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Re: Yet, regrettably, not done misusing it. Dreaded Anomaly Send a noteboard - 14/02/2012 04:29:08 AM
Common sense is just basic reason, and quite useful, ESPECIALLY for human behavior. It has limitations (e.g. complex dynamics, particularly with counterintuitive outcomes) but serves well if we recognize those limitations. Recognizing limitations of not just our knowledge but means of acquiring it is also useful. At the risk of a tangent, I cannot help wishing schools spent more time on division by zero so people do not forget it exists, or expect to define it "someday, when we know more."

In this case, we have conflicting data: One study of a large but incomplete group shows a positive correlation between contraception use and sexual activity, but another study of a large partially overlapping group shows a negative correlation. Absent additional studies, preferably of ALL people rather than just those with low incomes or in their teens, firm conclusions FROM DATA are impossible. However, FROM LOGIC, we can indisputably say increased contraception use in no way deters sex, which most people enjoy (though I do not have any data handy to support that "proposition.") Thus contraception can ONLY encourage sexual activity.

While increased contraception use significantly reduces the risk of pregnancy, and therefore a deterrent to sexual activity, I have not seen even a speculative suggestion of why it would encourage sexual activity, so it is hard to see how it could cause the reduced sexual activity in the study you cited. The most logical explanation is probably that promoting abstinence and other things styled as "oppression" actually HAVE increased teen abstinence, though increased awareness that contraception is imperfect may have been a factor also. That should not obscure the fact promoting abstinence remains an inadequate solution to teen pregnancy, because many teens will disregard it, and thus the proper use of birth control, along with its risks and limitations, should be taught in school health classes.


Since you have brought up mathematical analogies, the situation we have is: (effect of contraception on rates of sex ) ≥ 0. You are selecting only the "greater than" and ignoring the "or equal to."

Logic suggests that it might encourage sex, but absent hard evidence, that is only a suggestion, not a conclusion. Applying straight logic to human behavior, without strong grounding in evidence of one's initial assumptions, is tricky at the best of times.

I suspect it depends on how one defines "miscarriage." Since preventing uterine implantation of fertilized eggs is a primary goal of IUDs, they SHOULD raise rates of "spontaneous abortion" as defined by those who believe life begins at conception: That is the POINT. If they do not, they are just uncomfortable placebos. What is critical is that is one small part of a "life begins at conception" article premised on promoting effective contraception. It is proof of pro-contraception members of even the strictest pro life factions, which makes categorically dismissing all pro lifers as anti-contraception unfair and inaccurate.


Actually, the primary mode of action for IUDs is preventing sperm from reaching the egg. Preventing fertilized eggs from implanting is a secondary effect.

I have never categorically dismissed all "pro-lifers" as anti-contraception. I have always been talking about the movement, and the only significant counterexample that has been offered is Tim Ryan. I certainly appreciate knowing about him and his efforts, but his own story shows exactly what I was saying about the movement, i.e. those people and organizations which dedicate time and money to the issue.

Ryans legislation earned many pro life critics; they do not necessarily represent "the movement at large." It is VERY "large," with widely disparate views, the point I (and nossy) have tried to convey. Just a couple days ago I saw a story about a pro life group assailed by far right pro lifers for promoting the anti-mercury campaign as "pro life." It basically went as one would expect; some critical pro life groups even took a moment to explicitly deny global warming along the way. Part of the problem is the sheer size of the pro life movement that not only creates great diversity, but attracts demagogues who care no more about fetuses than about babies, far less than they care about a way to rally millions to their far right agenda. This covers that well: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1PUFNZgWD0


Exactly; the movement does not really care about fetuses or babies, but instead focuses on pushing other agendas under that guise. That is the point I have been making. I don't generally take the time while making that point to add "except for some small, ineffective faction" because, well, that faction is small and ineffective.

Separate, but related. You led off mentioning the contention abortion is murder and the following sentence noted murder has moral precedence over birth control. Miscarriage was only referenced as a medical rather than legal concern ONCE, auxillary to the initial argument and preliminary reinforcing it by pointing out the rarity of "legislator[s]... trying to criminalize miscarriages." That was the second (and only other) mention of miscarriages, and even that was in the context of law, not medicine. So, yeah, if three of five sentences in a paragraph that begins and ends discussing law are also about law, and only one of the remaining two is about medicine, I am unlikely to conclude the paragraph is about a medical epidemic. Do I really need to explain how paragraphs work? I take it you remain unconvinced self-righteous condescension will not persuade pro lifers to alter their position. :P From what I can tell, you, I and nossy are in basic agreement on the legal and policy issues, but the reaction from pro choice people like us suggests your advocacy could use improvement. ;)


I referred to legislators trying to criminalize miscarriages as to say "even on the rare occasions when the 'pro-life' movement considers miscarriage, they generally screw that up, too."

My intent is not to persuade "pro-lifers" to alter their positions, because I am not Sisyphus. People outside of the movement need to realize its illegitimacy and lack of relevant effort toward its stated cause, so that the national conversation can stop according it any measure of political respect.
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Susan G. Komen cuts funds to Planned Parenthood. (with updated edit) - 02/02/2012 04:32:27 PM 2127 Views
The most annoying part is in the sixth paragraph- abortions are only a small part of their thing - 02/02/2012 05:08:07 PM 991 Views
I agree. - 02/02/2012 05:20:17 PM 931 Views
I can understand it though. - 02/02/2012 05:45:55 PM 979 Views
I can too, it just isn't for me. - 02/02/2012 05:58:33 PM 901 Views
Actually, there are longer-acting forms of birth control than the pill. - 03/02/2012 12:37:42 AM 908 Views
I do think that preventing abortions is their primary goal. - 03/02/2012 01:08:05 AM 876 Views
If they don't see that link, it's because they haven't looked. - 03/02/2012 02:42:42 AM 946 Views
That is a little unfair. - 03/02/2012 12:48:46 PM 1153 Views
Won't someone please think of the children?! - 04/02/2012 05:03:27 AM 960 Views
I think you're leaving out some important points. - 04/02/2012 03:40:48 PM 901 Views
Ah, the good ol' silent majority. - 04/02/2012 07:32:29 PM 862 Views
So which moron is feeding you this crap? - 04/02/2012 10:27:15 PM 899 Views
A zygote isn't a person, because it doesn't have a brain. - 05/02/2012 12:33:29 AM 899 Views
It worries me when we think alike.... - 05/02/2012 01:22:35 PM 925 Views
Brain waves at 8 weeks are a myth. - 05/02/2012 08:46:06 PM 1034 Views
"brain function... appears to be reliably present in the fetus at about eight weeks' gestation." - 05/02/2012 10:42:35 PM 934 Views
Oh please. - 05/02/2012 11:13:50 PM 902 Views
Re: Oh please yourself. - 06/02/2012 09:15:26 PM 792 Views
Quite a telling reply. - 07/02/2012 04:38:20 AM 850 Views
Re: I quite agree. - 08/02/2012 06:03:23 PM 1016 Views
You're taking an issue of objective facts and treating it like a day of playground gossip. - 09/02/2012 03:47:06 AM 906 Views
No, your source, in which there is very little that is objective, did that for me. - 11/02/2012 02:59:45 AM 930 Views
I see you have continued to provide no factual arguments. - 14/02/2012 04:53:28 AM 1144 Views
I presented factual rebuttals. - 19/02/2012 01:56:45 AM 947 Views
You continue to miss the point. - 23/02/2012 10:22:24 PM 1036 Views
Well, yes. - 04/02/2012 11:14:47 PM 960 Views
A silent majority may as well not exist, if it has no tangible effects. - 05/02/2012 12:54:34 AM 902 Views
You ignoring it is not the same thing as it having no tangible effect. - 05/02/2012 02:11:36 AM 997 Views
Ignoring what? You haven't shown me anything solid. - 05/02/2012 05:25:23 AM 896 Views
It's ok, we're done. *NM* - 05/02/2012 09:29:05 AM 540 Views
Since few people oppose ADULT contraception access, that might be wise in this case. - 04/02/2012 08:25:49 PM 986 Views
Re: Since few people oppose ADULT contraception access, that might be wise in this case. - 05/02/2012 02:11:28 AM 884 Views
If you are arguing most sex ed opponents are naïve/ignorant, I agree. - 05/02/2012 08:42:17 AM 739 Views
Re: If you are arguing most sex ed opponents are naïve/ignorant, I agree. - 05/02/2012 10:04:59 PM 902 Views
Re: If you are arguing most sex ed opponents are naïve/ignorant, I agree. - 06/02/2012 08:57:38 PM 879 Views
I'm done discussing my use of the term "oppression." The Tim Ryan stuff is interesting, though. - 07/02/2012 05:37:05 AM 974 Views
Yet, regrettably, not done misusing it. - 08/02/2012 06:01:32 PM 1055 Views
Re: Yet, regrettably, not done misusing it. - 09/02/2012 05:30:58 AM 938 Views
Re: Yet, regrettably, not done misusing it. - 11/02/2012 02:58:00 AM 972 Views
Re: Yet, regrettably, not done misusing it. - 14/02/2012 04:29:08 AM 1024 Views
Re: Yet, regrettably, not done misusing it. - 19/02/2012 01:54:30 AM 956 Views
Re: Yet, regrettably, not done misusing it. - 23/02/2012 10:59:32 PM 1237 Views
Re: Yet, regrettably, not done misusing it. - 07/03/2012 01:47:44 AM 892 Views
Re: Yet, regrettably, not done misusing it. - 15/03/2012 10:27:23 PM 1154 Views
There are problems with the implants - 03/02/2012 01:42:55 AM 927 Views
You have a talent for understatement. - 03/02/2012 01:08:40 PM 915 Views
I agree that they have made Beast Cancer a cult but splitting with PP is just smart - 02/02/2012 05:39:49 PM 1035 Views
I agree. - 02/02/2012 06:00:17 PM 832 Views
yes she is going to have to piss off one group or the other - 02/02/2012 06:12:31 PM 908 Views
Right - 02/02/2012 06:24:14 PM 947 Views
Do you see a way Komen could have avoided pissing off one side? - 02/02/2012 06:55:36 PM 919 Views
No, I don't. I don't believe I said that? - 02/02/2012 07:53:50 PM 822 Views
You didn't; I inferred it from the way you phrased that ("if she HAS to..."). Sorry. - 02/02/2012 08:06:11 PM 896 Views
I know I'm not always clear. - 02/02/2012 08:32:47 PM 906 Views
Just curious... - 02/02/2012 10:07:49 PM 875 Views
Not at all. - 02/02/2012 10:24:19 PM 930 Views
Not at all? - 02/02/2012 10:32:31 PM 849 Views
No. - 02/02/2012 10:47:04 PM 799 Views
My argument is based on my belief that the pro-choice women are more dedicated to women's causes - 02/02/2012 11:17:24 PM 898 Views
Re: My argument is based on my belief that the pro-choice women are more dedicated to women's causes - 03/02/2012 12:08:01 AM 896 Views
wow that may be the worst advice I had in weeks - 03/02/2012 12:13:18 AM 836 Views
Ooor, the best. - 03/02/2012 12:25:56 AM 829 Views
ok now you are just being mean *NM* - 03/02/2012 12:46:12 AM 556 Views
The thread was going too well - I thought we needed the meanness. *NM* - 03/02/2012 11:30:39 AM 505 Views
rabble rouser *NM* - 04/02/2012 04:24:01 AM 519 Views
I misread this at first - 03/02/2012 12:51:44 AM 898 Views
not to mention codeine seems to make me double post - 02/02/2012 11:17:26 PM 1938 Views
I'm not so sure I agree. Or not completely. - 02/02/2012 06:14:11 PM 826 Views
I don't diagree with the way you see it - 02/02/2012 06:39:41 PM 894 Views
More inevitable than anything, considering who started Komen. - 02/02/2012 10:19:34 PM 849 Views
Never having heard of any of those except PP, my opinion may not be the most relevant... - 02/02/2012 08:32:48 PM 972 Views
You don't know stuff. - 02/02/2012 08:43:38 PM 931 Views
I know the stuff that matters. - 02/02/2012 09:55:08 PM 835 Views
That's true. - 02/02/2012 10:34:32 PM 911 Views
they may also be a afraid that PP will go the way of ACORN - 02/02/2012 11:04:16 PM 973 Views
"Accused" of = unfounded slander. - 03/02/2012 12:13:30 AM 990 Views
This is so foreign a debate for me - 02/02/2012 10:16:15 PM 946 Views
Must be nice. *NM* - 03/02/2012 12:26:49 AM 614 Views
Re: stuff - 03/02/2012 09:18:53 AM 854 Views
I'm sorry, but what're we talking about when we're talking about "cancer" - 03/02/2012 12:49:34 PM 866 Views
Obviously not adenocarcinoma, no. - 04/02/2012 07:36:06 AM 896 Views
I"m not that fussed. I'm just generally leary of research that has results like that - 04/02/2012 08:35:04 PM 850 Views
Fair enough. - 04/02/2012 10:17:31 PM 900 Views
They restored funding incidentally - 03/02/2012 05:43:47 PM 820 Views
Unless I've missed it - 03/02/2012 05:56:15 PM 916 Views
You must have missed it then - 03/02/2012 07:07:13 PM 835 Views
If you're referring to Cannoli - 03/02/2012 07:19:25 PM 974 Views
Multiple was not an accidental choice of words - 03/02/2012 11:46:30 PM 860 Views
Then I agree that maybe this is not the thread for you. - 04/02/2012 12:41:42 AM 883 Views
Re: Then I agree that maybe this is not the thread for you. - 04/02/2012 01:53:25 AM 1083 Views
Well, I'll try again for both of us. - 04/02/2012 02:56:42 PM 918 Views
Re: Well, I'll try again for both of us. - 04/02/2012 07:40:25 PM 873 Views
well at least there will not be any doubt about this being a political decision - 03/02/2012 06:24:14 PM 1024 Views
I think that ship sailed long ago. - 03/02/2012 08:45:13 PM 832 Views
Truth - 04/02/2012 02:07:20 AM 930 Views
I do wonder a bit which lawmakers Fox thinks "pressured" Komen. - 03/02/2012 08:29:50 PM 824 Views
are you trying to disprove the study you posted? - 03/02/2012 09:20:12 PM 951 Views
To me, it depends on the nature of the contact, which I have not dug enough to discover. - 03/02/2012 10:43:45 PM 865 Views
you admit you have no incite into what happened - 04/02/2012 04:27:17 AM 866 Views
Actually, it looks like Komens new VP (and former GOP GA gubernatorial candidate) had the incite. - 04/02/2012 04:24:14 PM 921 Views
educated guess don't work when you are tinfoil hat wearing kool-aid drinker - 04/02/2012 09:33:49 PM 815 Views
Dude. - 04/02/2012 11:20:49 PM 772 Views
Yo mama? - 05/02/2012 05:32:11 AM 925 Views
whhhhhhyyyyyy - 04/02/2012 11:23:58 PM 894 Views
Why would I not think that? - 05/02/2012 05:46:15 AM 813 Views

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