Active Users:271 Time:29/03/2024 09:53:57 AM
Re: Hmmm.... Fanatic-Templar Send a noteboard - 29/09/2009 06:26:17 AM
Siuan did so too, IIRC, and that was based on Verin's report. Not as impressive as Niall, of course, who had less reliable sources to work with.


Well, she never did anything about it, forgot it or dismissed it as unimportant, as others did, while Niall quite clearly intended to do that (although, to be fair Amadicia is fairly closer to Tarabon than Tar Valon is to any Seanchan landing site).

Also, notice that this is from Egwene's PoV, and she is having such a violently negative reaction to what Elaida has become that it is quite likely that Elaida's firm command that servants come and clean the carpet sounded like a shriek to her.


That's true. Maybe I am being hasty in my judgment. But The Wheel of Time doesn't have a good record of keeping antagonists impressive.

What is making her win though, is that she is bluntly pointing out what the Tower AS had only been thinking or whispering to close friends... Elaida has been a disaster, and the Tower is much worse than it should be under an even half-way competent Amyrlin.


Just a joke directed at the disproportionate amount of respect Egwene earned by getting spanked, when we've seen so much worse in the series already. Of course I never believed that was what was going to earn her the Tower.

But she is saying that Elaida started it with her shady tactics in removing Siuan. Surely, in a fight, it matters who gave first offense?


But in that case, wouldn't the first offense be the crime that Siuan committed and got her deposed in the first place?

We do not know that Siuan was stilled at that time.
More importantly, with no trial for the woman and a bunch of admitted nonsense being described as her crimes, why should the Greens and Blues have assumed that there was any legality to this deposition?

That Warders fought against Warders is totally Elaida's fault.


No, I kinda put the blame on the Warders who attacked the Tower. And on their Sisters, who presumably commanded them, because really, what do the Warders care? So yeah, I think the Warders who turned on the other Warders are responsible for turning Warder against Warder. Funny how that works, isn't it?

Keeping the Dragon's Rebirth a secret. And a load of other crap like helping Taim escape and being a Darkfriend.

And what containment was Siuan to do? He had scarcely begun to expand his power-base then, and was doing so under the tutelage and guidance of Siuan's trusted envoy!


She could have, you know, informed the White Tower of the Dragon's Rebirth so they would be able to contain him. That would have been disastrous to the world, of course, but given that the crime is 'not containing the Dragon Reborn', let me ask you, which Amyrlin actually met with the Dragon Reborn, knowing who he was, surrounded by Aes Sedai, Warders, Tower Guard and Shienarans who would leap to obey her, while the Dragon Reborn was alone?

Of course it is wrong! I fail to see how you ignore motive in your assessment of these actions.


I don't. You do. You pretend only Egwene has rationalisations for her crimes.

Egwene was forced


No she wasn't. She was 'forced' to come to Salidar by people who had neither the authority to order her, nor the ability to enforce their decrees. Essentially, she was 'forced' by a complete and utter lack of force.

into a position where her death was a very possible finish to the story if the women who raised her fouled up.


Right, and if Elaida is deposed, she will be Stilled, which is the equivalent of death. So she is also justified in magically forcing obedience in her subjects, right?

What she did is exactly what Rand did to Moiraine. He used the fact that she needed to stay close to him to blackmail her into an oath of obedience.


That was wrong, according to Egwene (and Nynaeve), remember?

And he was damn right to demand it because she was trying to make him dance to her tune, and the only person whose reputation and very life were at stake was him!
On the other hand, as far as Egwene knows, Elaida is demanding Oaths of obedience from everyone to clean up her own mess (Egwene knows nothing of Alviarin's role in breaking the Tower).


Ah, so the problem is that Egwene knows what she did was a crime, so she did it secretly, while Elaida is actually going to be open about it?

One was essentially self defense, against a bunch of women hell bent on pulling strings and staying in power no matter who lost their life.


Welcome to politics. I'm sure no other important political figure in the series has had people who wanted to 'pull strings and stay in power no matter who lost their life'. Except, you know, all of them. Including Elaida.
The other is an obvious ploy to gain complete control over all your subjects so all your wishes are fulfilled.


No, it's just self-defense, against actual Darkfriends who want to manipulate her into destroying the White Tower and ensuring the Aes Sedai won't be able to help at Tarmon Gai'don. Wow, that's even more important than a single life, so Elaida is even more justified than Egwene!

There's nothing incongruous in Egwene's anger at Elaida's proposed Oath./quote>

No, what's incongruous is that she doesn't realise she's a hypocritical rat.
The first rule of being a ninja is "do no harm". Unless you intend to do harm, then do lots of harm.
~Master Splinter

Victorious in Bergioyn's legendary 'Reverse Mafia'. *MySmiley*
Reply to message
Your thoughts about TGS - chapter 2 *spoilers* - 24/09/2009 03:17:07 PM 7101 Views
Mind-numbingly boring... - 24/09/2009 04:22:52 PM 1851 Views
I thought it was excellent *NM* - 24/09/2009 04:32:05 PM 1071 Views
Only for someone who can't read between the lines. - 24/09/2009 07:40:18 PM 1702 Views
I adored it. *NM* - 24/09/2009 08:37:38 PM 918 Views
Agreed, but only because of the incredibly slow audio reading. FORTY-FIVE minutes for ONE chapter!!! *NM* - 25/09/2009 06:08:27 AM 971 Views
EVERY Chapter in the entire series is read that way. - 25/09/2009 01:40:07 PM 1370 Views
Yup, they're a lot of fun to listen to. - 26/09/2009 08:26:52 PM 1298 Views
Agreed. As for the speed issue... - 28/09/2009 02:11:13 PM 1227 Views
Cannoli’s journal of listening to “The Nature of Pain.” - 28/09/2009 01:03:35 PM 1878 Views
Chapter summary - 24/09/2009 04:31:01 PM 1956 Views
sounds like its RJs work from the dialogue *NM* - 24/09/2009 04:33:57 PM 841 Views
I agree - I'm certain it was RJ *NM* - 24/09/2009 04:36:12 PM 1003 Views
Agreed. It was RJ through and through. *NM* - 24/09/2009 04:36:13 PM 901 Views
+1 - 25/09/2009 06:03:44 AM 1377 Views
I should disagree - 26/09/2009 10:34:58 PM 1478 Views
Jordan left tons of background info in notes - 27/09/2009 07:36:11 PM 1376 Views
Re: Chapter summary - 24/09/2009 06:50:36 PM 1547 Views
Can someone explain to me where Egwene developed this immense love for the Tower? - 24/09/2009 04:44:28 PM 1549 Views
Well, she's replaced everything else in her life with the Tower. - 24/09/2009 04:47:05 PM 1562 Views
I always thought it was the small town thing - 24/09/2009 04:50:19 PM 1491 Views
Could it be that Fain could have contaminated her in tFOH? - 24/09/2009 04:51:56 PM 1431 Views
Can Fain do that? - 24/09/2009 04:53:57 PM 1410 Views
No he can't (couldn't) - 24/09/2009 05:02:21 PM 1623 Views
So you're saying that an antagonist is being portrayed as idiotic in this series? No way! - 24/09/2009 04:58:15 PM 1520 Views
I this case, I'm quite forgiving - 24/09/2009 05:36:59 PM 1422 Views
What has Gawyn done that demonstrates stupidity? - 28/09/2009 05:21:39 AM 1388 Views
Ambitious people are like that - 24/09/2009 05:08:27 PM 1457 Views
Re: Can someone explain to me where Egwene developed this immense love for the Tower? - 24/09/2009 06:01:46 PM 1403 Views
I don't think its necessarily for the tower itself - 24/09/2009 08:30:15 PM 1382 Views
This made my morning happy. - 24/09/2009 04:45:08 PM 1489 Views
I think it's different. - 24/09/2009 05:51:11 PM 1516 Views
True. - 24/09/2009 07:21:36 PM 1554 Views
Re: True. - 24/09/2009 07:30:06 PM 1409 Views
Re: I think it's different. - 25/09/2009 03:24:22 AM 1391 Views
There's still a difference... - 25/09/2009 04:28:55 AM 1308 Views
Re: There's still a difference... - 26/09/2009 12:30:28 PM 1322 Views
But... - 26/09/2009 03:44:31 PM 1352 Views
Re: But... - 26/09/2009 04:08:35 PM 1360 Views
She could have not bungled up... - 26/09/2009 05:17:02 PM 1136 Views
In PoD, it is revealed that Alviarin makes Elaida swear obedience to her. - 26/09/2009 07:48:01 PM 1396 Views
he's saying that. - 26/09/2009 10:12:16 PM 1255 Views
She also deposes Alviarin... - 26/09/2009 10:47:07 PM 1291 Views
Egwene matured a bit, BUT - 24/09/2009 04:51:53 PM 1383 Views
Ever had rancid oil? - 01/10/2009 08:42:59 PM 2112 Views
Is Alviarin finished? - 24/09/2009 04:52:31 PM 1501 Views
Two possibilities that come to mind - 24/09/2009 05:11:41 PM 1425 Views
Or - 24/09/2009 05:45:36 PM 1606 Views
Best idea ^ *NM* - 24/09/2009 08:27:15 PM 1211 Views
Egwene knows about the letter, and soon the BA hunters will too. - 24/09/2009 07:46:34 PM 1482 Views
She's got to be 'raised' to the shawl first, to take the 4 oaths. - 24/09/2009 10:33:42 PM 1382 Views
No they don't - 24/09/2009 11:03:09 PM 1288 Views
Oh, I thought you meant Elaida's new obedience oath *NM* - 25/09/2009 09:15:48 AM 889 Views
Her part will probably be... - 24/09/2009 06:06:08 PM 1450 Views
I think her mission has changed. - 24/09/2009 06:08:11 PM 1220 Views
Re: Is Alviarin finished? - 24/09/2009 09:08:29 PM 1352 Views
Good 1st chapter of Egwene's plotline! - 24/09/2009 05:15:32 PM 1442 Views
Painful to listen to - 24/09/2009 05:33:22 PM 1503 Views
Not finished it yet - 24/09/2009 05:42:18 PM 1587 Views
WHITE! - 24/09/2009 06:20:43 PM 1417 Views
Not White! (spoilers) And Seanchan attack idea. - 28/09/2009 02:26:06 AM 1458 Views
Yes, Mesaana's plain white dress seems somewhat peculiar - 24/09/2009 06:43:45 PM 1558 Views
But what if she has no choice but to stay? - 24/09/2009 08:02:01 PM 1233 Views
Are you kidding? Moridin would kill her - 24/09/2009 10:50:34 PM 1312 Views
She doesn't.. - 25/09/2009 06:36:22 AM 1298 Views
If this is true, it could be a ploy - 25/09/2009 03:06:45 AM 1388 Views
Plus, it avoids getting tangled in the Black Ajah hunt - 25/09/2009 03:11:38 AM 1220 Views
I struggle to think of Mesaana as a novice - 25/09/2009 05:16:57 AM 1404 Views
I disagree - 25/09/2009 11:08:34 AM 1503 Views
nice idea *NM* - 24/09/2009 08:29:56 PM 826 Views
I liked it *Spoilers* - 24/09/2009 05:49:41 PM 1399 Views
I think... - 24/09/2009 07:01:42 PM 1571 Views
Re: I think... - 24/09/2009 07:33:34 PM 1183 Views
Re: I think... - 24/09/2009 08:00:09 PM 1539 Views
Wasn't there a high turnover in War of Power as well? - 24/09/2009 08:07:38 PM 1237 Views
Re: Wasn't there a high turnover in War of Power as well? - 25/09/2009 03:43:22 PM 1408 Views
Chosen have been mindtrapped before - 25/09/2009 04:32:18 PM 1177 Views
Re: I think... - 25/09/2009 07:25:34 PM 1316 Views
Surely worse happened in the War of Power though before the seals were laid - 24/09/2009 07:58:54 PM 1352 Views
I was totally caught off guard! - 24/09/2009 05:50:39 PM 1393 Views
I all excited! - 24/09/2009 06:26:23 PM 1309 Views
Yay - 24/09/2009 07:00:41 PM 1566 Views
Egwene is arrogant as ever...thinking Rand can't possibly get along without guidance *NM* - 24/09/2009 08:25:24 PM 1067 Views
is she wrong? - 24/09/2009 08:34:44 PM 1465 Views
The problem is that Egwene isn't honest with herself. Two afterthouts as edits - 24/09/2009 08:43:38 PM 1578 Views
Re: The problem is that Egwene isn't honest with herself. - 24/09/2009 08:46:09 PM 1412 Views
I'm sure Moridin knows how to too - 27/09/2009 03:59:49 PM 1344 Views
Re: is she wrong? - 25/09/2009 03:38:09 AM 1469 Views
Re: is she wrong? - 25/09/2009 04:30:28 AM 1250 Views
You're totally wrong - 25/09/2009 02:23:27 PM 1415 Views
Re: You're totally wrong - 25/09/2009 03:32:22 PM 1363 Views
but she was absolutely essential in the successful completion - 29/09/2009 02:55:13 PM 1635 Views
I like Egwene but I didn't like her statement - 25/09/2009 05:03:33 AM 1531 Views
I agree, and one more reason why I agree - 25/09/2009 02:27:44 PM 1473 Views
I disagree in some ways - 25/09/2009 03:23:35 PM 1233 Views
I agree, and that is Rand's problem in the first place. - 25/09/2009 07:27:22 PM 1393 Views
Rand should invoke the 'Law of War' against the DO - 25/09/2009 06:19:56 AM 1343 Views
She wants part of the glory. *NM* - 25/09/2009 06:31:47 AM 806 Views
What will happen first: black ajah hunt ends or Seanchan attack the WT? - 24/09/2009 08:38:43 PM 1525 Views
I can never decide what I think will happen - 24/09/2009 08:44:03 PM 1418 Views
Re: I can never decide what I think will happen - 24/09/2009 09:25:18 PM 1376 Views
I disagree, the Rebels are better protected - 24/09/2009 09:36:19 PM 1436 Views
I agree with you. Rebels are harder to take (rebels have Asha'man too) *NM* - 24/09/2009 09:59:10 PM 905 Views
So do the Tower Reds, only the Seanchan don't know that yet... - 25/09/2009 04:46:17 AM 1330 Views
Yet according to one of Min's visions, Carlinya gets made "property" - 29/09/2009 03:09:28 PM 1225 Views
Re: Yet according to one of Min's visions, Carlinya gets made "property" - 29/09/2009 03:23:45 PM 1344 Views
OK, I didn't remember the details correctly - 29/09/2009 03:38:16 PM 1364 Views
Re: OK, I didn't remember the details correctly - 29/09/2009 04:11:22 PM 1458 Views
Harnan's tattoo is of a hawk, not a raven - 29/09/2009 04:37:27 PM 1460 Views
Oops. Then no other interpretations. - 29/09/2009 04:51:07 PM 1392 Views
Potential for conflicting prophecies? - 26/09/2009 08:49:04 PM 1153 Views
no.. - 26/09/2009 09:12:52 PM 1259 Views
The title of book 13... - 24/09/2009 09:19:17 PM 1254 Views
Swing and a miss. - 24/09/2009 10:33:46 PM 1452 Views
As said - 25/09/2009 06:37:46 AM 1248 Views
Or maybe the fortress in the blight? - 25/09/2009 12:51:05 PM 1276 Views
Yes, those Towers... - 25/09/2009 03:10:40 PM 1347 Views
Seems unlikely to me. - 25/09/2009 01:44:27 PM 1365 Views
Yeah, that's possible. - 25/09/2009 03:11:33 PM 1355 Views
Egwene's surprising decision... - 25/09/2009 08:38:51 PM 1202 Views
I think it's an exaggeration - 25/09/2009 09:01:22 PM 1322 Views
Re: Egwene's surprising decision... - 26/09/2009 12:58:51 AM 1375 Views
The Seanchan attack will happen first - 24/09/2009 10:47:50 PM 1232 Views
I think Egwene is building up an immunity to forkroot. *NM* - 25/09/2009 02:03:58 AM 899 Views
I'm kinda hoping Mesaana hands them all in a basket to Moridin. - 25/09/2009 02:51:55 AM 1127 Views
Egwene's respect reminds me of Niall's comment to Morgase - 25/09/2009 03:39:19 AM 1307 Views
Both at once, I don't think it will be a neat A then B, or B then A - 25/09/2009 03:53:30 AM 1344 Views
How would they possibly hear of Turan in Arad Doman? - 25/09/2009 02:34:34 PM 1334 Views
Raken - they are used as messengers - 25/09/2009 02:43:29 PM 1262 Views
Egwene... surprised me. It was great. - 24/09/2009 08:49:36 PM 1214 Views
I didn't catch any hints as to Mesaana's identity. Were there any? - 24/09/2009 08:51:23 PM 1267 Views
Katerine is Black Ajah - 24/09/2009 10:48:14 PM 1346 Views
Also... this makes me miss RJ even more - 24/09/2009 08:52:52 PM 1589 Views
I experienced just the opposite - 25/09/2009 06:40:53 AM 1414 Views
Totally disagree - 25/09/2009 06:58:36 AM 1293 Views
This was a truely beautiful chapter *NM* - 24/09/2009 10:22:48 PM 861 Views
Really? - 24/09/2009 11:37:59 PM 1309 Views
Daaayyum - when did Elaida become such a baller/shot caller? - 24/09/2009 11:23:41 PM 1263 Views
In regards to Alviarin. - 25/09/2009 01:32:09 AM 1413 Views
Could Elaida pass a 4th Oath? - 25/09/2009 05:13:08 AM 1334 Views
The Black Ajah would never stand for it, even if the other sisters would - 25/09/2009 06:38:19 AM 1481 Views
And therein lies Elaida's genius... - 25/09/2009 07:08:48 PM 1440 Views
Fain as the source of much of the Tower's woes - 25/09/2009 05:30:49 AM 1299 Views
No one else thinks Fain has had any influence on Elaida's erratic behavior? *NM* - 25/09/2009 05:32:05 PM 889 Views
I agree. Fain is affecting her, for certain. NT *NM* - 28/09/2009 02:30:45 AM 926 Views
What about Mesaana? - 25/09/2009 06:03:41 PM 1201 Views
Mat vs Egwene - 25/09/2009 03:34:35 PM 1331 Views
Re: Mat vs Egwene - 25/09/2009 03:38:39 PM 1342 Views
Re: Mat vs Egwene - 25/09/2009 03:40:32 PM 1350 Views
Re: Mat vs Egwene - 25/09/2009 04:16:16 PM 1350 Views
We already saw Mat confront Egwene in Salidar. What more - 25/09/2009 04:18:21 PM 1461 Views
Re: We already saw Mat confront Egwene in Salidar. What more - 25/09/2009 04:37:04 PM 1361 Views
That's not his argument though - 25/09/2009 04:34:35 PM 1180 Views
Ah okay. - 25/09/2009 04:36:00 PM 1284 Views
She seemed okay with it in KoD - 25/09/2009 04:38:53 PM 1431 Views
I think... - 25/09/2009 03:47:26 PM 1435 Views
Nice ideas! *NM* - 25/09/2009 03:51:01 PM 1088 Views
That is really good idea - 25/09/2009 08:12:34 PM 1513 Views
Though... - 26/09/2009 01:32:18 PM 1387 Views
Re: Mat vs Egwene - 25/09/2009 06:15:56 PM 1203 Views
egwene and elaida's 4th oath - 25/09/2009 03:51:36 PM 1341 Views
Egwene's Hypocrisy here is astounding: - 29/09/2009 03:39:25 AM 1312 Views
Egwene and Mesaana - 25/09/2009 06:07:37 PM 1372 Views
Come now...even though Mesaana is whimpy for a Forsaken, she would wipe the floor with Egwene... - 25/09/2009 06:10:13 PM 1407 Views
Alright, I *may* have overlooked that significant point. - 25/09/2009 06:21:09 PM 1226 Views
Agreed - 26/09/2009 06:36:01 AM 1305 Views
Depends on where the battle takes place. TAR = Egwene win. - 02/10/2009 06:10:07 PM 1392 Views
Egwene would need to lead a circle or use an angreal to beat her. *NM* - 25/09/2009 06:31:42 PM 875 Views
Unless it was based on willpower as in a conflict within Tel'Aran'Rhiod - 25/09/2009 07:19:50 PM 1313 Views
Humph. - 26/09/2009 03:27:09 AM 1254 Views
She was overconfident - 26/09/2009 03:24:51 PM 1303 Views
A lie by Elaida? - 27/09/2009 02:31:36 PM 1514 Views
Re: A lie by Elaida? - 27/09/2009 02:50:49 PM 1308 Views
Re: A lie by Elaida? - 27/09/2009 03:01:06 PM 1233 Views
I don't think it covers things like that - 27/09/2009 04:10:05 PM 1297 Views
She believes what she said *NM* - 28/09/2009 04:51:52 AM 860 Views
Remember, perspective. - 29/09/2009 12:14:59 AM 1195 Views
It might well be true - 29/09/2009 12:38:20 AM 1299 Views
Well... that elicited quite a reaction. - 28/09/2009 06:25:52 AM 1155 Views
I had many of those same thoughts. - 28/09/2009 05:27:43 PM 1380 Views
Re: I had many of those same thoughts. - 28/09/2009 06:42:56 PM 1128 Views
Re: I had many of those same thoughts. - 28/09/2009 11:08:00 PM 1288 Views
I've just learned to skip any female POV's written by RJ - 29/09/2009 04:38:45 AM 1312 Views
Hmmm.... - 29/09/2009 05:30:44 AM 1382 Views
Re: Hmmm.... - 29/09/2009 06:26:17 AM 1373 Views
Ridiculous - 30/09/2009 12:34:07 AM 1185 Views
Very. - 30/09/2009 02:40:07 AM 1316 Views
Re: Hmmm.... - 30/09/2009 03:00:01 AM 1286 Views
Re: Hmmm.... - 30/09/2009 04:32:14 AM 1347 Views
Re: Hmmm.... - 01/10/2009 03:23:21 AM 1279 Views
Re: Hmmm.... - 01/10/2009 04:51:14 AM 1293 Views
Re: Hmmm.... - 03/10/2009 01:57:24 PM 1605 Views
That's Mesaana's purpose actually *NM* - 06/11/2009 07:03:12 AM 805 Views
Elaida, Formidable? - 29/09/2009 11:48:04 PM 1359 Views
How do you figure? - 30/09/2009 12:15:47 AM 1111 Views
Aside from successfuly orchastrate the coup what has she done? - 30/09/2009 12:35:07 AM 1300 Views
Re: Aside from successfuly orchastrate the coup what has she done? - 30/09/2009 02:29:37 AM 1224 Views
Broke the Black Ajah's hold on the Amyrlin seat??????? - 30/09/2009 06:09:08 PM 1194 Views
Ignore *NM* - 30/09/2009 06:20:12 PM 843 Views
Oh yeah, and... - 29/09/2009 04:22:57 AM 1422 Views
Egwene in this chapter... - 29/09/2009 05:04:35 AM 1344 Views
Re: Egwene in this chapter... - 29/09/2009 05:59:33 AM 1455 Views
Author thoughts - Audiobook versus reading - 29/09/2009 05:30:39 AM 1339 Views
Yes, I've felt very much the same *NM* - 29/09/2009 12:52:52 PM 968 Views
A lot of that is the narrator - 29/09/2009 04:36:47 PM 1397 Views
The Dark One's Touch - 30/09/2009 06:21:24 PM 1430 Views
Good point! *NM* - 30/09/2009 06:26:51 PM 880 Views
Re: The Dark One's Touch - 30/09/2009 06:44:53 PM 1198 Views
What about the person who has the ter'angreal dagger? - 30/09/2009 07:11:18 PM 1194 Views
Re: What about the person who has the ter'angreal dagger? - 30/09/2009 07:17:06 PM 1422 Views
The Irony of Elaida - 30/09/2009 11:10:08 PM 1321 Views
LOL, I agree. - 01/10/2009 02:47:18 AM 1279 Views

Reply to Message