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Ta'veren vs. Mary Sue lilltempest Send a noteboard - 17/12/2010 07:33:28 PM
Is she perfect? No, but I would say that of all the characters, she is the most like Rand. The qualities you would call "Mary Sue"-like are remarkably similar to being "t'a'veren".


I know you were responding to the original poster, but I had to comment on this. There is a huge difference between a ta'veren (Rand) and a Mary Sue (Egwene).

RJ created the whole ta'veren concept to explain things that seemed too unbelievable to accept, such as: people agreeing to something that goes against everything they believe, dice landing on their edge time and time again, characters behaving incredibly out of character when in a ta'veren's presence, etc. It was wise of him, really. It gave him leeway to force things to happen that, without the entire ta'veren concept ("the Pattern bending around a certain thread";) Rand, Mat, and Perrin's journeys (particularly Rand and Mat's) would have been too ludicrous to accept, even in a fantasy novel.

My point is that there is an explanation for what happens around the three ta'veren. It is presented in the books, accepted as fact by the characters, and is simply part of the "world" of WoT.

On the other hand, Egwene is given all of the advantages of a ta'veren, minus all of the disadvantages (like people yelling at her despite fearing her like when Merana blasted Rand for leaving them alone with the Sea Folk) but is not a ta'veren. The ta'veren, despite their ta'veren nature, encounter and deal with people who don't like them and think they're stupid (all the women around Mat and Rand constantly act like the two of them are too stupid to wipe their own asses without being directed by a woman), yet Egwene always manages to have everyone thinking about how brilliant and awesome she is...no one resists her for long, no one stands up to her hypocrisy, and no one ever criticizes her (even those who resist her at first, like Romanda, grudgingly think about how great she is). It goes past suspending disbelief into being flat out ridiculous. If RJ wanted to play it this way for her, he should have made her ta'veren, but I honestly think he didn't want to have to give her any of the negative ta'veren effects so he left her as "normal" while giving her all the advantages of a ta'veren.

Hell, he didn't just give her the advantages of a ta'veren, he gave her advantages that far exceed those of a ta'veren. He overplayed his hand with her, and Brandon overplayed it even more. If just one character stood up and told her off for being a hypocrite, or refused to do what she wanted, or for once she was shown as being flat out wrong and called to the mat for it like others are (instead of her supposedly justified self-righteousness about other people's foibles when she herself commits the same sins), then maybe, just maybe, the character could be a little bit more believable and less of a Mary Sue, but none of that ever happens. Instead, she gets better advantages than a ta'veren but is not a ta'veren. Hence, she's a Mary Sue.
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Egwene, a poor leader? - 16/12/2010 05:59:15 PM 2058 Views
Egwene isn't supposed to be a leader. She's a dictator and a politician. - 16/12/2010 08:21:13 PM 1215 Views
Well! No love lost there - 17/12/2010 01:52:59 PM 699 Views
Re: Egwene, a poor leader? - 16/12/2010 09:35:44 PM 997 Views
Re: Egwene, a poor leader? - 16/12/2010 10:53:20 PM 920 Views
Re: Egwene, a poor leader? - 17/12/2010 03:07:40 AM 1020 Views
Exactly how loyal do you think Nynaeve and Elayne are? - 17/12/2010 04:52:34 AM 791 Views
Re: Exactly how loyal do you think Nynaeve and Elayne are? - 17/12/2010 05:44:30 AM 898 Views
That was the case a few books back - 17/12/2010 07:44:32 AM 892 Views
Re: That was the case a few books back - 17/12/2010 10:14:36 AM 859 Views
Re: Egwene, a poor leader? - 17/12/2010 02:30:48 PM 935 Views
Re: Egwene, a poor leader? - 17/12/2010 08:25:39 PM 728 Views
Re: Egwene, a poor leader? - 18/12/2010 05:06:21 AM 894 Views
Re: Egwene, a poor leader? - 19/12/2010 08:41:31 PM 775 Views
Torturing Nynaeve for exclusively her own political ends. *NM* - 20/12/2010 12:14:55 AM 498 Views
Re: Torturing Nynaeve for exclusively her own political ends. - 20/12/2010 01:24:12 AM 827 Views
And the most painful torments were caused by Egwene - 20/12/2010 09:31:44 AM 954 Views
That's not quite true. - 20/12/2010 06:47:33 PM 755 Views
That's not quite accurate. - 21/12/2010 01:22:26 AM 1041 Views
Re: Egwene, a poor leader? - 20/12/2010 12:57:42 AM 766 Views
Re: Egwene, a poor leader? - 20/12/2010 02:02:05 AM 846 Views
Re: Egwene, a poor leader? - 22/12/2010 07:08:37 AM 783 Views
She has the same power base as any Amyrlin - the Aes Sedai, the artisans, Guards & citizens of TV - 17/12/2010 05:51:20 PM 884 Views
Ta'veren vs. Mary Sue - 17/12/2010 07:33:28 PM 1197 Views
I see them as being the same thing. - 17/12/2010 08:11:30 PM 871 Views
I don't think the case can be made for Rand having it easy - 17/12/2010 11:04:58 PM 791 Views
Funniest statement I've ever seen on here. - 18/12/2010 05:22:28 AM 889 Views
Agree with your comments. - 20/12/2010 03:12:32 PM 1081 Views
You need to post more about Egwene - 17/12/2010 08:16:19 PM 842 Views
Nah. Just a hyopcrite. *NM* - 17/12/2010 09:28:28 PM 443 Views
Yes, but for completely different reasons... - 18/12/2010 12:35:23 AM 907 Views
Yes, communication is key. - 18/12/2010 05:32:01 AM 790 Views
You think Egwene has more power than Tuon? - 18/12/2010 12:27:01 PM 751 Views
Re: You think Egwene has more power than Tuon? - 18/12/2010 02:41:25 PM 686 Views
Definitely... - 18/12/2010 03:24:12 PM 768 Views
Where does the 200000 number come from? *NM* - 18/12/2010 03:36:22 PM 407 Views
That's not right... - 19/12/2010 12:56:25 AM 739 Views
Re: That's not right... - 19/12/2010 11:38:54 PM 822 Views
What's said above. Plus - 19/12/2010 11:00:42 AM 715 Views
More explanations... - 20/12/2010 02:51:25 AM 729 Views
Re: More explanations... - 20/12/2010 09:40:46 AM 809 Views
Aiel, Cairhien and Andor are NOT under Egwenes power. - 20/12/2010 02:46:44 PM 805 Views
Re: More explanations... - 20/12/2010 03:58:58 PM 925 Views
An Amyrlin doesn't really have a power base. - 18/12/2010 05:43:12 AM 853 Views
I think comparing Egwene to McCain is asking for trouble on several fronts. - 20/12/2010 12:33:04 AM 733 Views
She has a pretty powerful weapon... - 20/12/2010 02:41:32 AM 774 Views
RJ is more powerful. - 20/12/2010 03:25:49 AM 875 Views
I'd advise a re-read. Of ToM, and maybe the whole series... - 20/12/2010 03:58:03 AM 817 Views
Re: I'd advise a re-read. Of ToM, and maybe the whole series... - 21/12/2010 09:08:20 PM 796 Views
Re: She has a pretty powerful weapon... - 20/12/2010 09:46:22 AM 859 Views
Re: She has a pretty powerful weapon... - 20/12/2010 09:55:03 AM 729 Views
Re: She has a pretty powerful weapon... - 20/12/2010 10:27:59 AM 783 Views
One example of this... - 20/12/2010 11:15:03 AM 852 Views
Re: One example of this... - 20/12/2010 11:22:10 AM 710 Views
Re: She has a pretty powerful weapon... - 20/12/2010 11:08:35 AM 788 Views
That's not quite true. - 20/12/2010 10:35:45 PM 783 Views

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