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Re: You're obviously a latecomer to this ongoing debate. Here's a recap... moratcorlm Send a noteboard - 10/12/2010 09:19:17 AM
The evidence can best be pieced together as an overall picture, like a puzzle, that is reconstructed from a multitude of bits and pieces spread across the books.
Of course it can. And I've seen nothing that suggests to me that, say, Linda's ranking at the 13th Depository (http://13depository.blogspot.com/2009/02/saidar-strength-ranking.html#chart) is less accurate than yours.
The weakest Aes Sedai - Dagian - is approximately one third the strength of the strongest Third Age Aes Sedai - Moiraine, Lelaine, Romanda, Siuan and Elaida.
So if you make Dagian a 10 (to use a round figure), then Moiraine would be a 30.
Why a ten? Why not, say, a 20?
Egwene is stronger than Amys and Melaine combined. There are two contradictory quotes on Amys strength, but the most realistic one puts her about 1 level below Moiraine, but still stronger than most modern Aes Sedai.
Melaine is weaker than Amys, but still above average for an Aes Sedai.
So, a strength of 50-55 would be accurate for Egwene in this context.
Why a 50-55? Why not a 70?
Egwene herself makes it clear that there is a big gulf between herself and Moghedien. She says she stands no chance against Moghedien. That's from her own mouth.
So, if Egwene is sitting at around 50, then Moghedien has to be so much stronger than her that there can be no hope of Egwene standing a chance against her. That means Moghedien has to be at around 65 at the weakest.
That does not indicate a big gulf. Particularly if she's thinking about the kind of duel Nynaeve and Moghedien had in TSR, where they're simply throwing their entire strength back and forth with no finesse at all, in which case a 51, ceteris paribus, would always defeat a 50.
Moghedien is the weakest of the Forsaken
This is, honestly, debatable.
Nynaeve easily still had 25-30% of her strength still to GROW at the time that she equaled Moghedien. I don't think anyone can really dispute that.
When you're just pulling that number out of your ass, of course we can.
At the same time, we know that Alivia is CONSIDERABLY stronger than Nynaeve.
That judgment was made in WH8, less than a year after you think Nynaeve still has 30% left to grow. We have no way of knowing what "considerably" means.
So there has to be enough room above Nynaeve to adequately incorporate these strength levels as well.
And there is. But it does not necessitate your leaps and bounds between levels of strength.

Incidentally, Linda's chart converts to this on a hundred-point scale:
100 Lanfear
95 Cyndane/Alivia
90 Graendal
86 Nynaeve (full)/Semirhage
81 Mesaana
76 Moghedien
71 Egwene/Elayne/Aviendha
67 Cadsuane
62 Meilyn/Karene
57 Elaida/Romanda/Lelaine/Moiraine/Siuan (old)
52 Amys
48 Anaiya
43 Delana
38 Alanna
33 Chesmal
29 Adeleas
24 Siuan (new)
19 Daigian
14 below novice
10 below novice
5 Morgase
Provisional calendar for Towers of Midnight: https://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=0ApFWTyzG9G_UdHZCUjQzVGNLeUJyMkUycXkzQlExSFE&output=html
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More evidence that Elayne is much weaker than the Forsaken Sidious - 09/12/2010 03:45:27 PM 3368 Views
Yes. Cannoli - 09/12/2010 04:39:58 PM 1704 Views
No. moratcorlm - 09/12/2010 05:34:57 PM 1543 Views
Indeed! *NM* darius_sedai - 09/12/2010 05:39:47 PM 830 Views
Actually...exponential or at least non-linear makes alot of sense to me Myrdhyn - 09/12/2010 06:27:29 PM 1449 Views
Nope. Then Rand would be able to crush 13 Aes Sedai with ease. Shannow - 09/12/2010 06:32:53 PM 1657 Views
Three things: Myrdhyn - 09/12/2010 06:47:30 PM 1486 Views
That quote is incorrect as it contradicts all other evidence from later books... Shannow - 09/12/2010 06:51:02 PM 1462 Views
If strength isn't linear and on a steep enough curve that could work. Myrdhyn - 09/12/2010 07:22:24 PM 1496 Views
I think that RJ's statement that the strongest man and strongest women were equal... RugbyPlayingAshaman - 10/12/2010 03:23:12 PM 1380 Views
I wasn't aware this was an issue? LadyLorraine - 09/12/2010 04:45:02 PM 1504 Views
I just hope aMoL finally reveals who's going to be the Dragon Reborn...these lesser debates can hang *NM* Cannoli - 09/12/2010 05:26:37 PM 911 Views
*Spoiler* TGS and TOM revealed that Egwene is the DR. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 10/12/2010 07:57:53 PM 1239 Views
Agreed. Joel - 20/12/2010 01:17:32 AM 1552 Views
not really darius_sedai - 09/12/2010 04:46:42 PM 1481 Views
and you'll note that none of the angreal are considered particularly strong darius_sedai - 09/12/2010 04:48:14 PM 1401 Views
She probably weaved them separately on account of being pregnant *NM* Kieran - 09/12/2010 04:56:12 PM 886 Views
Pregnancy seems to be interfere with her ability to grasp the power darius_sedai - 09/12/2010 05:06:15 PM 1449 Views
I don't know if it's a more complex CHANNELING undertaking, though LadyLorraine - 09/12/2010 05:42:57 PM 1373 Views
I don't have the book handy, but she talks about the level of complexity darius_sedai - 09/12/2010 05:45:52 PM 1490 Views
hmm, but we still don't know if it's the weaves or the process that is so complex LadyLorraine - 09/12/2010 06:28:14 PM 1287 Views
Well according to Monaella it makes it harder to Channel, but from Elayne's POV darius_sedai - 09/12/2010 06:52:55 PM 1397 Views
Re: not really Zeratul - 09/12/2010 05:16:02 PM 1408 Views
Angreal have buffers moratcorlm - 09/12/2010 05:38:45 PM 1415 Views
none of them are very strong darius_sedai - 09/12/2010 05:38:49 PM 1363 Views
We never really get a feel for their relative strengths redqueen - 09/12/2010 05:51:38 PM 1267 Views
Re: We never really get a feel for their relative strengths sleepinghour - 09/12/2010 10:00:23 PM 1533 Views
Exactly moratcorlm - 10/12/2010 09:36:52 AM 1544 Views
Yes. In PoD Aviendha states that the woman-wrapped-in-hair angreal almost doubles her strength... Shannow - 09/12/2010 06:30:41 PM 1437 Views
you have the wrong angreal and the wrong strength darius_sedai - 09/12/2010 07:07:18 PM 1396 Views
Nope. You are the one whose got the wrong angreal... Shannow - 09/12/2010 07:15:38 PM 1225 Views
where is that quote my friend? darius_sedai - 09/12/2010 08:07:50 PM 1283 Views
PoD: The Breaking Storm Shannow - 09/12/2010 08:16:58 PM 1249 Views
Ah yes, ... "almost 2x as much" still doesn't support your assertion that Nyn is 50% above Elayne darius_sedai - 09/12/2010 08:20:37 PM 1361 Views
That's a gross skewing of what that sentence means... Shannow - 09/12/2010 09:05:05 PM 1361 Views
Don't be absurd... fionwe1987 - 09/12/2010 09:21:00 PM 1363 Views
Yes, but does BS know that? Shannow - 09/12/2010 09:26:10 PM 1314 Views
Nonsense... fionwe1987 - 09/12/2010 09:45:17 PM 1318 Views
she does not say that! she says Moghedien could kill her before she could react. so could Daigian darius_sedai - 09/12/2010 09:34:50 PM 1427 Views
"The only Aes Sedai who could hope to match one of the Forsaken was in Ebou Dar..." Shannow - 09/12/2010 09:44:25 PM 1464 Views
And yet... fionwe1987 - 09/12/2010 09:48:34 PM 1359 Views
No, Egwene does NOT think she can defeat Mesaana in a One Power battle... Shannow - 09/12/2010 09:59:35 PM 1610 Views
Here are te quotes... fionwe1987 - 09/12/2010 10:10:09 PM 1401 Views
Did you not read the quote above, made by Egwene in the heat of battle with Mesaana? Shannow - 09/12/2010 10:34:05 PM 1425 Views
It might interest you to know that that was Katerine! fionwe1987 - 10/12/2010 12:15:51 AM 1205 Views
Oh nonsense Sidious - 10/12/2010 04:43:44 AM 1297 Views
But that's his point. Gher - 10/12/2010 06:01:59 AM 1299 Views
its a useless point Sidious - 10/12/2010 10:11:00 AM 1386 Views
Yes, utterly useless... Shannow - 10/12/2010 11:46:15 AM 1353 Views
Dude, you need to re-read the books... fionwe1987 - 10/12/2010 04:15:11 PM 1285 Views
he means Sheriam, but your points still hold true darius_sedai - 10/12/2010 08:19:16 PM 1300 Views
Re: he means Sheriam, but your points still hold true Sidious - 11/12/2010 07:21:49 AM 1357 Views
potentially, but Mesaana later turns up with BA using the 19 stolen ter'angreal. darius_sedai - 11/12/2010 03:41:41 PM 1266 Views
I'm so glad you're a mod! Setting great standards there... fionwe1987 - 10/12/2010 04:11:56 PM 1272 Views
Re: I'm so glad you're a mod! Setting great standards there... Sidious - 10/12/2010 04:35:23 PM 1339 Views
What? fionwe1987 - 10/12/2010 11:19:57 PM 1412 Views
Re: What? Sidious - 11/12/2010 07:20:19 AM 1350 Views
Oh boohoo... fionwe1987 - 11/12/2010 07:55:58 PM 1384 Views
Duh! Seriously, are you Elaida or something? Your logic is astounding. fionwe1987 - 10/12/2010 06:47:17 AM 1218 Views
Duh! Seriously, are you Elaida or something? Your logic is astounding. fionwe1987 - 10/12/2010 06:47:18 AM 1345 Views
which only tells us that Nynaeve is equal to the Forsaken. Has nothing to do with Egwene being darius_sedai - 10/12/2010 01:51:12 PM 1141 Views
Nynaeve has been channeling (albeit blocked) for close to 10 years darius_sedai - 10/12/2010 02:24:57 PM 1459 Views
Think about the logic of what you're proposing... Shannow - 10/12/2010 02:39:56 PM 1423 Views
It's what's in the friggin books! darius_sedai - 10/12/2010 03:33:08 PM 1345 Views
Duplicate post - deleted *NM* Shannow - 09/12/2010 08:19:05 PM 676 Views
Re: Yes. moratcorlm - 09/12/2010 07:49:12 PM 1375 Views
You're obviously a latecomer to this ongoing debate. Here's a recap... Shannow - 09/12/2010 08:03:51 PM 1492 Views
where this falls apart is that Daigian at a 10 is too weak darius_sedai - 09/12/2010 08:16:17 PM 1410 Views
Nope... Shannow - 09/12/2010 08:44:51 PM 1133 Views
now you are just force fitting quotes into what you want to say darius_sedai - 09/12/2010 09:29:20 PM 1261 Views
Nope... Shannow - 09/12/2010 09:42:58 PM 1324 Views
all of the girls were Forced! Nynaeve was already at least as strong as Moiraine in EoTW darius_sedai - 11/12/2010 08:04:02 PM 1361 Views
Re: all of the girls were Forced! Nynaeve was already at least as strong as Moiraine in EoTW sleepinghour - 11/12/2010 11:59:55 PM 1298 Views
that's the point I'm making darius_sedai - 12/12/2010 12:58:38 AM 1165 Views
I don't think Elayne was forced Zeratul - 12/12/2010 04:33:26 PM 1332 Views
I believe there is a quote from RJ that states they all were, but Egwene was held damane darius_sedai - 12/12/2010 04:43:29 PM 1113 Views
Re: I believe there is a quote from RJ that states they all were, but Egwene was held damane darius_sedai - 12/12/2010 04:46:50 PM 1357 Views
Thanks for the quote Zeratul - 12/12/2010 07:17:30 PM 1430 Views
perhaps the opportunity hasn't arisen? And of course it's politic to appologize to the Amyrlin darius_sedai - 12/12/2010 07:41:11 PM 1293 Views
Re: all of the girls were Forced! Nynaeve was already at least as strong as Moiraine in EoTW sleepinghour - 12/12/2010 08:04:21 PM 1320 Views
that's where I'm estimating Nynaeve being close to Siuan and Moiraine in EoTW darius_sedai - 12/12/2010 08:30:54 PM 1291 Views
Re: now you are just force fitting quotes into what you want to say sleepinghour - 10/12/2010 01:17:10 AM 1531 Views
nope darius_sedai - 10/12/2010 02:05:00 PM 1434 Views
Mesaana Sidious - 10/12/2010 04:43:07 AM 1233 Views
agreed darius_sedai - 10/12/2010 01:48:59 PM 1254 Views
Re: agreed Sidious - 10/12/2010 04:38:28 PM 1130 Views
very true, and I find it interesting that during the TAR battle Mesaana didn't bother darius_sedai - 10/12/2010 05:03:43 PM 1250 Views
Re: very true, and I find it interesting that during the TAR battle Mesaana didn't bother Sidious - 11/12/2010 07:22:54 AM 1406 Views
yes and no darius_sedai - 11/12/2010 03:47:28 PM 1344 Views
Re: You're obviously a latecomer to this ongoing debate. Here's a recap... moratcorlm - 10/12/2010 09:19:17 AM 1405 Views
OK. Here's the clear evidence of Dagian's, Moiraine's, Egwenes and Moghedien's comparative levels. Shannow - 10/12/2010 12:00:48 PM 1302 Views
"clear evidence" moratcorlm - 10/12/2010 01:27:01 PM 1329 Views
Laughable interpretation... Shannow - 10/12/2010 01:31:57 PM 1323 Views
Re: Laughable interpretation... moratcorlm - 10/12/2010 03:34:01 PM 1376 Views
Amys is clearly stronger than half Egwene's strength... fionwe1987 - 10/12/2010 04:27:30 PM 1268 Views
Doesn't the forkroot explain that? *NM* Gher - 10/12/2010 04:47:53 PM 878 Views
couple of thoughts here darius_sedai - 10/12/2010 08:01:44 PM 1319 Views
Re: couple of thoughts here fionwe1987 - 10/12/2010 11:27:19 PM 1248 Views
that's what I said! EDIT darius_sedai - 11/12/2010 04:03:59 PM 1162 Views
Well... fionwe1987 - 11/12/2010 07:58:38 PM 1332 Views
Katerine is a pain in the ass and Silviana wasn't about to risk only one woman holding that shield darius_sedai - 11/12/2010 08:26:29 PM 1182 Views
Leane was shielded by two sisters as well sleepinghour - 11/12/2010 11:14:08 PM 1217 Views
I think that's almost certainly a custom for women held in the open cells darius_sedai - 11/12/2010 11:22:12 PM 1248 Views
Re: I think that's almost certainly a custom for women held in the open cells sleepinghour - 12/12/2010 12:04:33 AM 1359 Views
I agree with that completely. darius_sedai - 12/12/2010 01:03:54 AM 1279 Views
Oh... so we dismiss all quotes from people we don't like? fionwe1987 - 12/12/2010 05:18:42 AM 1341 Views
re-read the section my friend. EDIT darius_sedai - 12/12/2010 03:58:28 PM 1255 Views
Dude... fionwe1987 - 12/12/2010 06:29:43 PM 1230 Views
did you read the quote? They discuss how much they gave her on the way to the Tower! darius_sedai - 12/12/2010 07:39:55 PM 1352 Views
Not one of those things answers my rather simple question... fionwe1987 - 13/12/2010 02:27:44 AM 1338 Views
because it's the first time Egwene has been dosed with Forkroot darius_sedai - 13/12/2010 03:55:18 AM 1242 Views
She knows but she doesn't know? fionwe1987 - 13/12/2010 05:35:55 AM 1344 Views
She knows that Nynaeve had told her it dampened her ability darius_sedai - 13/12/2010 05:13:23 PM 1239 Views
And she doesn't know any details... fionwe1987 - 13/12/2010 07:19:12 PM 1269 Views
this conversation is so pointless darius_sedai - 13/12/2010 10:43:35 PM 1152 Views
Yes. But since you continue to not answer the main question, necessary. fionwe1987 - 13/12/2010 11:24:24 PM 1158 Views
Re: Yes. But since you continue to not answer the main question, necessary. Sidious - 14/12/2010 11:06:55 AM 1160 Views
Of course its obvious now! fionwe1987 - 14/12/2010 12:44:59 PM 1348 Views
it was always obvious that to me. The first thing Egwene thinks is about what the drug does to her darius_sedai - 18/12/2010 05:07:38 AM 1204 Views
Shielding Sidious - 13/12/2010 08:01:19 PM 2710 Views
Practice. We do know that AS practice their weaves far more than WO darius_sedai - 13/12/2010 10:50:09 PM 1309 Views
Re: Practice. We do know that AS practice their weaves far more than WO Sidious - 14/12/2010 04:25:20 AM 1447 Views
There is, actually... fionwe1987 - 13/12/2010 11:28:42 PM 1204 Views
Meh Sidious - 14/12/2010 04:22:45 AM 1321 Views
Well... fionwe1987 - 14/12/2010 04:37:50 AM 1333 Views
Re: Well... Sidious - 14/12/2010 10:52:55 AM 1305 Views
Tell Darius that... fionwe1987 - 14/12/2010 12:47:19 PM 1244 Views
of course Katerine is redundant! 2 women of Barasine and Katerine's strength darius_sedai - 18/12/2010 05:00:50 AM 1227 Views
Re: Amys is clearly stronger than half Egwene's strength... Sidious - 11/12/2010 07:31:25 AM 1421 Views
um, Elayne was in the process of bleeding to death and then had just been Healed darius_sedai - 11/12/2010 03:50:27 PM 1341 Views
You forget... fionwe1987 - 11/12/2010 08:02:03 PM 1354 Views
astounding "evidence" darius_sedai - 10/12/2010 09:58:47 PM 1350 Views
Re: astounding "evidence" The_Archer - 11/12/2010 09:15:03 AM 1395 Views
thanks darius_sedai - 11/12/2010 03:54:54 PM 1511 Views
Re: thanks The_Archer - 12/12/2010 12:49:52 PM 1223 Views
We're not in disagreement for the most part darius_sedai - 12/12/2010 04:23:02 PM 1210 Views
Re: We're not in disagreement for the most part The_Archer - 12/12/2010 05:00:02 PM 1334 Views
Actually in the AoL all AS who went over (50%) were refered to as Forsaken darius_sedai - 12/12/2010 05:13:46 PM 1325 Views
Re: Actually in the AoL all AS who went over (50%) were refered to as Forsaken The_Archer - 12/12/2010 06:35:02 PM 1324 Views
All of the AS who went over to the DO refered to themselves as the Chosen darius_sedai - 12/12/2010 07:50:59 PM 1309 Views
Re: All of the AS who went over to the DO refered to themselves as the Chosen The_Archer - 12/12/2010 11:05:58 PM 1362 Views
Re: All of the AS who went over to the DO refered to themselves as the Chosen The_Archer - 12/12/2010 11:11:29 PM 1297 Views
Re: All of the AS who went over to the DO refered to themselves as the Chosen The_Archer - 12/12/2010 11:14:47 PM 1330 Views
I don't get the logic here... fionwe1987 - 09/12/2010 09:41:18 PM 1350 Views
which was one of my first thoughts in reading the scene! *NM* darius_sedai - 09/12/2010 09:43:54 PM 906 Views
It doubles her strength. Nynaeve is only 50% stronger. So she only needs half of it to match Nynaeve Shannow - 09/12/2010 09:46:42 PM 1285 Views
And...? fionwe1987 - 09/12/2010 09:51:57 PM 1300 Views
Personally, I thought it had something to do with not harming the babies. Shannow - 09/12/2010 10:01:10 PM 1226 Views
That was my interpretation too Sidious - 10/12/2010 04:36:38 AM 1260 Views
Re: That was my interpretation too moratcorlm - 10/12/2010 09:31:12 AM 1435 Views
what books are you reading? she's absolutely convinced until that scene darius_sedai - 10/12/2010 04:12:34 PM 1364 Views
The oaths proposal is after the jailhouse break in the timeline Zeratul - 10/12/2010 04:31:12 PM 1246 Views
*Double post, please delete* *NM* Zeratul - 10/12/2010 04:35:54 PM 761 Views
You are correct! So clearly worry about the babies was not a reason to not draw more darius_sedai - 10/12/2010 05:05:30 PM 1261 Views
And... fionwe1987 - 10/12/2010 04:32:28 PM 1266 Views
Re: what books are you reading? she's absolutely convinced until that scene Sidious - 10/12/2010 04:41:25 PM 1280 Views
Re: what books are you reading? she's absolutely convinced until that scene moratcorlm - 10/12/2010 05:02:10 PM 1258 Views
and as a poster above points out the scene is AFTER she's stabbed darius_sedai - 10/12/2010 05:07:17 PM 1302 Views
Yes, I did know that. moratcorlm - 11/12/2010 04:06:00 PM 1303 Views
meant that response to go to Sidious ... sorry! darius_sedai - 11/12/2010 08:44:40 PM 1348 Views
Oops. *NM* moratcorlm - 10/12/2010 07:15:57 PM 821 Views
Re: More evidence that Elayne is much weaker than the Forsaken The_Archer - 10/12/2010 08:22:21 PM 1227 Views
Re: More evidence that Elayne is much weaker than the Forsaken sleepinghour - 10/12/2010 08:33:25 PM 1307 Views
We have very little to go on with the FS strengths... darius_sedai - 10/12/2010 09:04:33 PM 1395 Views
Re: More evidence that Elayne is much weaker than the Forsaken The_Archer - 10/12/2010 09:12:12 PM 1168 Views
they can actually sense both which is how Elayne knows Nynaeve is not at full potential darius_sedai - 10/12/2010 09:22:35 PM 1328 Views
Re: More evidence that Elayne is much weaker than the Forsaken The_Archer - 10/12/2010 09:31:13 PM 1354 Views
Please note that Nynaeve has commented every time she's been around darius_sedai - 10/12/2010 10:08:16 PM 1268 Views
Re: Please note that Nynaeve has commented every time she's been around The_Archer - 10/12/2010 10:50:32 PM 1339 Views
It's more than just fear of Moridin that makes her choose an attack from such a distance darius_sedai - 10/12/2010 11:10:57 PM 1250 Views
Re: More evidence that Elayne is much weaker than the Forsaken sleepinghour - 10/12/2010 10:50:20 PM 1334 Views
Re: More evidence that Elayne is much weaker than the Forsaken Sidious - 11/12/2010 07:29:30 AM 1495 Views
Help im new! The_Archer - 13/12/2010 07:41:04 PM 1373 Views
Re: More evidence you haven't been paying attention. The Angry Druid - 13/12/2010 09:56:45 PM 1486 Views
Re: More evidence you haven't been paying attention. The_Archer - 13/12/2010 10:50:25 PM 1264 Views
How is it that this the longest thread on this board? Is it even relevant in the least? *NM* Lord Haart - 18/12/2010 02:53:22 PM 848 Views
Re: How is it that this the longest thread on this board? Is it even relevant in the least? Sidious - 18/12/2010 08:21:24 PM 1200 Views
Look at the topic. As if we needed evidence that Elayne is weaker than the Foresaken. Lord Haart - 19/12/2010 04:41:25 AM 1227 Views
you misread the topic Sidious - 19/12/2010 05:30:26 AM 1358 Views
But the debate is moronic because... fionwe1987 - 19/12/2010 05:43:07 AM 1250 Views
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