I think that RJ's statement that the strongest man and strongest women were equal...
RugbyPlayingAshaman Send a noteboard - 10/12/2010 03:23:12 PM
I always thought that RJ's statement that the strongest man and strongest women would be effectively equal, basically stated that there is a limit of how useful being stronger in the Power could be. Nynaeve may be able to wield much more of saidar than Egwene and Elayne, but effectively, they have the potential to do the same thing, Talents and skills excluded.
So while Nynaeve may be a bonfire next to the candles of Elayne and Egwene, the other Aes Sedai might very well be muted sparks, but any two or three of those sparks could still hold these stronger woman with a Shield because a Shield is a feat that is a combination of strength, skill, experience and the situation.
Egwene, Elayne and Nynaeve, despite being weaker than Rand, have skills that make them effectively more powerful, even if they can't hold as much Power. Nynaeve's Talent for Healing exceeds Rands' middling abilities by an extremely large margin, Egwene is a Dreamer and can create cuendillar - things that Rand can't do, and Elayne can create ter'angreal, and potentially angreal - once again placing her in a different position relative to him that makes her much more powerful even if "weaker" in the Power.
Even further, while Rand could defeat a Shield held by six or so average female channelers, I always had the feeling that he would be in a lot of trouble if Egwene, Elayne, Aviendha or Egwene, Elayne and Nynaeve came against him, despite him being able to wield more Power than each singularly and potentially even more while they are in a Circle because the advantage of a Circle has more to do with accuracy and fine control versus boosting your strength.
"Raw strength" just doesn't take into account the different skills and Talents that effectively put many channelers on higher levels of power than their "raw strength" might allow, and is probably why the highest ranked Forsaken seem evenly matched to the extent that raw strength is rarely even discussed besides as one factor amidst a range of them.
So while Nynaeve may be a bonfire next to the candles of Elayne and Egwene, the other Aes Sedai might very well be muted sparks, but any two or three of those sparks could still hold these stronger woman with a Shield because a Shield is a feat that is a combination of strength, skill, experience and the situation.
Egwene, Elayne and Nynaeve, despite being weaker than Rand, have skills that make them effectively more powerful, even if they can't hold as much Power. Nynaeve's Talent for Healing exceeds Rands' middling abilities by an extremely large margin, Egwene is a Dreamer and can create cuendillar - things that Rand can't do, and Elayne can create ter'angreal, and potentially angreal - once again placing her in a different position relative to him that makes her much more powerful even if "weaker" in the Power.
Even further, while Rand could defeat a Shield held by six or so average female channelers, I always had the feeling that he would be in a lot of trouble if Egwene, Elayne, Aviendha or Egwene, Elayne and Nynaeve came against him, despite him being able to wield more Power than each singularly and potentially even more while they are in a Circle because the advantage of a Circle has more to do with accuracy and fine control versus boosting your strength.
"Raw strength" just doesn't take into account the different skills and Talents that effectively put many channelers on higher levels of power than their "raw strength" might allow, and is probably why the highest ranked Forsaken seem evenly matched to the extent that raw strength is rarely even discussed besides as one factor amidst a range of them.
"Those who think they have no time for bodily exercise will sooner or later have to find time for illness."
More evidence that Elayne is much weaker than the Forsaken
- 09/12/2010 03:45:27 PM
3332 Views
Yes.
- 09/12/2010 04:39:58 PM
1660 Views
No.
- 09/12/2010 05:34:57 PM
1492 Views
Actually...exponential or at least non-linear makes alot of sense to me
- 09/12/2010 06:27:29 PM
1410 Views
Nope. Then Rand would be able to crush 13 Aes Sedai with ease.
- 09/12/2010 06:32:53 PM
1629 Views
Three things:
- 09/12/2010 06:47:30 PM
1445 Views
That quote is incorrect as it contradicts all other evidence from later books...
- 09/12/2010 06:51:02 PM
1421 Views
If strength isn't linear and on a steep enough curve that could work.
- 09/12/2010 07:22:24 PM
1455 Views
I think that RJ's statement that the strongest man and strongest women were equal...
- 10/12/2010 03:23:12 PM
1350 Views
I wasn't aware this was an issue?
- 09/12/2010 04:45:02 PM
1453 Views
I just hope aMoL finally reveals who's going to be the Dragon Reborn...these lesser debates can hang *NM*
- 09/12/2010 05:26:37 PM
890 Views
not really
- 09/12/2010 04:46:42 PM
1437 Views
and you'll note that none of the angreal are considered particularly strong
- 09/12/2010 04:48:14 PM
1365 Views
She probably weaved them separately on account of being pregnant *NM*
- 09/12/2010 04:56:12 PM
867 Views
Pregnancy seems to be interfere with her ability to grasp the power
- 09/12/2010 05:06:15 PM
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I don't know if it's a more complex CHANNELING undertaking, though
- 09/12/2010 05:42:57 PM
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I don't have the book handy, but she talks about the level of complexity
- 09/12/2010 05:45:52 PM
1440 Views
hmm, but we still don't know if it's the weaves or the process that is so complex
- 09/12/2010 06:28:14 PM
1237 Views
Well according to Monaella it makes it harder to Channel, but from Elayne's POV
- 09/12/2010 06:52:55 PM
1347 Views
We never really get a feel for their relative strengths
- 09/12/2010 05:51:38 PM
1230 Views
Yes. In PoD Aviendha states that the woman-wrapped-in-hair angreal almost doubles her strength...
- 09/12/2010 06:30:41 PM
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you have the wrong angreal and the wrong strength
- 09/12/2010 07:07:18 PM
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Nope. You are the one whose got the wrong angreal...
- 09/12/2010 07:15:38 PM
1172 Views
where is that quote my friend?
- 09/12/2010 08:07:50 PM
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PoD: The Breaking Storm
- 09/12/2010 08:16:58 PM
1200 Views
Ah yes, ... "almost 2x as much" still doesn't support your assertion that Nyn is 50% above Elayne
- 09/12/2010 08:20:37 PM
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That's a gross skewing of what that sentence means...
- 09/12/2010 09:05:05 PM
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Don't be absurd...
- 09/12/2010 09:21:00 PM
1331 Views
she does not say that! she says Moghedien could kill her before she could react. so could Daigian
- 09/12/2010 09:34:50 PM
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"The only Aes Sedai who could hope to match one of the Forsaken was in Ebou Dar..."
- 09/12/2010 09:44:25 PM
1420 Views
And yet...
- 09/12/2010 09:48:34 PM
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No, Egwene does NOT think she can defeat Mesaana in a One Power battle...
- 09/12/2010 09:59:35 PM
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Here are te quotes...
- 09/12/2010 10:10:09 PM
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Did you not read the quote above, made by Egwene in the heat of battle with Mesaana?
- 09/12/2010 10:34:05 PM
1379 Views
It might interest you to know that that was Katerine!
- 10/12/2010 12:15:51 AM
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Oh nonsense
- 10/12/2010 04:43:44 AM
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But that's his point.
- 10/12/2010 06:01:59 AM
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its a useless point
- 10/12/2010 10:11:00 AM
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I'm so glad you're a mod! Setting great standards there...
- 10/12/2010 04:11:56 PM
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Yes, utterly useless...
- 10/12/2010 11:46:15 AM
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Dude, you need to re-read the books...
- 10/12/2010 04:15:11 PM
1244 Views
he means Sheriam, but your points still hold true
- 10/12/2010 08:19:16 PM
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Re: he means Sheriam, but your points still hold true
- 11/12/2010 07:21:49 AM
1323 Views
potentially, but Mesaana later turns up with BA using the 19 stolen ter'angreal.
- 11/12/2010 03:41:41 PM
1236 Views
I'm so glad you're a mod! Setting great standards there...
- 10/12/2010 04:11:56 PM
1227 Views
Re:
I'm so glad you're a mod! Setting great standards there...
- 10/12/2010 04:35:23 PM
1303 Views
I'm so glad you're a mod! Setting great standards there...
- 10/12/2010 04:35:23 PM
1303 Views
Duh! Seriously, are you Elaida or something? Your logic is astounding.
- 10/12/2010 06:47:17 AM
1182 Views
Duh! Seriously, are you Elaida or something? Your logic is astounding.
- 10/12/2010 06:47:18 AM
1307 Views
which only tells us that Nynaeve is equal to the Forsaken. Has nothing to do with Egwene being
- 10/12/2010 01:51:12 PM
1106 Views
Nynaeve has been channeling (albeit blocked) for close to 10 years
- 10/12/2010 02:24:57 PM
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Re: Yes.
- 09/12/2010 07:49:12 PM
1333 Views
You're obviously a latecomer to this ongoing debate. Here's a recap...
- 09/12/2010 08:03:51 PM
1456 Views
where this falls apart is that Daigian at a 10 is too weak
- 09/12/2010 08:16:17 PM
1371 Views
Nope...
- 09/12/2010 08:44:51 PM
1100 Views
now you are just force fitting quotes into what you want to say
- 09/12/2010 09:29:20 PM
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- 09/12/2010 09:29:20 PM
1210 Views
Nope...
- 09/12/2010 09:42:58 PM
1284 Views
all of the girls were Forced! Nynaeve was already at least as strong as Moiraine in EoTW
- 11/12/2010 08:04:02 PM
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Re: all of the girls were Forced! Nynaeve was already at least as strong as Moiraine in EoTW
- 11/12/2010 11:59:55 PM
1255 Views
I don't think Elayne was forced
- 12/12/2010 04:33:26 PM
1285 Views
I believe there is a quote from RJ that states they all were, but Egwene was held damane
- 12/12/2010 04:43:29 PM
1069 Views
Re: I believe there is a quote from RJ that states they all were, but Egwene was held damane
- 12/12/2010 04:46:50 PM
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Thanks for the quote
- 12/12/2010 07:17:30 PM
1388 Views
perhaps the opportunity hasn't arisen? And of course it's politic to appologize to the Amyrlin
- 12/12/2010 07:41:11 PM
1258 Views
- 12/12/2010 07:41:11 PM
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Re: all of the girls were Forced! Nynaeve was already at least as strong as Moiraine in EoTW
- 12/12/2010 08:04:21 PM
1275 Views
that's where I'm estimating Nynaeve being close to Siuan and Moiraine in EoTW
- 12/12/2010 08:30:54 PM
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Re: now you are just force fitting quotes into what you want to say
- 10/12/2010 01:17:10 AM
1482 Views
- 10/12/2010 01:17:10 AM
1482 Views
Mesaana
- 10/12/2010 04:43:07 AM
1172 Views
agreed
- 10/12/2010 01:48:59 PM
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Re: agreed
- 10/12/2010 04:38:28 PM
1100 Views
very true, and I find it interesting that during the TAR battle Mesaana didn't bother
- 10/12/2010 05:03:43 PM
1196 Views
Re: very true, and I find it interesting that during the TAR battle Mesaana didn't bother
- 11/12/2010 07:22:54 AM
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Re: You're obviously a latecomer to this ongoing debate. Here's a recap...
- 10/12/2010 09:19:17 AM
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OK. Here's the clear evidence of Dagian's, Moiraine's, Egwenes and Moghedien's comparative levels.
- 10/12/2010 12:00:48 PM
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"clear evidence"
- 10/12/2010 01:27:01 PM
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Laughable interpretation...
- 10/12/2010 01:31:57 PM
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Amys is clearly stronger than half Egwene's strength...
- 10/12/2010 04:27:30 PM
1239 Views
couple of thoughts here
- 10/12/2010 08:01:44 PM
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Re: couple of thoughts here
- 10/12/2010 11:27:19 PM
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that's what I said! EDIT
- 11/12/2010 04:03:59 PM
1122 Views
Well...
- 11/12/2010 07:58:38 PM
1303 Views
Katerine is a pain in the ass and Silviana wasn't about to risk only one woman holding that shield
- 11/12/2010 08:26:29 PM
1150 Views
Leane was shielded by two sisters as well
- 11/12/2010 11:14:08 PM
1183 Views
I think that's almost certainly a custom for women held in the open cells
- 11/12/2010 11:22:12 PM
1213 Views
Re: I think that's almost certainly a custom for women held in the open cells
- 12/12/2010 12:04:33 AM
1312 Views
Oh... so we dismiss all quotes from people we don't like?
- 12/12/2010 05:18:42 AM
1310 Views
re-read the section my friend. EDIT
- 12/12/2010 03:58:28 PM
1225 Views
Dude...
- 12/12/2010 06:29:43 PM
1184 Views
did you read the quote? They discuss how much they gave her on the way to the Tower!
- 12/12/2010 07:39:55 PM
1321 Views
Not one of those things answers my rather simple question...
- 13/12/2010 02:27:44 AM
1292 Views
because it's the first time Egwene has been dosed with Forkroot
- 13/12/2010 03:55:18 AM
1204 Views
She knows but she doesn't know?
- 13/12/2010 05:35:55 AM
1300 Views
She knows that Nynaeve had told her it dampened her ability
- 13/12/2010 05:13:23 PM
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And she doesn't know any details...
- 13/12/2010 07:19:12 PM
1241 Views
this conversation is so pointless
- 13/12/2010 10:43:35 PM
1106 Views
Yes. But since you continue to not answer the main question, necessary.
- 13/12/2010 11:24:24 PM
1109 Views
Re: Yes. But since you continue to not answer the main question, necessary.
- 14/12/2010 11:06:55 AM
1118 Views
Of course its obvious now!
- 14/12/2010 12:44:59 PM
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it was always obvious that to me. The first thing Egwene thinks is about what the drug does to her
- 18/12/2010 05:07:38 AM
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Shielding
- 13/12/2010 08:01:19 PM
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Practice. We do know that AS practice their weaves far more than WO
- 13/12/2010 10:50:09 PM
1266 Views
Re: Practice. We do know that AS practice their weaves far more than WO
- 14/12/2010 04:25:20 AM
1410 Views
There is, actually...
- 13/12/2010 11:28:42 PM
1167 Views
Meh
- 14/12/2010 04:22:45 AM
1277 Views
Well...
- 14/12/2010 04:37:50 AM
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Re: Well...
- 14/12/2010 10:52:55 AM
1267 Views
of course Katerine is redundant! 2 women of Barasine and Katerine's strength
- 18/12/2010 05:00:50 AM
1189 Views
Re: Amys is clearly stronger than half Egwene's strength...
- 11/12/2010 07:31:25 AM
1390 Views
um, Elayne was in the process of bleeding to death and then had just been Healed
- 11/12/2010 03:50:27 PM
1302 Views
astounding "evidence"
- 10/12/2010 09:58:47 PM
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Re: astounding "evidence"
- 11/12/2010 09:15:03 AM
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thanks
- 11/12/2010 03:54:54 PM
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Re: thanks
- 12/12/2010 12:49:52 PM
1182 Views
We're not in disagreement for the most part
- 12/12/2010 04:23:02 PM
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Re: We're not in disagreement for the most part
- 12/12/2010 05:00:02 PM
1273 Views
Actually in the AoL all AS who went over (50%) were refered to as Forsaken
- 12/12/2010 05:13:46 PM
1287 Views
Re: Actually in the AoL all AS who went over (50%) were refered to as Forsaken
- 12/12/2010 06:35:02 PM
1267 Views
All of the AS who went over to the DO refered to themselves as the Chosen
- 12/12/2010 07:50:59 PM
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Re: All of the AS who went over to the DO refered to themselves as the Chosen
- 12/12/2010 11:05:58 PM
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Re: All of the AS who went over to the DO refered to themselves as the Chosen
- 12/12/2010 11:11:29 PM
1234 Views
Re: All of the AS who went over to the DO refered to themselves as the Chosen
- 12/12/2010 11:14:47 PM
1290 Views
I don't get the logic here...
- 09/12/2010 09:41:18 PM
1322 Views
It doubles her strength. Nynaeve is only 50% stronger. So she only needs half of it to match Nynaeve
- 09/12/2010 09:46:42 PM
1247 Views
And...?
- 09/12/2010 09:51:57 PM
1259 Views
Personally, I thought it had something to do with not harming the babies.
- 09/12/2010 10:01:10 PM
1187 Views
That was my interpretation too
- 10/12/2010 04:36:38 AM
1221 Views
what books are you reading? she's absolutely convinced until that scene
- 10/12/2010 04:12:34 PM
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The oaths proposal is after the jailhouse break in the timeline
- 10/12/2010 04:31:12 PM
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You are correct! So clearly worry about the babies was not a reason to not draw more
- 10/12/2010 05:05:30 PM
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Re: what books are you reading? she's absolutely convinced until that scene
- 10/12/2010 04:41:25 PM
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Re: what books are you reading? she's absolutely convinced until that scene
- 10/12/2010 05:02:10 PM
1228 Views
and as a poster above points out the scene is AFTER she's stabbed
- 10/12/2010 05:07:17 PM
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Re: More evidence that Elayne is much weaker than the Forsaken
- 10/12/2010 08:22:21 PM
1185 Views
Re: More evidence that Elayne is much weaker than the Forsaken
- 10/12/2010 08:33:25 PM
1258 Views
Re: More evidence that Elayne is much weaker than the Forsaken
- 10/12/2010 09:12:12 PM
1137 Views
they can actually sense both which is how Elayne knows Nynaeve is not at full potential
- 10/12/2010 09:22:35 PM
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Re: More evidence that Elayne is much weaker than the Forsaken
- 10/12/2010 09:31:13 PM
1323 Views
Please note that Nynaeve has commented every time she's been around
- 10/12/2010 10:08:16 PM
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Re: Please note that Nynaeve has commented every time she's been around
- 10/12/2010 10:50:32 PM
1308 Views
It's more than just fear of Moridin that makes her choose an attack from such a distance
- 10/12/2010 11:10:57 PM
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How is it that this the longest thread on this board? Is it even relevant in the least? *NM*
- 18/12/2010 02:53:22 PM
830 Views
Re: How is it that this the longest thread on this board? Is it even relevant in the least?
- 18/12/2010 08:21:24 PM
1161 Views
Look at the topic. As if we needed evidence that Elayne is weaker than the Foresaken.
- 19/12/2010 04:41:25 AM
1194 Views

*NM*