they state such EEGs indicate NON-beings. The evidence is inconclusive, and one of the sources referenced in your source as much as says that; that your source then proceeds to attack both not only his conclusions but his credibility demonstrates nothing but her own bias.

The "pro-life" movement has only one motivation to make such a statement: they think that it supports their view that fetuses are people. The relevant question, then, is whether or not fetuses have the same kind of "brain waves," or in general electric activity read by EEG, that people with functioning brains have. A trace of the sources cited for this claim shows no evidence in support of such a similarity, and actually some evidence against it.

When we begin debating whether an EEG at one stage of development is on par with an EEG at another stage we increasingly move from matters of fact to those of opinion. In general, I still tend to credit investigators with doctorates in medicine, law or (in Dr. Goldenrings case) BOTH over a policy advocate with no formal education on the matter who consults (and derides) their research second hand. Particularly when she falsely claims them to take a position they do not just because their conclusions do not support her position. When the medical and legal scholar with decades of practice, study and research says, "inconclusive," but the partisan advocate with none of those things says, "conclusive; he just mistated his data because he is pro-life," it is obvious which is credible.

That is the end of it. A claim was made; the claim, in its intended meaning, is probably false based just on the sources which supposedly supported it. Further, more direct research (such as the paper I originally linked) into fetal brain development shows that the higher brain functions have not developed, making the claim even more obviously false.

The partisan pro-lifer claim first trimester fetuses are beings with the brainwaves of same is currently unverifiable; whether it is false is therefore unknowable. However, the claim, and thus the burden of proving it, is theirs; the evidence is inconclusive, so they have not met that burden and their claim is unsubstantiated. I have no argument there, but any counterclaim faces the same insurmountable challenges.

Your sources problem lies there, because she addresses that issue by attacking the doctors' conclusion their studies ALLOW no conclusion. That does not validate the blank check she wishes written, so it is not enough to refute pro-lifer claims first trimester fetal EEGs demonstrate a being: She seeks to affirm the position those EEGs demonstrate a NON-being, and consequently maligns all doctors who state otherwise. Had she restricted herself to refuting her partisans on the other side I would have no argument; my issue is that her agenda obliged her to falsely malign doctors as well, and that she overreached herself in the process.

If my higher brain functions were destroyed, then my self/personality/mind/etc. would be gone. What remained (body, whatever was left of the lower brain) would not be a person.

That is a large, dubious, contentious and SEPARATE debate (just ask Michael Schiavo and his former in-laws.)
Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.

Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!

LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Reply to message
Susan G. Komen cuts funds to Planned Parenthood. (with updated edit) - 02/02/2012 04:32:27 PM 2132 Views
The most annoying part is in the sixth paragraph- abortions are only a small part of their thing - 02/02/2012 05:08:07 PM 995 Views
I agree. - 02/02/2012 05:20:17 PM 936 Views
I can understand it though. - 02/02/2012 05:45:55 PM 985 Views
I can too, it just isn't for me. - 02/02/2012 05:58:33 PM 907 Views
Actually, there are longer-acting forms of birth control than the pill. - 03/02/2012 12:37:42 AM 915 Views
I do think that preventing abortions is their primary goal. - 03/02/2012 01:08:05 AM 882 Views
If they don't see that link, it's because they haven't looked. - 03/02/2012 02:42:42 AM 953 Views
That is a little unfair. - 03/02/2012 12:48:46 PM 1157 Views
Won't someone please think of the children?! - 04/02/2012 05:03:27 AM 965 Views
I think you're leaving out some important points. - 04/02/2012 03:40:48 PM 907 Views
Ah, the good ol' silent majority. - 04/02/2012 07:32:29 PM 869 Views
So which moron is feeding you this crap? - 04/02/2012 10:27:15 PM 903 Views
A zygote isn't a person, because it doesn't have a brain. - 05/02/2012 12:33:29 AM 904 Views
It worries me when we think alike.... - 05/02/2012 01:22:35 PM 929 Views
Brain waves at 8 weeks are a myth. - 05/02/2012 08:46:06 PM 1041 Views
"brain function... appears to be reliably present in the fetus at about eight weeks' gestation." - 05/02/2012 10:42:35 PM 939 Views
Oh please. - 05/02/2012 11:13:50 PM 908 Views
Re: Oh please yourself. - 06/02/2012 09:15:26 PM 797 Views
Quite a telling reply. - 07/02/2012 04:38:20 AM 854 Views
Re: I quite agree. - 08/02/2012 06:03:23 PM 1036 Views
You're taking an issue of objective facts and treating it like a day of playground gossip. - 09/02/2012 03:47:06 AM 911 Views
No, your source, in which there is very little that is objective, did that for me. - 11/02/2012 02:59:45 AM 935 Views
I see you have continued to provide no factual arguments. - 14/02/2012 04:53:28 AM 1151 Views
I presented factual rebuttals. - 19/02/2012 01:56:45 AM 953 Views
You continue to miss the point. - 23/02/2012 10:22:24 PM 1041 Views
No, I got the point: You expect me to accept a heavily biased, partisan and combative "source." - 07/03/2012 01:47:37 AM 960 Views
Well, yes. - 04/02/2012 11:14:47 PM 965 Views
A silent majority may as well not exist, if it has no tangible effects. - 05/02/2012 12:54:34 AM 909 Views
You ignoring it is not the same thing as it having no tangible effect. - 05/02/2012 02:11:36 AM 1002 Views
Ignoring what? You haven't shown me anything solid. - 05/02/2012 05:25:23 AM 901 Views
It's ok, we're done. *NM* - 05/02/2012 09:29:05 AM 544 Views
Since few people oppose ADULT contraception access, that might be wise in this case. - 04/02/2012 08:25:49 PM 991 Views
Re: Since few people oppose ADULT contraception access, that might be wise in this case. - 05/02/2012 02:11:28 AM 889 Views
If you are arguing most sex ed opponents are naïve/ignorant, I agree. - 05/02/2012 08:42:17 AM 745 Views
Re: If you are arguing most sex ed opponents are naïve/ignorant, I agree. - 05/02/2012 10:04:59 PM 908 Views
Re: If you are arguing most sex ed opponents are naïve/ignorant, I agree. - 06/02/2012 08:57:38 PM 887 Views
I'm done discussing my use of the term "oppression." The Tim Ryan stuff is interesting, though. - 07/02/2012 05:37:05 AM 978 Views
Yet, regrettably, not done misusing it. - 08/02/2012 06:01:32 PM 1059 Views
Re: Yet, regrettably, not done misusing it. - 09/02/2012 05:30:58 AM 943 Views
Re: Yet, regrettably, not done misusing it. - 11/02/2012 02:58:00 AM 974 Views
Re: Yet, regrettably, not done misusing it. - 14/02/2012 04:29:08 AM 1029 Views
Re: Yet, regrettably, not done misusing it. - 19/02/2012 01:54:30 AM 961 Views
Re: Yet, regrettably, not done misusing it. - 23/02/2012 10:59:32 PM 1243 Views
Re: Yet, regrettably, not done misusing it. - 07/03/2012 01:47:44 AM 900 Views
Re: Yet, regrettably, not done misusing it. - 15/03/2012 10:27:23 PM 1159 Views
There are problems with the implants - 03/02/2012 01:42:55 AM 933 Views
You have a talent for understatement. - 03/02/2012 01:08:40 PM 920 Views
I agree that they have made Beast Cancer a cult but splitting with PP is just smart - 02/02/2012 05:39:49 PM 1041 Views
I agree. - 02/02/2012 06:00:17 PM 838 Views
yes she is going to have to piss off one group or the other - 02/02/2012 06:12:31 PM 913 Views
Right - 02/02/2012 06:24:14 PM 954 Views
Do you see a way Komen could have avoided pissing off one side? - 02/02/2012 06:55:36 PM 924 Views
No, I don't. I don't believe I said that? - 02/02/2012 07:53:50 PM 827 Views
You didn't; I inferred it from the way you phrased that ("if she HAS to..."). Sorry. - 02/02/2012 08:06:11 PM 901 Views
I know I'm not always clear. - 02/02/2012 08:32:47 PM 912 Views
Just curious... - 02/02/2012 10:07:49 PM 881 Views
Not at all. - 02/02/2012 10:24:19 PM 936 Views
Not at all? - 02/02/2012 10:32:31 PM 854 Views
No. - 02/02/2012 10:47:04 PM 804 Views
My argument is based on my belief that the pro-choice women are more dedicated to women's causes - 02/02/2012 11:17:24 PM 904 Views
Re: My argument is based on my belief that the pro-choice women are more dedicated to women's causes - 03/02/2012 12:08:01 AM 901 Views
wow that may be the worst advice I had in weeks - 03/02/2012 12:13:18 AM 841 Views
Ooor, the best. - 03/02/2012 12:25:56 AM 835 Views
ok now you are just being mean *NM* - 03/02/2012 12:46:12 AM 560 Views
The thread was going too well - I thought we needed the meanness. *NM* - 03/02/2012 11:30:39 AM 509 Views
rabble rouser *NM* - 04/02/2012 04:24:01 AM 522 Views
I misread this at first - 03/02/2012 12:51:44 AM 904 Views
not to mention codeine seems to make me double post - 02/02/2012 11:17:26 PM 1942 Views
I'm not so sure I agree. Or not completely. - 02/02/2012 06:14:11 PM 833 Views
I don't diagree with the way you see it - 02/02/2012 06:39:41 PM 900 Views
More inevitable than anything, considering who started Komen. - 02/02/2012 10:19:34 PM 855 Views
Never having heard of any of those except PP, my opinion may not be the most relevant... - 02/02/2012 08:32:48 PM 978 Views
You don't know stuff. - 02/02/2012 08:43:38 PM 937 Views
I know the stuff that matters. - 02/02/2012 09:55:08 PM 841 Views
That's true. - 02/02/2012 10:34:32 PM 917 Views
they may also be a afraid that PP will go the way of ACORN - 02/02/2012 11:04:16 PM 979 Views
"Accused" of = unfounded slander. - 03/02/2012 12:13:30 AM 999 Views
This is so foreign a debate for me - 02/02/2012 10:16:15 PM 951 Views
Must be nice. *NM* - 03/02/2012 12:26:49 AM 616 Views
Re: stuff - 03/02/2012 09:18:53 AM 860 Views
I'm sorry, but what're we talking about when we're talking about "cancer" - 03/02/2012 12:49:34 PM 872 Views
Obviously not adenocarcinoma, no. - 04/02/2012 07:36:06 AM 899 Views
I"m not that fussed. I'm just generally leary of research that has results like that - 04/02/2012 08:35:04 PM 855 Views
Fair enough. - 04/02/2012 10:17:31 PM 904 Views
They restored funding incidentally - 03/02/2012 05:43:47 PM 825 Views
Unless I've missed it - 03/02/2012 05:56:15 PM 922 Views
You must have missed it then - 03/02/2012 07:07:13 PM 841 Views
If you're referring to Cannoli - 03/02/2012 07:19:25 PM 979 Views
Multiple was not an accidental choice of words - 03/02/2012 11:46:30 PM 866 Views
Then I agree that maybe this is not the thread for you. - 04/02/2012 12:41:42 AM 888 Views
Re: Then I agree that maybe this is not the thread for you. - 04/02/2012 01:53:25 AM 1088 Views
Well, I'll try again for both of us. - 04/02/2012 02:56:42 PM 924 Views
Re: Well, I'll try again for both of us. - 04/02/2012 07:40:25 PM 878 Views
well at least there will not be any doubt about this being a political decision - 03/02/2012 06:24:14 PM 1029 Views
I think that ship sailed long ago. - 03/02/2012 08:45:13 PM 836 Views
Truth - 04/02/2012 02:07:20 AM 936 Views
I do wonder a bit which lawmakers Fox thinks "pressured" Komen. - 03/02/2012 08:29:50 PM 830 Views
are you trying to disprove the study you posted? - 03/02/2012 09:20:12 PM 958 Views
To me, it depends on the nature of the contact, which I have not dug enough to discover. - 03/02/2012 10:43:45 PM 870 Views
you admit you have no incite into what happened - 04/02/2012 04:27:17 AM 873 Views
Actually, it looks like Komens new VP (and former GOP GA gubernatorial candidate) had the incite. - 04/02/2012 04:24:14 PM 926 Views
educated guess don't work when you are tinfoil hat wearing kool-aid drinker - 04/02/2012 09:33:49 PM 822 Views
Dude. - 04/02/2012 11:20:49 PM 778 Views
Yo mama? - 05/02/2012 05:32:11 AM 930 Views
whhhhhhyyyyyy - 04/02/2012 11:23:58 PM 900 Views
Why would I not think that? - 05/02/2012 05:46:15 AM 817 Views

Reply to Message