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Nope... Shannow Send a noteboard - 09/12/2010 08:44:51 PM
13 women of 10 strength would not be strong enough to easily overcome Rand who would be stronger than Lanfear who you have as a 100, on this scale Rand must me at least a 125 meaning he may well be stronger than 13 linked Daigians. Since not 100% of a woman's strength can be used in a circle it would be a close struggle with a man such as Rand and we know from Asmodean that 13 women of even weak strength could do it and the "13 weakest in the Tower" would manhandle him like a child.

Daigian is much more likely to be 13-15 with Moiraine maybe as high as 45 and Elayne could be from a 75-80 based on the same quotes you are basing your arguments on. If you look at all of the FS level women in the 90-100 range this all makes sense ... Elayne would need a 25% uptick in strength to match Nynaeve (significant when you consider it's probably more raw strength than Daigian has). If Egwene/Elayne/Aviendha were that much weaker than the FS we would have seen instances where they could not accomplish tasks that only the FS level seem capable of.


Egwene says she has no chance against Moghedien. That means you have to AT LEAST add a full Dagian on top of Egwene to get to Moghedien's level. At least, else the outcome would not be beyond a doubt as Egwene stated it was.

That means if Egwene is at 75, which is the LOWEST level you put her at, then Moghedien has to be at around 85-90.

Nynaeve exactly matches Moghedien in the Shadow Rising at a time when Nynaeve is FAR from her full potential. Considering that women increase gradually in strength, and that Nynaeve has never been forced like Ewgene was, Nynaeve would under normal circumstances continue increasing in strength for many years after this point.

And as late as Book 8, Nynaeve STILL states that she has not yet reached her full potential. In fact, even now we have not yet been definitively told that Nynaeve is at her full strength, although we ASSUME as much after the Cleansing.

It is therefore highly likely that Nynaeve, in Book 4 had another 20-30% of growth ahead of her before she reached her full strength. And yet she already matched Moghedien in strength.

Therefore, to get to Nynaeve's full potential you would probably have to add AT LEAST 20-25% to Moghedien's 90. That means that Nynaeve is already sitting at about 110.

Now consider that Alivia is CONSIDERABLY stronger than Nynaeve, and you get to what, 120? 130? And then Lanfear is conceivably even stronger than that. So it is clear that your placement of Egwene is way too high in this context.

AS for Dagian and the Linking story, there are many factors at play here. Too many to use it to discount the clear evidence from all the other quotes.

Asmodean says 13 women who can barely channel can overwhelm most men, linked. Not all men.

He says the 13 weakest women in the Tower could overwhelm Rand and barely breathe hard.

Well, you have to ask the obvious question: Who does Asmodean consider a woman who can barely channel? I would argue that he would place Dagian in that category - if he knew her strength. Rahvin says the Aes Sedai he Compels in FoH isn't strong enough to be let outside without a keeper.

How would Asmodean know the strength of the average Aes Sedai in the Third Age Tower? He hasn't spent any time amongst them. In fact, he's been hiding in some hole since he's been released from the Bore, according to Lanfear. Keeping a low profile.

By his standards, 13 Dagian's might well be the "13 women who can barely channel", and who can overwhelm MOST men, linked. Not all men.

Also, the precision and other benefits of the link - as evidenced by the massive gateways 13 women can make - something like 20 times larger than Rand can make, for example - makes it very difficult to use this as a direct strength comparison.

It certainly isn't enough to disprove the rest of the comparative strength picture that has consistently been presented by the books.

This message last edited by Shannow on 09/12/2010 at 08:50:42 PM
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More evidence that Elayne is much weaker than the Forsaken - 09/12/2010 03:45:27 PM 3037 Views
Yes. - 09/12/2010 04:39:58 PM 1380 Views
No. - 09/12/2010 05:34:57 PM 1225 Views
Indeed! *NM* - 09/12/2010 05:39:47 PM 689 Views
Actually...exponential or at least non-linear makes alot of sense to me - 09/12/2010 06:27:29 PM 1164 Views
Nope. Then Rand would be able to crush 13 Aes Sedai with ease. - 09/12/2010 06:32:53 PM 1391 Views
Three things: - 09/12/2010 06:47:30 PM 1146 Views
I think that RJ's statement that the strongest man and strongest women were equal... - 10/12/2010 03:23:12 PM 1088 Views
I wasn't aware this was an issue? - 09/12/2010 04:45:02 PM 1175 Views
Agreed. - 20/12/2010 01:17:32 AM 1267 Views
not really - 09/12/2010 04:46:42 PM 1168 Views
and you'll note that none of the angreal are considered particularly strong - 09/12/2010 04:48:14 PM 1114 Views
She probably weaved them separately on account of being pregnant *NM* - 09/12/2010 04:56:12 PM 740 Views
Pregnancy seems to be interfere with her ability to grasp the power - 09/12/2010 05:06:15 PM 1139 Views
I don't know if it's a more complex CHANNELING undertaking, though - 09/12/2010 05:42:57 PM 1050 Views
Re: not really - 09/12/2010 05:16:02 PM 1077 Views
Angreal have buffers - 09/12/2010 05:38:45 PM 1087 Views
none of them are very strong - 09/12/2010 05:38:49 PM 1075 Views
We never really get a feel for their relative strengths - 09/12/2010 05:51:38 PM 913 Views
Re: We never really get a feel for their relative strengths - 09/12/2010 10:00:23 PM 1218 Views
Exactly - 10/12/2010 09:36:52 AM 1231 Views
Yes. In PoD Aviendha states that the woman-wrapped-in-hair angreal almost doubles her strength... - 09/12/2010 06:30:41 PM 1111 Views
you have the wrong angreal and the wrong strength - 09/12/2010 07:07:18 PM 1065 Views
Nope. You are the one whose got the wrong angreal... - 09/12/2010 07:15:38 PM 894 Views
where is that quote my friend? - 09/12/2010 08:07:50 PM 973 Views
PoD: The Breaking Storm - 09/12/2010 08:16:58 PM 880 Views
Ah yes, ... "almost 2x as much" still doesn't support your assertion that Nyn is 50% above Elayne - 09/12/2010 08:20:37 PM 1007 Views
That's a gross skewing of what that sentence means... - 09/12/2010 09:05:05 PM 1042 Views
Don't be absurd... - 09/12/2010 09:21:00 PM 1057 Views
Yes, but does BS know that? - 09/12/2010 09:26:10 PM 980 Views
Nonsense... - 09/12/2010 09:45:17 PM 1036 Views
she does not say that! she says Moghedien could kill her before she could react. so could Daigian - 09/12/2010 09:34:50 PM 1147 Views
"The only Aes Sedai who could hope to match one of the Forsaken was in Ebou Dar..." - 09/12/2010 09:44:25 PM 1140 Views
And yet... - 09/12/2010 09:48:34 PM 1074 Views
No, Egwene does NOT think she can defeat Mesaana in a One Power battle... - 09/12/2010 09:59:35 PM 1300 Views
Here are te quotes... - 09/12/2010 10:10:09 PM 1063 Views
Did you not read the quote above, made by Egwene in the heat of battle with Mesaana? - 09/12/2010 10:34:05 PM 1085 Views
It might interest you to know that that was Katerine! - 10/12/2010 12:15:51 AM 888 Views
Oh nonsense - 10/12/2010 04:43:44 AM 998 Views
But that's his point. - 10/12/2010 06:01:59 AM 1015 Views
its a useless point - 10/12/2010 10:11:00 AM 1089 Views
Yes, utterly useless... - 10/12/2010 11:46:15 AM 1041 Views
Dude, you need to re-read the books... - 10/12/2010 04:15:11 PM 980 Views
he means Sheriam, but your points still hold true - 10/12/2010 08:19:16 PM 994 Views
Re: he means Sheriam, but your points still hold true - 11/12/2010 07:21:49 AM 1065 Views
I'm so glad you're a mod! Setting great standards there... - 10/12/2010 04:11:56 PM 941 Views
Re: I'm so glad you're a mod! Setting great standards there... - 10/12/2010 04:35:23 PM 1006 Views
What? - 10/12/2010 11:19:57 PM 1037 Views
Re: What? - 11/12/2010 07:20:19 AM 1047 Views
Oh boohoo... - 11/12/2010 07:55:58 PM 1073 Views
Duh! Seriously, are you Elaida or something? Your logic is astounding. - 10/12/2010 06:47:17 AM 911 Views
Duh! Seriously, are you Elaida or something? Your logic is astounding. - 10/12/2010 06:47:18 AM 1030 Views
Nynaeve has been channeling (albeit blocked) for close to 10 years - 10/12/2010 02:24:57 PM 1114 Views
Think about the logic of what you're proposing... - 10/12/2010 02:39:56 PM 1054 Views
It's what's in the friggin books! - 10/12/2010 03:33:08 PM 1056 Views
Duplicate post - deleted *NM* - 09/12/2010 08:19:05 PM 534 Views
Re: Yes. - 09/12/2010 07:49:12 PM 1048 Views
You're obviously a latecomer to this ongoing debate. Here's a recap... - 09/12/2010 08:03:51 PM 1156 Views
where this falls apart is that Daigian at a 10 is too weak - 09/12/2010 08:16:17 PM 1105 Views
Nope... - 09/12/2010 08:44:51 PM 818 Views
now you are just force fitting quotes into what you want to say - 09/12/2010 09:29:20 PM 902 Views
Nope... - 09/12/2010 09:42:58 PM 994 Views
all of the girls were Forced! Nynaeve was already at least as strong as Moiraine in EoTW - 11/12/2010 08:04:02 PM 1051 Views
Re: all of the girls were Forced! Nynaeve was already at least as strong as Moiraine in EoTW - 11/12/2010 11:59:55 PM 984 Views
that's the point I'm making - 12/12/2010 12:58:38 AM 867 Views
I don't think Elayne was forced - 12/12/2010 04:33:26 PM 1004 Views
Re: now you are just force fitting quotes into what you want to say - 10/12/2010 01:17:10 AM 1201 Views
nope - 10/12/2010 02:05:00 PM 1135 Views
Mesaana - 10/12/2010 04:43:07 AM 897 Views
agreed - 10/12/2010 01:48:59 PM 971 Views
Re: agreed - 10/12/2010 04:38:28 PM 850 Views
very true, and I find it interesting that during the TAR battle Mesaana didn't bother - 10/12/2010 05:03:43 PM 886 Views
Re: very true, and I find it interesting that during the TAR battle Mesaana didn't bother - 11/12/2010 07:22:54 AM 1070 Views
yes and no - 11/12/2010 03:47:28 PM 1035 Views
Re: You're obviously a latecomer to this ongoing debate. Here's a recap... - 10/12/2010 09:19:17 AM 1079 Views
OK. Here's the clear evidence of Dagian's, Moiraine's, Egwenes and Moghedien's comparative levels. - 10/12/2010 12:00:48 PM 920 Views
"clear evidence" - 10/12/2010 01:27:01 PM 1010 Views
Laughable interpretation... - 10/12/2010 01:31:57 PM 1044 Views
Re: Laughable interpretation... - 10/12/2010 03:34:01 PM 1060 Views
Amys is clearly stronger than half Egwene's strength... - 10/12/2010 04:27:30 PM 997 Views
Doesn't the forkroot explain that? *NM* - 10/12/2010 04:47:53 PM 718 Views
couple of thoughts here - 10/12/2010 08:01:44 PM 1044 Views
Re: couple of thoughts here - 10/12/2010 11:27:19 PM 970 Views
that's what I said! EDIT - 11/12/2010 04:03:59 PM 850 Views
Well... - 11/12/2010 07:58:38 PM 1074 Views
Katerine is a pain in the ass and Silviana wasn't about to risk only one woman holding that shield - 11/12/2010 08:26:29 PM 911 Views
Leane was shielded by two sisters as well - 11/12/2010 11:14:08 PM 933 Views
I think that's almost certainly a custom for women held in the open cells - 11/12/2010 11:22:12 PM 945 Views
Re: I think that's almost certainly a custom for women held in the open cells - 12/12/2010 12:04:33 AM 1034 Views
I agree with that completely. - 12/12/2010 01:03:54 AM 977 Views
Oh... so we dismiss all quotes from people we don't like? - 12/12/2010 05:18:42 AM 1048 Views
re-read the section my friend. EDIT - 12/12/2010 03:58:28 PM 929 Views
Dude... - 12/12/2010 06:29:43 PM 932 Views
did you read the quote? They discuss how much they gave her on the way to the Tower! - 12/12/2010 07:39:55 PM 1005 Views
Not one of those things answers my rather simple question... - 13/12/2010 02:27:44 AM 1006 Views
because it's the first time Egwene has been dosed with Forkroot - 13/12/2010 03:55:18 AM 949 Views
She knows but she doesn't know? - 13/12/2010 05:35:55 AM 1009 Views
She knows that Nynaeve had told her it dampened her ability - 13/12/2010 05:13:23 PM 968 Views
And she doesn't know any details... - 13/12/2010 07:19:12 PM 969 Views
this conversation is so pointless - 13/12/2010 10:43:35 PM 816 Views
Yes. But since you continue to not answer the main question, necessary. - 13/12/2010 11:24:24 PM 856 Views
Re: Yes. But since you continue to not answer the main question, necessary. - 14/12/2010 11:06:55 AM 870 Views
Of course its obvious now! - 14/12/2010 12:44:59 PM 1059 Views
Shielding - 13/12/2010 08:01:19 PM 2406 Views
Practice. We do know that AS practice their weaves far more than WO - 13/12/2010 10:50:09 PM 993 Views
There is, actually... - 13/12/2010 11:28:42 PM 910 Views
Meh - 14/12/2010 04:22:45 AM 1002 Views
Well... - 14/12/2010 04:37:50 AM 1026 Views
Re: Well... - 14/12/2010 10:52:55 AM 999 Views
Tell Darius that... - 14/12/2010 12:47:19 PM 930 Views
Re: Amys is clearly stronger than half Egwene's strength... - 11/12/2010 07:31:25 AM 1134 Views
You forget... - 11/12/2010 08:02:03 PM 1059 Views
astounding "evidence" - 10/12/2010 09:58:47 PM 1049 Views
Re: astounding "evidence" - 11/12/2010 09:15:03 AM 1064 Views
thanks - 11/12/2010 03:54:54 PM 1197 Views
Re: thanks - 12/12/2010 12:49:52 PM 897 Views
We're not in disagreement for the most part - 12/12/2010 04:23:02 PM 889 Views
Re: We're not in disagreement for the most part - 12/12/2010 05:00:02 PM 1008 Views
I don't get the logic here... - 09/12/2010 09:41:18 PM 1039 Views
which was one of my first thoughts in reading the scene! *NM* - 09/12/2010 09:43:54 PM 788 Views
It doubles her strength. Nynaeve is only 50% stronger. So she only needs half of it to match Nynaeve - 09/12/2010 09:46:42 PM 1010 Views
And...? - 09/12/2010 09:51:57 PM 1015 Views
Personally, I thought it had something to do with not harming the babies. - 09/12/2010 10:01:10 PM 913 Views
That was my interpretation too - 10/12/2010 04:36:38 AM 948 Views
Re: That was my interpretation too - 10/12/2010 09:31:12 AM 1091 Views
what books are you reading? she's absolutely convinced until that scene - 10/12/2010 04:12:34 PM 1083 Views
The oaths proposal is after the jailhouse break in the timeline - 10/12/2010 04:31:12 PM 943 Views
*Double post, please delete* *NM* - 10/12/2010 04:35:54 PM 616 Views
And... - 10/12/2010 04:32:28 PM 981 Views
Re: what books are you reading? she's absolutely convinced until that scene - 10/12/2010 04:41:25 PM 968 Views
Re: what books are you reading? she's absolutely convinced until that scene - 10/12/2010 05:02:10 PM 993 Views
and as a poster above points out the scene is AFTER she's stabbed - 10/12/2010 05:07:17 PM 1003 Views
Yes, I did know that. - 11/12/2010 04:06:00 PM 992 Views
meant that response to go to Sidious ... sorry! - 11/12/2010 08:44:40 PM 1060 Views
Oops. *NM* - 10/12/2010 07:15:57 PM 683 Views
Re: More evidence that Elayne is much weaker than the Forsaken - 10/12/2010 08:22:21 PM 926 Views
Re: More evidence that Elayne is much weaker than the Forsaken - 10/12/2010 08:33:25 PM 991 Views
We have very little to go on with the FS strengths... - 10/12/2010 09:04:33 PM 1061 Views
Re: More evidence that Elayne is much weaker than the Forsaken - 10/12/2010 09:31:13 PM 1045 Views
Re: More evidence that Elayne is much weaker than the Forsaken - 10/12/2010 10:50:20 PM 1031 Views
Re: More evidence that Elayne is much weaker than the Forsaken - 11/12/2010 07:29:30 AM 1184 Views
Help im new! - 13/12/2010 07:41:04 PM 1062 Views
Re: More evidence you haven't been paying attention. - 13/12/2010 09:56:45 PM 1146 Views
Re: More evidence you haven't been paying attention. - 13/12/2010 10:50:25 PM 965 Views
How is it that this the longest thread on this board? Is it even relevant in the least? *NM* - 18/12/2010 02:53:22 PM 701 Views
Re: How is it that this the longest thread on this board? Is it even relevant in the least? - 18/12/2010 08:21:24 PM 952 Views
Look at the topic. As if we needed evidence that Elayne is weaker than the Foresaken. - 19/12/2010 04:41:25 AM 955 Views
you misread the topic - 19/12/2010 05:30:26 AM 1084 Views
But the debate is moronic because... - 19/12/2010 05:43:07 AM 934 Views

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