The fact that Aviendha knows so little about One Power mechanics at this point in time - including linking advantages, linking losses etc - PROVES that all she could have been referring to with that comment was raw strength.
Your interpretation that it means "combined" as opposed to – as she says – "together" relies on her thinking of something like linking, where, irrespective of loss, the "combination" has access to the combined raw power of both. In this interpretation, (A+M)<E.What she actually says, "Amys and Melaine together", is not represented by (A+M) vs. E, but rather by (A vs. E)+(M vs. E), an altogether different dynamic.
Consider, for instance, that Moghedien defeated both Nynaeve and Elayne in Tanchico (who “combined” well exceed her strength). Liandrin and Rianna defeated Nynaeve in Tear, and Amico and Joiya defeated Elayne and Egwene, in both cases the less powerful victorious. And Mylen is able to hold shields on Teslyn, Joline, and Edesina simultaneously (KOD36), though “combined” they certainly exceed her in strength, as Berowin is able to hold the far stronger Nynaeve (ACOS23). More? Nynaeve can hold a shield on the equally powerful Moghedien, or later Talaan, but she could not defeat either of them by simply slamming the shield down; she had to, like the weaker victors above, create a tactical advantage by distracting them in some way first.
Now, here's where your problem is. We know (ACOS21) that Nynaeve (you say 80) is not strong enough to shield Elayne (50) when she is holding saidar. So how can a 50 (Egwene) overpower the “combined” "raw strength" of two women – average, and above average for Aes Sedai, but let’s say they’re both halfway between Daigian and Moiraine, at (you say) 20 apiece, “combining” for a "raw strength" of 40? Your position is not logically compatible with the text.
What this then must mean is that Egwene does not simply shield them with "raw strength", but defeats them using tactics to create a situation where her advantage can overcome one, and then the other. However well-coordinated, Amys and Melaine are each individually at a disadvantage compared to Egwene; two one-pound axeheads cannot chop at the tree of Egwene’s defenses as effectively as one two-pound axehead.
Once the understanding that Aviendha’s theoretical battle refers to (A vs. E)+(M vs. E) has been reached, you can comprehend that the posited victory does not mean much more than that Egwene is more powerful than either of them. Which we already knew.
All you're basically saying is that you do not accept that statement by Aviendha, because it does not fit with your picture of how the strength ladder should look.
I am saying precisely that, if the statement means what you take it to mean. There are many contradictory statements. You cherry-picked this one because it is the only one which fits your picture of how the "strength ladder" should look.
Provisional calendar for Towers of Midnight: https://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=0ApFWTyzG9G_UdHZCUjQzVGNLeUJyMkUycXkzQlExSFE&output=html
This message last edited by moratcorlm on 10/12/2010 at 03:42:37 PM
More evidence that Elayne is much weaker than the Forsaken
- 09/12/2010 03:45:27 PM
3408 Views
Yes.
- 09/12/2010 04:39:58 PM
1743 Views
No.
- 09/12/2010 05:34:57 PM
1574 Views
Actually...exponential or at least non-linear makes alot of sense to me
- 09/12/2010 06:27:29 PM
1485 Views
Nope. Then Rand would be able to crush 13 Aes Sedai with ease.
- 09/12/2010 06:32:53 PM
1685 Views
Three things:
- 09/12/2010 06:47:30 PM
1525 Views
That quote is incorrect as it contradicts all other evidence from later books...
- 09/12/2010 06:51:02 PM
1490 Views
If strength isn't linear and on a steep enough curve that could work.
- 09/12/2010 07:22:24 PM
1537 Views
I think that RJ's statement that the strongest man and strongest women were equal...
- 10/12/2010 03:23:12 PM
1416 Views
I wasn't aware this was an issue?
- 09/12/2010 04:45:02 PM
1538 Views
I just hope aMoL finally reveals who's going to be the Dragon Reborn...these lesser debates can hang *NM*
- 09/12/2010 05:26:37 PM
929 Views
not really
- 09/12/2010 04:46:42 PM
1516 Views
and you'll note that none of the angreal are considered particularly strong
- 09/12/2010 04:48:14 PM
1439 Views
She probably weaved them separately on account of being pregnant *NM*
- 09/12/2010 04:56:12 PM
907 Views
Pregnancy seems to be interfere with her ability to grasp the power
- 09/12/2010 05:06:15 PM
1488 Views
I don't know if it's a more complex CHANNELING undertaking, though
- 09/12/2010 05:42:57 PM
1407 Views
I don't have the book handy, but she talks about the level of complexity
- 09/12/2010 05:45:52 PM
1518 Views
hmm, but we still don't know if it's the weaves or the process that is so complex
- 09/12/2010 06:28:14 PM
1331 Views
Well according to Monaella it makes it harder to Channel, but from Elayne's POV
- 09/12/2010 06:52:55 PM
1433 Views
We never really get a feel for their relative strengths
- 09/12/2010 05:51:38 PM
1304 Views
Yes. In PoD Aviendha states that the woman-wrapped-in-hair angreal almost doubles her strength...
- 09/12/2010 06:30:41 PM
1480 Views
you have the wrong angreal and the wrong strength
- 09/12/2010 07:07:18 PM
1431 Views
Nope. You are the one whose got the wrong angreal...
- 09/12/2010 07:15:38 PM
1260 Views
where is that quote my friend?
- 09/12/2010 08:07:50 PM
1330 Views
PoD: The Breaking Storm
- 09/12/2010 08:16:58 PM
1285 Views
Ah yes, ... "almost 2x as much" still doesn't support your assertion that Nyn is 50% above Elayne
- 09/12/2010 08:20:37 PM
1394 Views
That's a gross skewing of what that sentence means...
- 09/12/2010 09:05:05 PM
1391 Views
Don't be absurd...
- 09/12/2010 09:21:00 PM
1398 Views
she does not say that! she says Moghedien could kill her before she could react. so could Daigian
- 09/12/2010 09:34:50 PM
1466 Views
"The only Aes Sedai who could hope to match one of the Forsaken was in Ebou Dar..."
- 09/12/2010 09:44:25 PM
1497 Views
And yet...
- 09/12/2010 09:48:34 PM
1395 Views
No, Egwene does NOT think she can defeat Mesaana in a One Power battle...
- 09/12/2010 09:59:35 PM
1645 Views
Here are te quotes...
- 09/12/2010 10:10:09 PM
1430 Views
Did you not read the quote above, made by Egwene in the heat of battle with Mesaana?
- 09/12/2010 10:34:05 PM
1455 Views
It might interest you to know that that was Katerine!
- 10/12/2010 12:15:51 AM
1233 Views
Oh nonsense
- 10/12/2010 04:43:44 AM
1341 Views
But that's his point.
- 10/12/2010 06:01:59 AM
1334 Views
its a useless point
- 10/12/2010 10:11:00 AM
1411 Views
I'm so glad you're a mod! Setting great standards there...
- 10/12/2010 04:11:56 PM
1314 Views
Yes, utterly useless...
- 10/12/2010 11:46:15 AM
1386 Views
Dude, you need to re-read the books...
- 10/12/2010 04:15:11 PM
1324 Views
he means Sheriam, but your points still hold true
- 10/12/2010 08:19:16 PM
1337 Views
Re: he means Sheriam, but your points still hold true
- 11/12/2010 07:21:49 AM
1402 Views
potentially, but Mesaana later turns up with BA using the 19 stolen ter'angreal.
- 11/12/2010 03:41:41 PM
1308 Views
I'm so glad you're a mod! Setting great standards there...
- 10/12/2010 04:11:56 PM
1314 Views
Re:
I'm so glad you're a mod! Setting great standards there...
- 10/12/2010 04:35:23 PM
1378 Views
I'm so glad you're a mod! Setting great standards there...
- 10/12/2010 04:35:23 PM
1378 Views
Duh! Seriously, are you Elaida or something? Your logic is astounding.
- 10/12/2010 06:47:17 AM
1250 Views
Duh! Seriously, are you Elaida or something? Your logic is astounding.
- 10/12/2010 06:47:18 AM
1384 Views
which only tells us that Nynaeve is equal to the Forsaken. Has nothing to do with Egwene being
- 10/12/2010 01:51:12 PM
1178 Views
Nynaeve has been channeling (albeit blocked) for close to 10 years
- 10/12/2010 02:24:57 PM
1494 Views
Re: Yes.
- 09/12/2010 07:49:12 PM
1415 Views
You're obviously a latecomer to this ongoing debate. Here's a recap...
- 09/12/2010 08:03:51 PM
1532 Views
where this falls apart is that Daigian at a 10 is too weak
- 09/12/2010 08:16:17 PM
1448 Views
Nope...
- 09/12/2010 08:44:51 PM
1170 Views
now you are just force fitting quotes into what you want to say
- 09/12/2010 09:29:20 PM
1307 Views
- 09/12/2010 09:29:20 PM
1307 Views
Nope...
- 09/12/2010 09:42:58 PM
1350 Views
all of the girls were Forced! Nynaeve was already at least as strong as Moiraine in EoTW
- 11/12/2010 08:04:02 PM
1395 Views
Re: all of the girls were Forced! Nynaeve was already at least as strong as Moiraine in EoTW
- 11/12/2010 11:59:55 PM
1326 Views
I don't think Elayne was forced
- 12/12/2010 04:33:26 PM
1361 Views
I believe there is a quote from RJ that states they all were, but Egwene was held damane
- 12/12/2010 04:43:29 PM
1146 Views
Re: I believe there is a quote from RJ that states they all were, but Egwene was held damane
- 12/12/2010 04:46:50 PM
1386 Views
Thanks for the quote
- 12/12/2010 07:17:30 PM
1466 Views
perhaps the opportunity hasn't arisen? And of course it's politic to appologize to the Amyrlin
- 12/12/2010 07:41:11 PM
1326 Views
- 12/12/2010 07:41:11 PM
1326 Views
Re: all of the girls were Forced! Nynaeve was already at least as strong as Moiraine in EoTW
- 12/12/2010 08:04:21 PM
1362 Views
that's where I'm estimating Nynaeve being close to Siuan and Moiraine in EoTW
- 12/12/2010 08:30:54 PM
1323 Views
Re: now you are just force fitting quotes into what you want to say
- 10/12/2010 01:17:10 AM
1573 Views
- 10/12/2010 01:17:10 AM
1573 Views
Mesaana
- 10/12/2010 04:43:07 AM
1270 Views
agreed
- 10/12/2010 01:48:59 PM
1286 Views
Re: agreed
- 10/12/2010 04:38:28 PM
1168 Views
very true, and I find it interesting that during the TAR battle Mesaana didn't bother
- 10/12/2010 05:03:43 PM
1288 Views
Re: very true, and I find it interesting that during the TAR battle Mesaana didn't bother
- 11/12/2010 07:22:54 AM
1436 Views
Re: You're obviously a latecomer to this ongoing debate. Here's a recap...
- 10/12/2010 09:19:17 AM
1437 Views
OK. Here's the clear evidence of Dagian's, Moiraine's, Egwenes and Moghedien's comparative levels.
- 10/12/2010 12:00:48 PM
1328 Views
"clear evidence"
- 10/12/2010 01:27:01 PM
1366 Views
Laughable interpretation...
- 10/12/2010 01:31:57 PM
1355 Views
Re: Laughable interpretation...
- 10/12/2010 03:34:01 PM
1409 Views
Amys is clearly stronger than half Egwene's strength...
- 10/12/2010 04:27:30 PM
1306 Views
couple of thoughts here
- 10/12/2010 08:01:44 PM
1352 Views
Re: couple of thoughts here
- 10/12/2010 11:27:19 PM
1282 Views
that's what I said! EDIT
- 11/12/2010 04:03:59 PM
1198 Views
Well...
- 11/12/2010 07:58:38 PM
1364 Views
Katerine is a pain in the ass and Silviana wasn't about to risk only one woman holding that shield
- 11/12/2010 08:26:29 PM
1220 Views
Leane was shielded by two sisters as well
- 11/12/2010 11:14:08 PM
1251 Views
I think that's almost certainly a custom for women held in the open cells
- 11/12/2010 11:22:12 PM
1280 Views
Re: I think that's almost certainly a custom for women held in the open cells
- 12/12/2010 12:04:33 AM
1390 Views
Oh... so we dismiss all quotes from people we don't like?
- 12/12/2010 05:18:42 AM
1372 Views
re-read the section my friend. EDIT
- 12/12/2010 03:58:28 PM
1315 Views
Dude...
- 12/12/2010 06:29:43 PM
1286 Views
did you read the quote? They discuss how much they gave her on the way to the Tower!
- 12/12/2010 07:39:55 PM
1389 Views
Not one of those things answers my rather simple question...
- 13/12/2010 02:27:44 AM
1367 Views
because it's the first time Egwene has been dosed with Forkroot
- 13/12/2010 03:55:18 AM
1276 Views
She knows but she doesn't know?
- 13/12/2010 05:35:55 AM
1366 Views
She knows that Nynaeve had told her it dampened her ability
- 13/12/2010 05:13:23 PM
1282 Views
And she doesn't know any details...
- 13/12/2010 07:19:12 PM
1309 Views
this conversation is so pointless
- 13/12/2010 10:43:35 PM
1187 Views
Yes. But since you continue to not answer the main question, necessary.
- 13/12/2010 11:24:24 PM
1191 Views
Re: Yes. But since you continue to not answer the main question, necessary.
- 14/12/2010 11:06:55 AM
1210 Views
Of course its obvious now!
- 14/12/2010 12:44:59 PM
1383 Views
it was always obvious that to me. The first thing Egwene thinks is about what the drug does to her
- 18/12/2010 05:07:38 AM
1243 Views
Shielding
- 13/12/2010 08:01:19 PM
2740 Views
Practice. We do know that AS practice their weaves far more than WO
- 13/12/2010 10:50:09 PM
1347 Views
Re: Practice. We do know that AS practice their weaves far more than WO
- 14/12/2010 04:25:20 AM
1489 Views
There is, actually...
- 13/12/2010 11:28:42 PM
1237 Views
Meh
- 14/12/2010 04:22:45 AM
1355 Views
Well...
- 14/12/2010 04:37:50 AM
1373 Views
Re: Well...
- 14/12/2010 10:52:55 AM
1336 Views
of course Katerine is redundant! 2 women of Barasine and Katerine's strength
- 18/12/2010 05:00:50 AM
1257 Views
Re: Amys is clearly stronger than half Egwene's strength...
- 11/12/2010 07:31:25 AM
1452 Views
um, Elayne was in the process of bleeding to death and then had just been Healed
- 11/12/2010 03:50:27 PM
1377 Views
astounding "evidence"
- 10/12/2010 09:58:47 PM
1384 Views
Re: astounding "evidence"
- 11/12/2010 09:15:03 AM
1436 Views
thanks
- 11/12/2010 03:54:54 PM
1547 Views
Re: thanks
- 12/12/2010 12:49:52 PM
1251 Views
We're not in disagreement for the most part
- 12/12/2010 04:23:02 PM
1251 Views
Re: We're not in disagreement for the most part
- 12/12/2010 05:00:02 PM
1370 Views
Actually in the AoL all AS who went over (50%) were refered to as Forsaken
- 12/12/2010 05:13:46 PM
1360 Views
Re: Actually in the AoL all AS who went over (50%) were refered to as Forsaken
- 12/12/2010 06:35:02 PM
1360 Views
All of the AS who went over to the DO refered to themselves as the Chosen
- 12/12/2010 07:50:59 PM
1339 Views
Re: All of the AS who went over to the DO refered to themselves as the Chosen
- 12/12/2010 11:05:58 PM
1410 Views
Re: All of the AS who went over to the DO refered to themselves as the Chosen
- 12/12/2010 11:11:29 PM
1349 Views
Re: All of the AS who went over to the DO refered to themselves as the Chosen
- 12/12/2010 11:14:47 PM
1367 Views
I don't get the logic here...
- 09/12/2010 09:41:18 PM
1388 Views
It doubles her strength. Nynaeve is only 50% stronger. So she only needs half of it to match Nynaeve
- 09/12/2010 09:46:42 PM
1320 Views
And...?
- 09/12/2010 09:51:57 PM
1331 Views
Personally, I thought it had something to do with not harming the babies.
- 09/12/2010 10:01:10 PM
1260 Views
That was my interpretation too
- 10/12/2010 04:36:38 AM
1301 Views
what books are you reading? she's absolutely convinced until that scene
- 10/12/2010 04:12:34 PM
1407 Views
The oaths proposal is after the jailhouse break in the timeline
- 10/12/2010 04:31:12 PM
1291 Views
You are correct! So clearly worry about the babies was not a reason to not draw more
- 10/12/2010 05:05:30 PM
1291 Views
Re: what books are you reading? she's absolutely convinced until that scene
- 10/12/2010 04:41:25 PM
1313 Views
Re: what books are you reading? she's absolutely convinced until that scene
- 10/12/2010 05:02:10 PM
1299 Views
and as a poster above points out the scene is AFTER she's stabbed
- 10/12/2010 05:07:17 PM
1343 Views
Re: More evidence that Elayne is much weaker than the Forsaken
- 10/12/2010 08:22:21 PM
1266 Views
Re: More evidence that Elayne is much weaker than the Forsaken
- 10/12/2010 08:33:25 PM
1348 Views
Re: More evidence that Elayne is much weaker than the Forsaken
- 10/12/2010 09:12:12 PM
1202 Views
they can actually sense both which is how Elayne knows Nynaeve is not at full potential
- 10/12/2010 09:22:35 PM
1368 Views
Re: More evidence that Elayne is much weaker than the Forsaken
- 10/12/2010 09:31:13 PM
1390 Views
Please note that Nynaeve has commented every time she's been around
- 10/12/2010 10:08:16 PM
1310 Views
Re: Please note that Nynaeve has commented every time she's been around
- 10/12/2010 10:50:32 PM
1377 Views
It's more than just fear of Moridin that makes her choose an attack from such a distance
- 10/12/2010 11:10:57 PM
1283 Views
How is it that this the longest thread on this board? Is it even relevant in the least? *NM*
- 18/12/2010 02:53:22 PM
865 Views
Re: How is it that this the longest thread on this board? Is it even relevant in the least?
- 18/12/2010 08:21:24 PM
1231 Views
Look at the topic. As if we needed evidence that Elayne is weaker than the Foresaken.
- 19/12/2010 04:41:25 AM
1264 Views

*NM*