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I see you have continued to provide no factual arguments. Dreaded Anomaly Send a noteboard - 14/02/2012 04:53:28 AM
Precisely the problem: Her goal is portraying opponents as ignorant and/or dishonest, rather than simply advocating her own position. Toward that end she alleges (at least) ignorance in a half dozen people whose entire professional careers consisted of studying and practicing medicine. She then proceeds to "take them to school," laughably presuming she checked their sources better than they. Hence the charges of "unoriginal research," based on no more than her assumption doctors addressing other doctors at medical conferences did not bother checking the sources of the sources they cited, simply because they did not explicitly sub-cite them.


If she was just presuming it, she wouldn't have bothered to go look up those sources and see what they actually said. The practice of citing a source without reading it thoroughly (or at all, if one grabs the citation from someone else) is unfortunately not uncommon.

If a leading engineer addressed an engineering conference on the subject of nuclear power, only citing a study on electrical generators without bothering to trace it all the way back to the well known Faraday experiments, would that be "unoriginal research"? Is it not a BIT presumptuous for a layman to question a professional citation of a statement on the grounds that statement itself cites one of the fields TEXTBOOKS and thus the writer and audience have not read it?


Faraday's experiments are fairly easy to repeat. Thorough examinations of early-term fetuses are not so easy.

Textbooks can be wrong, too. You are really heavily leaning on the argument from authority right now.

I dispute her conclusions because, rather than just attacking partisan misuse of those letters and speeches, she extends her attacks to the speeches and letters themselves, impugning (at least) their authors knowledge of their field and its studies along with the misuse others make of their work. I further dismiss her own partisan misuse of those maligned speeches and letters as no better than the examples she attacks. Most of all, I dispute her strong implication research shows brainwaves begin "well into the second half of pregnancy" on the same grounds she disputes that research shows they begin in the first trimester: Because the evidence is inconclusive (which I noted in my first post on the subject.)

Had she set out to argue brainwaves cannot be proven to exist in fetuses before "well into the second half of pregnancy" she would have been on firm ground. She could even cite Dr. Hellegers statement that "at the end of eight weeks there will be readable electrical activity coming from the brain.9 The meaning of the activity cannot be interpreted" as support, rather than dismiss it by insisting "It can be interpreted." Saying an OBGYN professor has more credibility on fetal monitoring than an online advice columnist does is not an ad hominem; that is an indictment of her education and experience, not her personally. Given her vitriolic and biased approach throughout, and that her specific About.com experience is "About Pro Choice Views," I also question her objectivity. If you want to see what an ACTUAL ad honinem looks like, try this statement from your source:

"As is typical of "pro-life" writings and websites, however, it's doubtful whether "Jack Dean" or anyone else has actually read Hamlin's speech, which makes citing it dishonest."

It is not an ad hominem to point out she lacks the medical knowledge and experience of those whose medical statements she disputes, or that her open bias undermines her objectivity. It IS an ad hominem to declare someone "dishonest" solely because of an ASSUMPTION they did not do their homework in turn resting solely on her belief that is "typical" of her policy opponents. Granted, it is hard to prove a negative (that Dean did not do his research,) but no one forced her to try.

That, and the naked bias motivating it, is the whole problem with her hit piece: She seeks, not to prove brainwaves and the physical structures necessary for them have only been found "well into the second half of pregnancy," but that they are ABSENT at all prior points. Had she been forced to prove that negative her efforts would be pitiable; since she CHOSE to attempt it they are simply lamentable.


Measurements of the electrical activity in the brain in the first half of pregnancy do not show the kind of activity that a developed brain does. Only the latter has actual "brain waves," which, while being a non-technical term as she admits, is still pretty well defined. If it doesn't quack like a duck, it's unlikely to be a duck. Absence of evidence does, in fact, provide some evidence of absence.

The research evidence, as Dr. Helleger noted of one example, "cannot be interpreted." That does not support pro life claims of early fetal brainwaves, but also does not refute them as Sykes insists. Had she been content with "inconclusive" her claims would be valid (her tone would still be horrid, but civility and veracity are distinct.) Yet that would not give her moral ascendancy, prove allegations pro lifers are ignorant and/or dishonest. So she attacked the credibility of doctors as well as pro lifers, to serve her unabashed bias, on no better basis than her assumption she (but not they) read all the medical research they directly and otherwise referenced.

When an OBGYN professor says data "cannot be interpreted" and an online advice writer with no medical degree says it can, I will defer to the doctor(s) whose opinion is based on decades of medical study, practice and research rather than an overt political agenda. It is not an ad hominem to say she lacks their knowledge, experience and objectivity; it is a simple statement of fact. Sykes concedes in her second paragraph that "brainwaves" "is a nontechnical term" for very complex phenomena, and disparages its use throughout her article. She nonetheless insists research shows them present, indeed, POSSIBLE, ONLY at some unspecified "nontechnical" point "well into the second half of pregnancy." That is a bridge very much too far, but she attempts it anyway, even to the point of assailing a host of doctors whose claim to "expertise" rests on university degrees and decades of practice and research rather than an autobiographical web profile.


If someone makes a statement that they claim is supported by evidence, and they are incorrect (knowingly or otherwise), the statement can no longer be considered valid. The person(s) making such a claim must indeed be either ignorant or dishonest in that area. They don't get to keep the statement around afterward and say it might be true, but the evidence is "inconclusive"; this is called privileging the hypothesis. It must fade back into the infinite space of all other "inconclusive" statements; without evidence, there is no legitimate reason to continue to bring it to attention.

Again, you resort to arguments from authority instead of actually arguing the issue. Degrees and experience make it more likely that a person's claims in their area of expertise will be true, but that cannot override actual, empirical evidence. You have utterly failed to discuss the issue on its merits, despite how plainly it was presented.

She DOES do a great job illustrating why "brainwaves" is a nontechnical term. Whether the various examples of different kinds of electrical brain activity well within the first trimester, or others in the second, indicate a person is a legitimate debate. The problem is she treats it as settled, and attacks claims to the contrary, even those by leading doctors, dismissing even those supported by MEDICAL TEXTBOOKS on the assumption doctors have not read them. Is it not absurd for someone with no medical degree to assume more familiarity with medical textbooks than those who DO have the degrees REQUIRING that knowledge?

Objectively discussing an objective interpretation of medical data requires such an interpretation to discuss. An interpretation heavily biased to "refute" one with an equal but opposite bias does NOT qualify. An interpretation from an About Pro Choice Views writer with no medical degree, who nonetheless disputes the medical opinions of not only lay partisans on the other side, but doctors who take no position on abortion, is less than uncredible.

We return whence we came, and had I intended to debate what meets the "nontechnical" definition of brainwaves I would not have said at the start opinions vary.


It's really not much of a debate. The parts of our brains which give us self-awareness and other factors essential for personhood are not formed in early-term fetuses. Other research, beyond what Sykes cites, shows this.

Unless you have any actual objections to make to the interpretation itself, rather than the person who made it, there is nothing further to discuss here.
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Susan G. Komen cuts funds to Planned Parenthood. (with updated edit) - 02/02/2012 04:32:27 PM 2127 Views
The most annoying part is in the sixth paragraph- abortions are only a small part of their thing - 02/02/2012 05:08:07 PM 991 Views
I agree. - 02/02/2012 05:20:17 PM 931 Views
I can understand it though. - 02/02/2012 05:45:55 PM 979 Views
I can too, it just isn't for me. - 02/02/2012 05:58:33 PM 901 Views
Actually, there are longer-acting forms of birth control than the pill. - 03/02/2012 12:37:42 AM 908 Views
I do think that preventing abortions is their primary goal. - 03/02/2012 01:08:05 AM 876 Views
If they don't see that link, it's because they haven't looked. - 03/02/2012 02:42:42 AM 946 Views
That is a little unfair. - 03/02/2012 12:48:46 PM 1153 Views
Won't someone please think of the children?! - 04/02/2012 05:03:27 AM 960 Views
I think you're leaving out some important points. - 04/02/2012 03:40:48 PM 901 Views
Ah, the good ol' silent majority. - 04/02/2012 07:32:29 PM 863 Views
So which moron is feeding you this crap? - 04/02/2012 10:27:15 PM 899 Views
A zygote isn't a person, because it doesn't have a brain. - 05/02/2012 12:33:29 AM 899 Views
It worries me when we think alike.... - 05/02/2012 01:22:35 PM 925 Views
Brain waves at 8 weeks are a myth. - 05/02/2012 08:46:06 PM 1034 Views
"brain function... appears to be reliably present in the fetus at about eight weeks' gestation." - 05/02/2012 10:42:35 PM 934 Views
Oh please. - 05/02/2012 11:13:50 PM 902 Views
Re: Oh please yourself. - 06/02/2012 09:15:26 PM 792 Views
Quite a telling reply. - 07/02/2012 04:38:20 AM 850 Views
Re: I quite agree. - 08/02/2012 06:03:23 PM 1018 Views
You're taking an issue of objective facts and treating it like a day of playground gossip. - 09/02/2012 03:47:06 AM 906 Views
No, your source, in which there is very little that is objective, did that for me. - 11/02/2012 02:59:45 AM 930 Views
I see you have continued to provide no factual arguments. - 14/02/2012 04:53:28 AM 1145 Views
I presented factual rebuttals. - 19/02/2012 01:56:45 AM 947 Views
You continue to miss the point. - 23/02/2012 10:22:24 PM 1036 Views
Well, yes. - 04/02/2012 11:14:47 PM 960 Views
A silent majority may as well not exist, if it has no tangible effects. - 05/02/2012 12:54:34 AM 902 Views
You ignoring it is not the same thing as it having no tangible effect. - 05/02/2012 02:11:36 AM 997 Views
Ignoring what? You haven't shown me anything solid. - 05/02/2012 05:25:23 AM 896 Views
It's ok, we're done. *NM* - 05/02/2012 09:29:05 AM 540 Views
Since few people oppose ADULT contraception access, that might be wise in this case. - 04/02/2012 08:25:49 PM 986 Views
Re: Since few people oppose ADULT contraception access, that might be wise in this case. - 05/02/2012 02:11:28 AM 884 Views
If you are arguing most sex ed opponents are naïve/ignorant, I agree. - 05/02/2012 08:42:17 AM 739 Views
Re: If you are arguing most sex ed opponents are naïve/ignorant, I agree. - 05/02/2012 10:04:59 PM 902 Views
Re: If you are arguing most sex ed opponents are naïve/ignorant, I agree. - 06/02/2012 08:57:38 PM 879 Views
I'm done discussing my use of the term "oppression." The Tim Ryan stuff is interesting, though. - 07/02/2012 05:37:05 AM 974 Views
Yet, regrettably, not done misusing it. - 08/02/2012 06:01:32 PM 1055 Views
Re: Yet, regrettably, not done misusing it. - 09/02/2012 05:30:58 AM 938 Views
Re: Yet, regrettably, not done misusing it. - 11/02/2012 02:58:00 AM 972 Views
Re: Yet, regrettably, not done misusing it. - 14/02/2012 04:29:08 AM 1024 Views
Re: Yet, regrettably, not done misusing it. - 19/02/2012 01:54:30 AM 956 Views
Re: Yet, regrettably, not done misusing it. - 23/02/2012 10:59:32 PM 1238 Views
Re: Yet, regrettably, not done misusing it. - 07/03/2012 01:47:44 AM 892 Views
Re: Yet, regrettably, not done misusing it. - 15/03/2012 10:27:23 PM 1154 Views
There are problems with the implants - 03/02/2012 01:42:55 AM 927 Views
You have a talent for understatement. - 03/02/2012 01:08:40 PM 915 Views
I agree that they have made Beast Cancer a cult but splitting with PP is just smart - 02/02/2012 05:39:49 PM 1035 Views
I agree. - 02/02/2012 06:00:17 PM 832 Views
yes she is going to have to piss off one group or the other - 02/02/2012 06:12:31 PM 908 Views
Right - 02/02/2012 06:24:14 PM 947 Views
Do you see a way Komen could have avoided pissing off one side? - 02/02/2012 06:55:36 PM 919 Views
No, I don't. I don't believe I said that? - 02/02/2012 07:53:50 PM 822 Views
You didn't; I inferred it from the way you phrased that ("if she HAS to..."). Sorry. - 02/02/2012 08:06:11 PM 896 Views
I know I'm not always clear. - 02/02/2012 08:32:47 PM 906 Views
Just curious... - 02/02/2012 10:07:49 PM 875 Views
Not at all. - 02/02/2012 10:24:19 PM 930 Views
Not at all? - 02/02/2012 10:32:31 PM 849 Views
No. - 02/02/2012 10:47:04 PM 799 Views
My argument is based on my belief that the pro-choice women are more dedicated to women's causes - 02/02/2012 11:17:24 PM 898 Views
Re: My argument is based on my belief that the pro-choice women are more dedicated to women's causes - 03/02/2012 12:08:01 AM 896 Views
wow that may be the worst advice I had in weeks - 03/02/2012 12:13:18 AM 836 Views
Ooor, the best. - 03/02/2012 12:25:56 AM 829 Views
ok now you are just being mean *NM* - 03/02/2012 12:46:12 AM 556 Views
The thread was going too well - I thought we needed the meanness. *NM* - 03/02/2012 11:30:39 AM 505 Views
rabble rouser *NM* - 04/02/2012 04:24:01 AM 519 Views
I misread this at first - 03/02/2012 12:51:44 AM 898 Views
not to mention codeine seems to make me double post - 02/02/2012 11:17:26 PM 1938 Views
I'm not so sure I agree. Or not completely. - 02/02/2012 06:14:11 PM 826 Views
I don't diagree with the way you see it - 02/02/2012 06:39:41 PM 894 Views
More inevitable than anything, considering who started Komen. - 02/02/2012 10:19:34 PM 849 Views
Never having heard of any of those except PP, my opinion may not be the most relevant... - 02/02/2012 08:32:48 PM 972 Views
You don't know stuff. - 02/02/2012 08:43:38 PM 931 Views
I know the stuff that matters. - 02/02/2012 09:55:08 PM 835 Views
That's true. - 02/02/2012 10:34:32 PM 911 Views
they may also be a afraid that PP will go the way of ACORN - 02/02/2012 11:04:16 PM 973 Views
"Accused" of = unfounded slander. - 03/02/2012 12:13:30 AM 990 Views
This is so foreign a debate for me - 02/02/2012 10:16:15 PM 946 Views
Must be nice. *NM* - 03/02/2012 12:26:49 AM 614 Views
Re: stuff - 03/02/2012 09:18:53 AM 854 Views
I'm sorry, but what're we talking about when we're talking about "cancer" - 03/02/2012 12:49:34 PM 866 Views
Obviously not adenocarcinoma, no. - 04/02/2012 07:36:06 AM 896 Views
I"m not that fussed. I'm just generally leary of research that has results like that - 04/02/2012 08:35:04 PM 850 Views
Fair enough. - 04/02/2012 10:17:31 PM 900 Views
They restored funding incidentally - 03/02/2012 05:43:47 PM 820 Views
Unless I've missed it - 03/02/2012 05:56:15 PM 916 Views
You must have missed it then - 03/02/2012 07:07:13 PM 835 Views
If you're referring to Cannoli - 03/02/2012 07:19:25 PM 974 Views
Multiple was not an accidental choice of words - 03/02/2012 11:46:30 PM 860 Views
Then I agree that maybe this is not the thread for you. - 04/02/2012 12:41:42 AM 883 Views
Re: Then I agree that maybe this is not the thread for you. - 04/02/2012 01:53:25 AM 1083 Views
Well, I'll try again for both of us. - 04/02/2012 02:56:42 PM 918 Views
Re: Well, I'll try again for both of us. - 04/02/2012 07:40:25 PM 873 Views
well at least there will not be any doubt about this being a political decision - 03/02/2012 06:24:14 PM 1024 Views
I think that ship sailed long ago. - 03/02/2012 08:45:13 PM 832 Views
Truth - 04/02/2012 02:07:20 AM 930 Views
I do wonder a bit which lawmakers Fox thinks "pressured" Komen. - 03/02/2012 08:29:50 PM 824 Views
are you trying to disprove the study you posted? - 03/02/2012 09:20:12 PM 951 Views
To me, it depends on the nature of the contact, which I have not dug enough to discover. - 03/02/2012 10:43:45 PM 865 Views
you admit you have no incite into what happened - 04/02/2012 04:27:17 AM 866 Views
Actually, it looks like Komens new VP (and former GOP GA gubernatorial candidate) had the incite. - 04/02/2012 04:24:14 PM 921 Views
educated guess don't work when you are tinfoil hat wearing kool-aid drinker - 04/02/2012 09:33:49 PM 815 Views
Dude. - 04/02/2012 11:20:49 PM 772 Views
Yo mama? - 05/02/2012 05:32:11 AM 925 Views
whhhhhhyyyyyy - 04/02/2012 11:23:58 PM 894 Views
Why would I not think that? - 05/02/2012 05:46:15 AM 813 Views

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