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Re: Hmmm.... Fanatic-Templar Send a noteboard - 29/09/2009 06:26:17 AM
Siuan did so too, IIRC, and that was based on Verin's report. Not as impressive as Niall, of course, who had less reliable sources to work with.


Well, she never did anything about it, forgot it or dismissed it as unimportant, as others did, while Niall quite clearly intended to do that (although, to be fair Amadicia is fairly closer to Tarabon than Tar Valon is to any Seanchan landing site).

Also, notice that this is from Egwene's PoV, and she is having such a violently negative reaction to what Elaida has become that it is quite likely that Elaida's firm command that servants come and clean the carpet sounded like a shriek to her.


That's true. Maybe I am being hasty in my judgment. But The Wheel of Time doesn't have a good record of keeping antagonists impressive.

What is making her win though, is that she is bluntly pointing out what the Tower AS had only been thinking or whispering to close friends... Elaida has been a disaster, and the Tower is much worse than it should be under an even half-way competent Amyrlin.


Just a joke directed at the disproportionate amount of respect Egwene earned by getting spanked, when we've seen so much worse in the series already. Of course I never believed that was what was going to earn her the Tower.

But she is saying that Elaida started it with her shady tactics in removing Siuan. Surely, in a fight, it matters who gave first offense?


But in that case, wouldn't the first offense be the crime that Siuan committed and got her deposed in the first place?

We do not know that Siuan was stilled at that time.
More importantly, with no trial for the woman and a bunch of admitted nonsense being described as her crimes, why should the Greens and Blues have assumed that there was any legality to this deposition?

That Warders fought against Warders is totally Elaida's fault.


No, I kinda put the blame on the Warders who attacked the Tower. And on their Sisters, who presumably commanded them, because really, what do the Warders care? So yeah, I think the Warders who turned on the other Warders are responsible for turning Warder against Warder. Funny how that works, isn't it?

Keeping the Dragon's Rebirth a secret. And a load of other crap like helping Taim escape and being a Darkfriend.

And what containment was Siuan to do? He had scarcely begun to expand his power-base then, and was doing so under the tutelage and guidance of Siuan's trusted envoy!


She could have, you know, informed the White Tower of the Dragon's Rebirth so they would be able to contain him. That would have been disastrous to the world, of course, but given that the crime is 'not containing the Dragon Reborn', let me ask you, which Amyrlin actually met with the Dragon Reborn, knowing who he was, surrounded by Aes Sedai, Warders, Tower Guard and Shienarans who would leap to obey her, while the Dragon Reborn was alone?

Of course it is wrong! I fail to see how you ignore motive in your assessment of these actions.


I don't. You do. You pretend only Egwene has rationalisations for her crimes.

Egwene was forced


No she wasn't. She was 'forced' to come to Salidar by people who had neither the authority to order her, nor the ability to enforce their decrees. Essentially, she was 'forced' by a complete and utter lack of force.

into a position where her death was a very possible finish to the story if the women who raised her fouled up.


Right, and if Elaida is deposed, she will be Stilled, which is the equivalent of death. So she is also justified in magically forcing obedience in her subjects, right?

What she did is exactly what Rand did to Moiraine. He used the fact that she needed to stay close to him to blackmail her into an oath of obedience.


That was wrong, according to Egwene (and Nynaeve), remember?

And he was damn right to demand it because she was trying to make him dance to her tune, and the only person whose reputation and very life were at stake was him!
On the other hand, as far as Egwene knows, Elaida is demanding Oaths of obedience from everyone to clean up her own mess (Egwene knows nothing of Alviarin's role in breaking the Tower).


Ah, so the problem is that Egwene knows what she did was a crime, so she did it secretly, while Elaida is actually going to be open about it?

One was essentially self defense, against a bunch of women hell bent on pulling strings and staying in power no matter who lost their life.


Welcome to politics. I'm sure no other important political figure in the series has had people who wanted to 'pull strings and stay in power no matter who lost their life'. Except, you know, all of them. Including Elaida.
The other is an obvious ploy to gain complete control over all your subjects so all your wishes are fulfilled.


No, it's just self-defense, against actual Darkfriends who want to manipulate her into destroying the White Tower and ensuring the Aes Sedai won't be able to help at Tarmon Gai'don. Wow, that's even more important than a single life, so Elaida is even more justified than Egwene!

There's nothing incongruous in Egwene's anger at Elaida's proposed Oath./quote>

No, what's incongruous is that she doesn't realise she's a hypocritical rat.
The first rule of being a ninja is "do no harm". Unless you intend to do harm, then do lots of harm.
~Master Splinter

Victorious in Bergioyn's legendary 'Reverse Mafia'. *MySmiley*
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Your thoughts about TGS - chapter 2 *spoilers* - 24/09/2009 03:17:07 PM 8390 Views
Mind-numbingly boring... - 24/09/2009 04:22:52 PM 2869 Views
I thought it was excellent *NM* - 24/09/2009 04:32:05 PM 1579 Views
Only for someone who can't read between the lines. - 24/09/2009 07:40:18 PM 2709 Views
I adored it. *NM* - 24/09/2009 08:37:38 PM 1440 Views
Agreed, but only because of the incredibly slow audio reading. FORTY-FIVE minutes for ONE chapter!!! *NM* - 25/09/2009 06:08:27 AM 1477 Views
EVERY Chapter in the entire series is read that way. - 25/09/2009 01:40:07 PM 2388 Views
Yup, they're a lot of fun to listen to. - 26/09/2009 08:26:52 PM 2282 Views
Agreed. As for the speed issue... - 28/09/2009 02:11:13 PM 2214 Views
Cannoli’s journal of listening to “The Nature of Pain.” - 28/09/2009 01:03:35 PM 2846 Views
Chapter summary - 24/09/2009 04:31:01 PM 2951 Views
sounds like its RJs work from the dialogue *NM* - 24/09/2009 04:33:57 PM 1353 Views
I agree - I'm certain it was RJ *NM* - 24/09/2009 04:36:12 PM 1614 Views
Agreed. It was RJ through and through. *NM* - 24/09/2009 04:36:13 PM 1398 Views
+1 - 25/09/2009 06:03:44 AM 2382 Views
I should disagree - 26/09/2009 10:34:58 PM 2510 Views
Jordan left tons of background info in notes - 27/09/2009 07:36:11 PM 2422 Views
Re: Chapter summary - 24/09/2009 06:50:36 PM 2500 Views
Can someone explain to me where Egwene developed this immense love for the Tower? - 24/09/2009 04:44:28 PM 2536 Views
Well, she's replaced everything else in her life with the Tower. - 24/09/2009 04:47:05 PM 2544 Views
I always thought it was the small town thing - 24/09/2009 04:50:19 PM 2516 Views
Could it be that Fain could have contaminated her in tFOH? - 24/09/2009 04:51:56 PM 2440 Views
Can Fain do that? - 24/09/2009 04:53:57 PM 2409 Views
No he can't (couldn't) - 24/09/2009 05:02:21 PM 2597 Views
So you're saying that an antagonist is being portrayed as idiotic in this series? No way! - 24/09/2009 04:58:15 PM 2508 Views
I this case, I'm quite forgiving - 24/09/2009 05:36:59 PM 2414 Views
What has Gawyn done that demonstrates stupidity? - 28/09/2009 05:21:39 AM 2393 Views
Ambitious people are like that - 24/09/2009 05:08:27 PM 2468 Views
Re: Can someone explain to me where Egwene developed this immense love for the Tower? - 24/09/2009 06:01:46 PM 2455 Views
I don't think its necessarily for the tower itself - 24/09/2009 08:30:15 PM 2396 Views
This made my morning happy. - 24/09/2009 04:45:08 PM 2435 Views
I think it's different. - 24/09/2009 05:51:11 PM 2568 Views
True. - 24/09/2009 07:21:36 PM 2538 Views
Re: True. - 24/09/2009 07:30:06 PM 2398 Views
Re: I think it's different. - 25/09/2009 03:24:22 AM 2437 Views
There's still a difference... - 25/09/2009 04:28:55 AM 2305 Views
Re: There's still a difference... - 26/09/2009 12:30:28 PM 2329 Views
But... - 26/09/2009 03:44:31 PM 2333 Views
Re: But... - 26/09/2009 04:08:35 PM 2314 Views
She could have not bungled up... - 26/09/2009 05:17:02 PM 2146 Views
In PoD, it is revealed that Alviarin makes Elaida swear obedience to her. - 26/09/2009 07:48:01 PM 2561 Views
he's saying that. - 26/09/2009 10:12:16 PM 2223 Views
She also deposes Alviarin... - 26/09/2009 10:47:07 PM 2294 Views
Egwene matured a bit, BUT - 24/09/2009 04:51:53 PM 2386 Views
Ever had rancid oil? - 01/10/2009 08:42:59 PM 3090 Views
Is Alviarin finished? - 24/09/2009 04:52:31 PM 2491 Views
Two possibilities that come to mind - 24/09/2009 05:11:41 PM 2474 Views
Or - 24/09/2009 05:45:36 PM 2562 Views
Best idea ^ *NM* - 24/09/2009 08:27:15 PM 1720 Views
Egwene knows about the letter, and soon the BA hunters will too. - 24/09/2009 07:46:34 PM 2410 Views
She's got to be 'raised' to the shawl first, to take the 4 oaths. - 24/09/2009 10:33:42 PM 2401 Views
No they don't - 24/09/2009 11:03:09 PM 2264 Views
Oh, I thought you meant Elaida's new obedience oath *NM* - 25/09/2009 09:15:48 AM 1369 Views
Her part will probably be... - 24/09/2009 06:06:08 PM 2449 Views
I think her mission has changed. - 24/09/2009 06:08:11 PM 2216 Views
Re: Is Alviarin finished? - 24/09/2009 09:08:29 PM 2069 Views
Good 1st chapter of Egwene's plotline! - 24/09/2009 05:15:32 PM 2438 Views
Painful to listen to - 24/09/2009 05:33:22 PM 2456 Views
Not finished it yet - 24/09/2009 05:42:18 PM 2548 Views
WHITE! - 24/09/2009 06:20:43 PM 2412 Views
Not White! (spoilers) And Seanchan attack idea. - 28/09/2009 02:26:06 AM 2527 Views
Yes, Mesaana's plain white dress seems somewhat peculiar - 24/09/2009 06:43:45 PM 2523 Views
But what if she has no choice but to stay? - 24/09/2009 08:02:01 PM 2194 Views
Are you kidding? Moridin would kill her - 24/09/2009 10:50:34 PM 2274 Views
She doesn't.. - 25/09/2009 06:36:22 AM 2241 Views
If this is true, it could be a ploy - 25/09/2009 03:06:45 AM 2389 Views
Plus, it avoids getting tangled in the Black Ajah hunt - 25/09/2009 03:11:38 AM 2180 Views
I struggle to think of Mesaana as a novice - 25/09/2009 05:16:57 AM 2433 Views
I disagree - 25/09/2009 11:08:34 AM 2491 Views
nice idea *NM* - 24/09/2009 08:29:56 PM 1323 Views
I liked it *Spoilers* - 24/09/2009 05:49:41 PM 2371 Views
I think... - 24/09/2009 07:01:42 PM 2543 Views
Re: I think... - 24/09/2009 07:33:34 PM 2149 Views
Re: I think... - 24/09/2009 08:00:09 PM 2543 Views
Wasn't there a high turnover in War of Power as well? - 24/09/2009 08:07:38 PM 2288 Views
Re: Wasn't there a high turnover in War of Power as well? - 25/09/2009 03:43:22 PM 2386 Views
Chosen have been mindtrapped before - 25/09/2009 04:32:18 PM 1896 Views
Re: I think... - 25/09/2009 07:25:34 PM 2323 Views
Surely worse happened in the War of Power though before the seals were laid - 24/09/2009 07:58:54 PM 2349 Views
I was totally caught off guard! - 24/09/2009 05:50:39 PM 2382 Views
I all excited! - 24/09/2009 06:26:23 PM 2287 Views
Yay - 24/09/2009 07:00:41 PM 2550 Views
Egwene is arrogant as ever...thinking Rand can't possibly get along without guidance *NM* - 24/09/2009 08:25:24 PM 1556 Views
is she wrong? - 24/09/2009 08:34:44 PM 2428 Views
The problem is that Egwene isn't honest with herself. Two afterthouts as edits - 24/09/2009 08:43:38 PM 2595 Views
Re: The problem is that Egwene isn't honest with herself. - 24/09/2009 08:46:09 PM 2386 Views
I'm sure Moridin knows how to too - 27/09/2009 03:59:49 PM 2287 Views
Re: is she wrong? - 25/09/2009 03:38:09 AM 2493 Views
Re: is she wrong? - 25/09/2009 04:30:28 AM 2280 Views
You're totally wrong - 25/09/2009 02:23:27 PM 2443 Views
Re: You're totally wrong - 25/09/2009 03:32:22 PM 2361 Views
but she was absolutely essential in the successful completion - 29/09/2009 02:55:13 PM 2647 Views
I like Egwene but I didn't like her statement - 25/09/2009 05:03:33 AM 2574 Views
I agree, and one more reason why I agree - 25/09/2009 02:27:44 PM 2435 Views
I disagree in some ways - 25/09/2009 03:23:35 PM 2182 Views
I agree, and that is Rand's problem in the first place. - 25/09/2009 07:27:22 PM 2353 Views
Rand should invoke the 'Law of War' against the DO - 25/09/2009 06:19:56 AM 2324 Views
She wants part of the glory. *NM* - 25/09/2009 06:31:47 AM 1302 Views
What will happen first: black ajah hunt ends or Seanchan attack the WT? - 24/09/2009 08:38:43 PM 2530 Views
I can never decide what I think will happen - 24/09/2009 08:44:03 PM 2457 Views
Re: I can never decide what I think will happen - 24/09/2009 09:25:18 PM 2341 Views
I disagree, the Rebels are better protected - 24/09/2009 09:36:19 PM 2410 Views
I agree with you. Rebels are harder to take (rebels have Asha'man too) *NM* - 24/09/2009 09:59:10 PM 1361 Views
So do the Tower Reds, only the Seanchan don't know that yet... - 25/09/2009 04:46:17 AM 2220 Views
Yet according to one of Min's visions, Carlinya gets made "property" - 29/09/2009 03:09:28 PM 2260 Views
Re: Yet according to one of Min's visions, Carlinya gets made "property" - 29/09/2009 03:23:45 PM 2363 Views
OK, I didn't remember the details correctly - 29/09/2009 03:38:16 PM 2330 Views
Re: OK, I didn't remember the details correctly - 29/09/2009 04:11:22 PM 2425 Views
Harnan's tattoo is of a hawk, not a raven - 29/09/2009 04:37:27 PM 2455 Views
Oops. Then no other interpretations. - 29/09/2009 04:51:07 PM 2336 Views
Potential for conflicting prophecies? - 26/09/2009 08:49:04 PM 2153 Views
no.. - 26/09/2009 09:12:52 PM 2282 Views
The title of book 13... - 24/09/2009 09:19:17 PM 2264 Views
Swing and a miss. - 24/09/2009 10:33:46 PM 2469 Views
As said - 25/09/2009 06:37:46 AM 2182 Views
Or maybe the fortress in the blight? - 25/09/2009 12:51:05 PM 2277 Views
Yes, those Towers... - 25/09/2009 03:10:40 PM 2357 Views
Seems unlikely to me. - 25/09/2009 01:44:27 PM 2392 Views
Yeah, that's possible. - 25/09/2009 03:11:33 PM 2319 Views
Egwene's surprising decision... - 25/09/2009 08:38:51 PM 2220 Views
I think it's an exaggeration - 25/09/2009 09:01:22 PM 2369 Views
Re: Egwene's surprising decision... - 26/09/2009 12:58:51 AM 2367 Views
The Seanchan attack will happen first - 24/09/2009 10:47:50 PM 2220 Views
I think Egwene is building up an immunity to forkroot. *NM* - 25/09/2009 02:03:58 AM 1377 Views
I'm kinda hoping Mesaana hands them all in a basket to Moridin. - 25/09/2009 02:51:55 AM 2138 Views
Egwene's respect reminds me of Niall's comment to Morgase - 25/09/2009 03:39:19 AM 2258 Views
Both at once, I don't think it will be a neat A then B, or B then A - 25/09/2009 03:53:30 AM 2311 Views
How would they possibly hear of Turan in Arad Doman? - 25/09/2009 02:34:34 PM 2309 Views
Raken - they are used as messengers - 25/09/2009 02:43:29 PM 2324 Views
Egwene... surprised me. It was great. - 24/09/2009 08:49:36 PM 2205 Views
I didn't catch any hints as to Mesaana's identity. Were there any? - 24/09/2009 08:51:23 PM 2255 Views
Katerine is Black Ajah - 24/09/2009 10:48:14 PM 2314 Views
Also... this makes me miss RJ even more - 24/09/2009 08:52:52 PM 2576 Views
I experienced just the opposite - 25/09/2009 06:40:53 AM 2434 Views
Totally disagree - 25/09/2009 06:58:36 AM 2232 Views
This was a truely beautiful chapter *NM* - 24/09/2009 10:22:48 PM 1345 Views
Really? - 24/09/2009 11:37:59 PM 2265 Views
Daaayyum - when did Elaida become such a baller/shot caller? - 24/09/2009 11:23:41 PM 2374 Views
I can't wait to actually read the chapter-- I thought it was very well written *NM* - 25/09/2009 12:18:48 AM 1326 Views
In regards to Alviarin. - 25/09/2009 01:32:09 AM 2397 Views
Could Elaida pass a 4th Oath? - 25/09/2009 05:13:08 AM 2322 Views
The Black Ajah would never stand for it, even if the other sisters would - 25/09/2009 06:38:19 AM 2488 Views
And therein lies Elaida's genius... - 25/09/2009 07:08:48 PM 2468 Views
Fain as the source of much of the Tower's woes - 25/09/2009 05:30:49 AM 2276 Views
No one else thinks Fain has had any influence on Elaida's erratic behavior? *NM* - 25/09/2009 05:32:05 PM 1386 Views
I agree. Fain is affecting her, for certain. NT *NM* - 28/09/2009 02:30:45 AM 1431 Views
What about Mesaana? - 25/09/2009 06:03:41 PM 2170 Views
Mat vs Egwene - 25/09/2009 03:34:35 PM 2345 Views
Re: Mat vs Egwene - 25/09/2009 03:38:39 PM 2307 Views
Re: Mat vs Egwene - 25/09/2009 03:40:32 PM 2322 Views
Re: Mat vs Egwene - 25/09/2009 04:16:16 PM 2310 Views
We already saw Mat confront Egwene in Salidar. What more - 25/09/2009 04:18:21 PM 2476 Views
Re: We already saw Mat confront Egwene in Salidar. What more - 25/09/2009 04:37:04 PM 2340 Views
That's not his argument though - 25/09/2009 04:34:35 PM 2181 Views
Ah okay. - 25/09/2009 04:36:00 PM 2290 Views
She seemed okay with it in KoD - 25/09/2009 04:38:53 PM 2391 Views
I think... - 25/09/2009 03:47:26 PM 2411 Views
Nice ideas! *NM* - 25/09/2009 03:51:01 PM 2057 Views
That is really good idea - 25/09/2009 08:12:34 PM 2526 Views
Though... - 26/09/2009 01:32:18 PM 2370 Views
Re: Mat vs Egwene - 25/09/2009 06:15:56 PM 2158 Views
egwene and elaida's 4th oath - 25/09/2009 03:51:36 PM 2326 Views
Egwene's Hypocrisy here is astounding: - 29/09/2009 03:39:25 AM 2331 Views
Egwene and Mesaana - 25/09/2009 06:07:37 PM 2361 Views
Come now...even though Mesaana is whimpy for a Forsaken, she would wipe the floor with Egwene... - 25/09/2009 06:10:13 PM 2365 Views
Alright, I *may* have overlooked that significant point. - 25/09/2009 06:21:09 PM 2201 Views
Agreed - 26/09/2009 06:36:01 AM 2272 Views
Depends on where the battle takes place. TAR = Egwene win. - 02/10/2009 06:10:07 PM 2350 Views
Egwene would need to lead a circle or use an angreal to beat her. *NM* - 25/09/2009 06:31:42 PM 1359 Views
Unless it was based on willpower as in a conflict within Tel'Aran'Rhiod - 25/09/2009 07:19:50 PM 2286 Views
Humph. - 26/09/2009 03:27:09 AM 2235 Views
She was overconfident - 26/09/2009 03:24:51 PM 2311 Views
A lie by Elaida? - 27/09/2009 02:31:36 PM 2550 Views
Re: A lie by Elaida? - 27/09/2009 02:50:49 PM 2269 Views
Re: A lie by Elaida? - 27/09/2009 03:01:06 PM 2271 Views
I don't think it covers things like that - 27/09/2009 04:10:05 PM 2259 Views
She believes what she said *NM* - 28/09/2009 04:51:52 AM 1338 Views
Remember, perspective. - 29/09/2009 12:14:59 AM 2160 Views
It might well be true - 29/09/2009 12:38:20 AM 2307 Views
Well... that elicited quite a reaction. - 28/09/2009 06:25:52 AM 2105 Views
I had many of those same thoughts. - 28/09/2009 05:27:43 PM 2339 Views
Re: I had many of those same thoughts. - 28/09/2009 06:42:56 PM 2110 Views
Re: I had many of those same thoughts. - 28/09/2009 11:08:00 PM 2247 Views
I've just learned to skip any female POV's written by RJ - 29/09/2009 04:38:45 AM 2286 Views
Hmmm.... - 29/09/2009 05:30:44 AM 2309 Views
Re: Hmmm.... - 29/09/2009 06:26:17 AM 2319 Views
Ridiculous - 30/09/2009 12:34:07 AM 2183 Views
Very. - 30/09/2009 02:40:07 AM 2284 Views
Re: Hmmm.... - 30/09/2009 03:00:01 AM 2305 Views
Re: Hmmm.... - 30/09/2009 04:32:14 AM 2313 Views
Re: Hmmm.... - 01/10/2009 03:23:21 AM 2276 Views
Re: Hmmm.... - 01/10/2009 04:51:14 AM 2259 Views
Re: Hmmm.... - 03/10/2009 01:57:24 PM 2591 Views
That's Mesaana's purpose actually *NM* - 06/11/2009 07:03:12 AM 1309 Views
Elaida, Formidable? - 29/09/2009 11:48:04 PM 2437 Views
How do you figure? - 30/09/2009 12:15:47 AM 2061 Views
Aside from successfuly orchastrate the coup what has she done? - 30/09/2009 12:35:07 AM 2325 Views
Re: Aside from successfuly orchastrate the coup what has she done? - 30/09/2009 02:29:37 AM 2191 Views
Broke the Black Ajah's hold on the Amyrlin seat??????? - 30/09/2009 06:09:08 PM 2161 Views
Ignore *NM* - 30/09/2009 06:20:12 PM 1312 Views
Oh yeah, and... - 29/09/2009 04:22:57 AM 2463 Views
Egwene in this chapter... - 29/09/2009 05:04:35 AM 2389 Views
Re: Egwene in this chapter... - 29/09/2009 05:59:33 AM 2531 Views
Author thoughts - Audiobook versus reading - 29/09/2009 05:30:39 AM 2289 Views
Yes, I've felt very much the same *NM* - 29/09/2009 12:52:52 PM 1455 Views
A lot of that is the narrator - 29/09/2009 04:36:47 PM 2332 Views
The Dark One's Touch - 30/09/2009 06:21:24 PM 2404 Views
Good point! *NM* - 30/09/2009 06:26:51 PM 1360 Views
Re: The Dark One's Touch - 30/09/2009 06:44:53 PM 2152 Views
What about the person who has the ter'angreal dagger? - 30/09/2009 07:11:18 PM 2102 Views
Re: What about the person who has the ter'angreal dagger? - 30/09/2009 07:17:06 PM 2098 Views
The Irony of Elaida - 30/09/2009 11:10:08 PM 2318 Views
LOL, I agree. - 01/10/2009 02:47:18 AM 2265 Views

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