now you are just force fitting quotes into what you want to say
darius_sedai Send a noteboard - 09/12/2010 09:29:20 PM
darius_sedai Send a noteboard - 09/12/2010 09:29:20 PM
13 women of 10 strength would not be strong enough to easily overcome Rand who would be stronger than Lanfear who you have as a 100, on this scale Rand must me at least a 125 meaning he may well be stronger than 13 linked Daigians. Since not 100% of a woman's strength can be used in a circle it would be a close struggle with a man such as Rand and we know from Asmodean that 13 women of even weak strength could do it and the "13 weakest in the Tower" would manhandle him like a child.
Daigian is much more likely to be 13-15 with Moiraine maybe as high as 45 and Elayne could be from a 75-80 based on the same quotes you are basing your arguments on. If you look at all of the FS level women in the 90-100 range this all makes sense ... Elayne would need a 25% uptick in strength to match Nynaeve (significant when you consider it's probably more raw strength than Daigian has). If Egwene/Elayne/Aviendha were that much weaker than the FS we would have seen instances where they could not accomplish tasks that only the FS level seem capable of.
Daigian is much more likely to be 13-15 with Moiraine maybe as high as 45 and Elayne could be from a 75-80 based on the same quotes you are basing your arguments on. If you look at all of the FS level women in the 90-100 range this all makes sense ... Elayne would need a 25% uptick in strength to match Nynaeve (significant when you consider it's probably more raw strength than Daigian has). If Egwene/Elayne/Aviendha were that much weaker than the FS we would have seen instances where they could not accomplish tasks that only the FS level seem capable of.
Egwene says she has no chance against Moghedien. That means you have to AT LEAST add a full Dagian on top of Egwene to get to Moghedien's level. At least, else the outcome would not be beyond a doubt as Egwene stated it was.
That means if Egwene is at 75, which is the LOWEST level you put her at, then Moghedien has to be at around 85-90.
Nynaeve exactly matches Moghedien in the Shadow Rising at a time when Nynaeve is FAR from her full potential. Considering that women increase gradually in strength, and that Nynaeve has never been forced like Ewgene was, Nynaeve would under normal circumstances continue increasing in strength for many years after this point.
And as late as Book 8, Nynaeve STILL states that she has not yet reached her full potential. In fact, even now we have not yet been definitively told that Nynaeve is at her full strength, although we ASSUME as much after the Cleansing.
It is therefore highly likely that Nynaeve, in Book 4 had another 20-30% of growth ahead of her before she reached her full strength. And yet she already matched Moghedien in strength.
Therefore, to get to Nynaeve's full potential you would probably have to add AT LEAST 20-25% to Moghedien's 90. That means that Nynaeve is already sitting at about 110.
Now consider that Alivia is CONSIDERABLY stronger than Nynaeve, and you get to what, 120? 130? And then Lanfear is conceivably even stronger than that. So it is clear that your placement of Egwene is way too high in this context.
AS for Dagian and the Linking story, there are many factors at play here. Too many to use it to discount the clear evidence from all the other quotes.
Asmodean says 13 women who can barely channel can overwhelm most men, linked. Not all men.
He says the 13 weakest women in the Tower could overwhelm Rand and barely breathe hard.
Well, you have to ask the obvious question: Who does Asmodean consider a woman who can barely channel? I would argue that he would place Dagian in that category - if he knew her strength. Rahvin says the Aes Sedai he Compels in FoH isn't strong enough to be let outside without a keeper.
How would Asmodean know the strength of the average Aes Sedai in the Third Age Tower? He hasn't spent any time amongst them. In fact, he's been hiding in some hole since he's been released from the Bore, according to Lanfear. Keeping a low profile.
By his standards, 13 Dagian's might well be the "13 women who can barely channel", and who can overwhelm MOST men, linked. Not all men.
Also, the precision and other benefits of the link - as evidenced by the massive gateways 13 women can make - something like 20 times larger than Rand can make, for example - makes it very difficult to use this as a direct strength comparison.
It certainly isn't enough to disprove the rest of the comparative strength picture that has consistently been presented by the books.
Egwene never says she has no chance against Moghedien. She says Mogs could kill her before she or anyone in camp even knew what was happening ... Egwene also says she can face and defeat Mesaana.
I think the comparative picture has shifted throughout the series. Note that now Graendal is strong enough to shield a FS level male channeler, another woman and hold open a gateway simultaneously... this is a clear indication that RJ at some point backed off his earlier assertion that men were much stronger, as back in LOC Rhavin assumed he could overwhelm Graendal or Lanfear, which is clearly not the case. Moiraine is certain Egwene and Aviendha (who were not yet at full potential) could overwhelm one of the female forsaken ... Nynaeve could not shield Elayne at one point, but later can shield Talaan who is even stronger ...
If Egwene/Elayne are 80 MOghedien could be a 90 with still plenty of room for the more powerful Forsaken levels. There is no reason Nynaeve needs to be less than a 94 which would be Egwene+Daigian, if Mesaana is a 92 that's in the range that Egwene could face and defeat. Egwene and Aviendha could have been an average 65 at the time Moiraine made her comment and linked would have been more than the equal of any FS female.
We had further evidence in TOM from Mat actually. He notes how AS never lift things more than a few inches off the ground. Compare to Egwene lifting 3 women 4 paces into the air! The evidence is all over the series that the "Wonder Girls" are just a step lower than the Forsaken and FAR above regular AS ... in fact we know that they are about 2x the strongest sisters (Cadsuane aside), but there is no evidence that Nynaeve is 3x Moiraine, if she was that strong there would have been no issue with her shielding Elayne. I'd say she's probably is 3x someone like Nesune (the level of women below Sheriam, let's say 32) where Egwene is more like 2.5x that level.
I have to run now, and this argument continues to go in the same circles anyway
Domani Drag Queen in the White Tower ... Aran'gar watch out!
More evidence that Elayne is much weaker than the Forsaken
- 09/12/2010 03:45:27 PM
3332 Views
Yes.
- 09/12/2010 04:39:58 PM
1659 Views
No.
- 09/12/2010 05:34:57 PM
1492 Views
Actually...exponential or at least non-linear makes alot of sense to me
- 09/12/2010 06:27:29 PM
1409 Views
Nope. Then Rand would be able to crush 13 Aes Sedai with ease.
- 09/12/2010 06:32:53 PM
1626 Views
Three things:
- 09/12/2010 06:47:30 PM
1442 Views
That quote is incorrect as it contradicts all other evidence from later books...
- 09/12/2010 06:51:02 PM
1421 Views
If strength isn't linear and on a steep enough curve that could work.
- 09/12/2010 07:22:24 PM
1455 Views
I think that RJ's statement that the strongest man and strongest women were equal...
- 10/12/2010 03:23:12 PM
1349 Views
I wasn't aware this was an issue?
- 09/12/2010 04:45:02 PM
1453 Views
I just hope aMoL finally reveals who's going to be the Dragon Reborn...these lesser debates can hang *NM*
- 09/12/2010 05:26:37 PM
889 Views
not really
- 09/12/2010 04:46:42 PM
1437 Views
and you'll note that none of the angreal are considered particularly strong
- 09/12/2010 04:48:14 PM
1365 Views
She probably weaved them separately on account of being pregnant *NM*
- 09/12/2010 04:56:12 PM
867 Views
Pregnancy seems to be interfere with her ability to grasp the power
- 09/12/2010 05:06:15 PM
1405 Views
I don't know if it's a more complex CHANNELING undertaking, though
- 09/12/2010 05:42:57 PM
1326 Views
I don't have the book handy, but she talks about the level of complexity
- 09/12/2010 05:45:52 PM
1439 Views
hmm, but we still don't know if it's the weaves or the process that is so complex
- 09/12/2010 06:28:14 PM
1234 Views
Well according to Monaella it makes it harder to Channel, but from Elayne's POV
- 09/12/2010 06:52:55 PM
1346 Views
We never really get a feel for their relative strengths
- 09/12/2010 05:51:38 PM
1229 Views
Yes. In PoD Aviendha states that the woman-wrapped-in-hair angreal almost doubles her strength...
- 09/12/2010 06:30:41 PM
1389 Views
you have the wrong angreal and the wrong strength
- 09/12/2010 07:07:18 PM
1361 Views
Nope. You are the one whose got the wrong angreal...
- 09/12/2010 07:15:38 PM
1172 Views
where is that quote my friend?
- 09/12/2010 08:07:50 PM
1222 Views
PoD: The Breaking Storm
- 09/12/2010 08:16:58 PM
1200 Views
Ah yes, ... "almost 2x as much" still doesn't support your assertion that Nyn is 50% above Elayne
- 09/12/2010 08:20:37 PM
1319 Views
That's a gross skewing of what that sentence means...
- 09/12/2010 09:05:05 PM
1325 Views
Don't be absurd...
- 09/12/2010 09:21:00 PM
1329 Views
she does not say that! she says Moghedien could kill her before she could react. so could Daigian
- 09/12/2010 09:34:50 PM
1395 Views
"The only Aes Sedai who could hope to match one of the Forsaken was in Ebou Dar..."
- 09/12/2010 09:44:25 PM
1420 Views
And yet...
- 09/12/2010 09:48:34 PM
1317 Views
No, Egwene does NOT think she can defeat Mesaana in a One Power battle...
- 09/12/2010 09:59:35 PM
1563 Views
Here are te quotes...
- 09/12/2010 10:10:09 PM
1360 Views
Did you not read the quote above, made by Egwene in the heat of battle with Mesaana?
- 09/12/2010 10:34:05 PM
1377 Views
It might interest you to know that that was Katerine!
- 10/12/2010 12:15:51 AM
1169 Views
Oh nonsense
- 10/12/2010 04:43:44 AM
1244 Views
But that's his point.
- 10/12/2010 06:01:59 AM
1258 Views
its a useless point
- 10/12/2010 10:11:00 AM
1345 Views
I'm so glad you're a mod! Setting great standards there...
- 10/12/2010 04:11:56 PM
1227 Views
Yes, utterly useless...
- 10/12/2010 11:46:15 AM
1320 Views
Dude, you need to re-read the books...
- 10/12/2010 04:15:11 PM
1244 Views
he means Sheriam, but your points still hold true
- 10/12/2010 08:19:16 PM
1261 Views
Re: he means Sheriam, but your points still hold true
- 11/12/2010 07:21:49 AM
1323 Views
potentially, but Mesaana later turns up with BA using the 19 stolen ter'angreal.
- 11/12/2010 03:41:41 PM
1235 Views
I'm so glad you're a mod! Setting great standards there...
- 10/12/2010 04:11:56 PM
1227 Views
Re:
I'm so glad you're a mod! Setting great standards there...
- 10/12/2010 04:35:23 PM
1302 Views
I'm so glad you're a mod! Setting great standards there...
- 10/12/2010 04:35:23 PM
1302 Views
Duh! Seriously, are you Elaida or something? Your logic is astounding.
- 10/12/2010 06:47:17 AM
1182 Views
Duh! Seriously, are you Elaida or something? Your logic is astounding.
- 10/12/2010 06:47:18 AM
1306 Views
which only tells us that Nynaeve is equal to the Forsaken. Has nothing to do with Egwene being
- 10/12/2010 01:51:12 PM
1104 Views
Nynaeve has been channeling (albeit blocked) for close to 10 years
- 10/12/2010 02:24:57 PM
1425 Views
Re: Yes.
- 09/12/2010 07:49:12 PM
1332 Views
You're obviously a latecomer to this ongoing debate. Here's a recap...
- 09/12/2010 08:03:51 PM
1454 Views
where this falls apart is that Daigian at a 10 is too weak
- 09/12/2010 08:16:17 PM
1369 Views
Nope...
- 09/12/2010 08:44:51 PM
1100 Views
now you are just force fitting quotes into what you want to say
- 09/12/2010 09:29:20 PM
1209 Views
- 09/12/2010 09:29:20 PM
1209 Views
Nope...
- 09/12/2010 09:42:58 PM
1284 Views
all of the girls were Forced! Nynaeve was already at least as strong as Moiraine in EoTW
- 11/12/2010 08:04:02 PM
1323 Views
Re: all of the girls were Forced! Nynaeve was already at least as strong as Moiraine in EoTW
- 11/12/2010 11:59:55 PM
1255 Views
I don't think Elayne was forced
- 12/12/2010 04:33:26 PM
1285 Views
I believe there is a quote from RJ that states they all were, but Egwene was held damane
- 12/12/2010 04:43:29 PM
1067 Views
Re: I believe there is a quote from RJ that states they all were, but Egwene was held damane
- 12/12/2010 04:46:50 PM
1323 Views
Thanks for the quote
- 12/12/2010 07:17:30 PM
1388 Views
perhaps the opportunity hasn't arisen? And of course it's politic to appologize to the Amyrlin
- 12/12/2010 07:41:11 PM
1258 Views
- 12/12/2010 07:41:11 PM
1258 Views
Re: all of the girls were Forced! Nynaeve was already at least as strong as Moiraine in EoTW
- 12/12/2010 08:04:21 PM
1274 Views
that's where I'm estimating Nynaeve being close to Siuan and Moiraine in EoTW
- 12/12/2010 08:30:54 PM
1263 Views
Re: now you are just force fitting quotes into what you want to say
- 10/12/2010 01:17:10 AM
1481 Views
- 10/12/2010 01:17:10 AM
1481 Views
Mesaana
- 10/12/2010 04:43:07 AM
1172 Views
agreed
- 10/12/2010 01:48:59 PM
1219 Views
Re: agreed
- 10/12/2010 04:38:28 PM
1098 Views
very true, and I find it interesting that during the TAR battle Mesaana didn't bother
- 10/12/2010 05:03:43 PM
1193 Views
Re: very true, and I find it interesting that during the TAR battle Mesaana didn't bother
- 11/12/2010 07:22:54 AM
1359 Views
Re: You're obviously a latecomer to this ongoing debate. Here's a recap...
- 10/12/2010 09:19:17 AM
1358 Views
OK. Here's the clear evidence of Dagian's, Moiraine's, Egwenes and Moghedien's comparative levels.
- 10/12/2010 12:00:48 PM
1262 Views
"clear evidence"
- 10/12/2010 01:27:01 PM
1291 Views
Laughable interpretation...
- 10/12/2010 01:31:57 PM
1291 Views
Amys is clearly stronger than half Egwene's strength...
- 10/12/2010 04:27:30 PM
1238 Views
couple of thoughts here
- 10/12/2010 08:01:44 PM
1282 Views
Re: couple of thoughts here
- 10/12/2010 11:27:19 PM
1216 Views
that's what I said! EDIT
- 11/12/2010 04:03:59 PM
1122 Views
Well...
- 11/12/2010 07:58:38 PM
1303 Views
Katerine is a pain in the ass and Silviana wasn't about to risk only one woman holding that shield
- 11/12/2010 08:26:29 PM
1150 Views
Leane was shielded by two sisters as well
- 11/12/2010 11:14:08 PM
1183 Views
I think that's almost certainly a custom for women held in the open cells
- 11/12/2010 11:22:12 PM
1212 Views
Re: I think that's almost certainly a custom for women held in the open cells
- 12/12/2010 12:04:33 AM
1312 Views
Oh... so we dismiss all quotes from people we don't like?
- 12/12/2010 05:18:42 AM
1310 Views
re-read the section my friend. EDIT
- 12/12/2010 03:58:28 PM
1225 Views
Dude...
- 12/12/2010 06:29:43 PM
1183 Views
did you read the quote? They discuss how much they gave her on the way to the Tower!
- 12/12/2010 07:39:55 PM
1321 Views
Not one of those things answers my rather simple question...
- 13/12/2010 02:27:44 AM
1292 Views
because it's the first time Egwene has been dosed with Forkroot
- 13/12/2010 03:55:18 AM
1204 Views
She knows but she doesn't know?
- 13/12/2010 05:35:55 AM
1299 Views
She knows that Nynaeve had told her it dampened her ability
- 13/12/2010 05:13:23 PM
1207 Views
And she doesn't know any details...
- 13/12/2010 07:19:12 PM
1241 Views
this conversation is so pointless
- 13/12/2010 10:43:35 PM
1106 Views
Yes. But since you continue to not answer the main question, necessary.
- 13/12/2010 11:24:24 PM
1109 Views
Re: Yes. But since you continue to not answer the main question, necessary.
- 14/12/2010 11:06:55 AM
1118 Views
Of course its obvious now!
- 14/12/2010 12:44:59 PM
1314 Views
it was always obvious that to me. The first thing Egwene thinks is about what the drug does to her
- 18/12/2010 05:07:38 AM
1166 Views
Shielding
- 13/12/2010 08:01:19 PM
2677 Views
Practice. We do know that AS practice their weaves far more than WO
- 13/12/2010 10:50:09 PM
1264 Views
Re: Practice. We do know that AS practice their weaves far more than WO
- 14/12/2010 04:25:20 AM
1408 Views
There is, actually...
- 13/12/2010 11:28:42 PM
1167 Views
Meh
- 14/12/2010 04:22:45 AM
1277 Views
Well...
- 14/12/2010 04:37:50 AM
1299 Views
Re: Well...
- 14/12/2010 10:52:55 AM
1267 Views
of course Katerine is redundant! 2 women of Barasine and Katerine's strength
- 18/12/2010 05:00:50 AM
1189 Views
Re: Amys is clearly stronger than half Egwene's strength...
- 11/12/2010 07:31:25 AM
1390 Views
um, Elayne was in the process of bleeding to death and then had just been Healed
- 11/12/2010 03:50:27 PM
1301 Views
astounding "evidence"
- 10/12/2010 09:58:47 PM
1319 Views
Re: astounding "evidence"
- 11/12/2010 09:15:03 AM
1350 Views
thanks
- 11/12/2010 03:54:54 PM
1466 Views
Re: thanks
- 12/12/2010 12:49:52 PM
1182 Views
We're not in disagreement for the most part
- 12/12/2010 04:23:02 PM
1166 Views
Re: We're not in disagreement for the most part
- 12/12/2010 05:00:02 PM
1273 Views
Actually in the AoL all AS who went over (50%) were refered to as Forsaken
- 12/12/2010 05:13:46 PM
1287 Views
Re: Actually in the AoL all AS who went over (50%) were refered to as Forsaken
- 12/12/2010 06:35:02 PM
1266 Views
All of the AS who went over to the DO refered to themselves as the Chosen
- 12/12/2010 07:50:59 PM
1279 Views
Re: All of the AS who went over to the DO refered to themselves as the Chosen
- 12/12/2010 11:05:58 PM
1311 Views
Re: All of the AS who went over to the DO refered to themselves as the Chosen
- 12/12/2010 11:11:29 PM
1234 Views
Re: All of the AS who went over to the DO refered to themselves as the Chosen
- 12/12/2010 11:14:47 PM
1290 Views
I don't get the logic here...
- 09/12/2010 09:41:18 PM
1321 Views
It doubles her strength. Nynaeve is only 50% stronger. So she only needs half of it to match Nynaeve
- 09/12/2010 09:46:42 PM
1247 Views
And...?
- 09/12/2010 09:51:57 PM
1259 Views
Personally, I thought it had something to do with not harming the babies.
- 09/12/2010 10:01:10 PM
1187 Views
That was my interpretation too
- 10/12/2010 04:36:38 AM
1221 Views
what books are you reading? she's absolutely convinced until that scene
- 10/12/2010 04:12:34 PM
1322 Views
The oaths proposal is after the jailhouse break in the timeline
- 10/12/2010 04:31:12 PM
1214 Views
You are correct! So clearly worry about the babies was not a reason to not draw more
- 10/12/2010 05:05:30 PM
1227 Views
Re: what books are you reading? she's absolutely convinced until that scene
- 10/12/2010 04:41:25 PM
1229 Views
Re: what books are you reading? she's absolutely convinced until that scene
- 10/12/2010 05:02:10 PM
1228 Views
and as a poster above points out the scene is AFTER she's stabbed
- 10/12/2010 05:07:17 PM
1268 Views
Re: More evidence that Elayne is much weaker than the Forsaken
- 10/12/2010 08:22:21 PM
1185 Views
Re: More evidence that Elayne is much weaker than the Forsaken
- 10/12/2010 08:33:25 PM
1257 Views
Re: More evidence that Elayne is much weaker than the Forsaken
- 10/12/2010 09:12:12 PM
1137 Views
they can actually sense both which is how Elayne knows Nynaeve is not at full potential
- 10/12/2010 09:22:35 PM
1285 Views
Re: More evidence that Elayne is much weaker than the Forsaken
- 10/12/2010 09:31:13 PM
1323 Views
Please note that Nynaeve has commented every time she's been around
- 10/12/2010 10:08:16 PM
1216 Views
Re: Please note that Nynaeve has commented every time she's been around
- 10/12/2010 10:50:32 PM
1308 Views
It's more than just fear of Moridin that makes her choose an attack from such a distance
- 10/12/2010 11:10:57 PM
1205 Views
How is it that this the longest thread on this board? Is it even relevant in the least? *NM*
- 18/12/2010 02:53:22 PM
830 Views
Re: How is it that this the longest thread on this board? Is it even relevant in the least?
- 18/12/2010 08:21:24 PM
1161 Views
Look at the topic. As if we needed evidence that Elayne is weaker than the Foresaken.
- 19/12/2010 04:41:25 AM
1193 Views

*NM*