More accurately, violent disgust.
So, Elaida is a power-obsessed despot. That's nothing new. But she used to be a formidable power-obsessed despot. Where is your knitting or your ivory figurines, Elaida? When she sent Alviarin crying to Mesaana in Crossroads of Twilight (and some people say nothing happened in that book...) I figured, 'this is what happens when you mess with this power-obsessed despot'. Elaida was a tyrannical egotist, but she got things done. Shrieking like a caricature over spilled soup on her carpet? Not impressive.
So, Elaida is a power-obsessed despot. That's nothing new. But she used to be a formidable power-obsessed despot. Where is your knitting or your ivory figurines, Elaida? When she sent Alviarin crying to Mesaana in Crossroads of Twilight (and some people say nothing happened in that book...) I figured, 'this is what happens when you mess with this power-obsessed despot'. Elaida was a tyrannical egotist, but she got things done. Shrieking like a caricature over spilled soup on her carpet? Not impressive.
But you saw this coming, surely? She was hardly stable in KoD, and Tarna more than implied that Elaida was drinking too much.
Her downward spiral began way back when Alviaring made her choose her Seat over the Tower's unity.
Sigh. Good old Pedron Niall. At least he died before we learned that he was a pedophile with erectile dysfunction or something equally character ruining. He died figuring out that the Seanchan were a threat, without having to meet them first, which I think is unique in the series thus far, isn't it?
Siuan did so too, IIRC, and that was based on Verin's report. Not as impressive as Niall, of course, who had less reliable sources to work with.
I guess if you can't make Egwene impressive, you can make her enemies so ridiculous one can't help but side with her. Also, I reckon this puts an end to any possibility that Elaida will finish this series in a position above that of scullery maid, unfortunately.
I dunno if this really serves the purpose of making Egwene more impressive/easier to support. Elaida was hardly easy to support before this.
Also, notice that this is from Egwene's PoV, and she is having such a violently negative reaction to what Elaida has become that it is quite likely that Elaida's firm command that servants come and clean the carpet sounded like a shriek to her.
Which brings me to my second point. In the last few years, and with Knife of Dreams leaving me not especially resentful towards the girl (don't get me wrong, the whole 'You do not break when you are spanked? Surely you must be our Amyrlin!' thing was ridiculous enough, but not directly Egwene's fault) I thought I was over this Egwene-hate thing, but this chapter just brought it back in spades.
But no one wants her to be Amyrlin because she is not being broken. They do admire that, and I don't find that surprising or unbelievable.
What is making her win though, is that she is bluntly pointing out what the Tower AS had only been thinking or whispering to close friends... Elaida has been a disaster, and the Tower is much worse than it should be under an even half-way competent Amyrlin.
Were we the ones who pulled down a sitting Amyrlin?
I don't really know what to say. What is your purpose here, Egwene? Are you saying you support Elaida's continued reign?
But she is saying that Elaida started it with her shady tactics in removing Siuan. Surely, in a fight, it matters who gave first offense?
Were we the ones who turned Warder against Warder?
I'll assume one of the sides was yours? The one that was leading an attack to rescue the Stilled Amyrlin and therefore initiated the hostilities?
We do not know that Siuan was stilled at that time.
More importantly, with no trial for the woman and a bunch of admitted nonsense being described as her crimes, why should the Greens and Blues have assumed that there was any legality to this deposition?
For all we know, there were vague worries of a Black Ajah coup, and in that, they would not have been far off the mark.
That Warders fought against Warders is totally Elaida's fault.
Were we the ones who failed to contain the Dragon Reborn?
Can someone remind me what Siuan was accused of that resulted in her being deposed and Stilled?
Can someone remind me what Siuan was accused of that resulted in her being deposed and Stilled?
Keeping the Dragon's Rebirth a secret. And a load of other crap like helping Taim escape and being a Darkfriend.
And what containment was Siuan to do? He had scarcely begun to expand his power-base then, and was doing so under the tutelage and guidance of Siuan's trusted envoy!
The false Amyrlin just turned back to her soup, smiling to herself, no doubt contemplating a fourth Oath to demand obedience. Couldn't she see how that would undermine the Tower itself? It would transform the Amyrlin from a leader to a despot.
Go on.
Explain to us how using magical compulsion to enforce obedience in your subjects is wrong.
No morning of victory for Elaida, I take it?
Go on.
Explain to us how using magical compulsion to enforce obedience in your subjects is wrong.
No morning of victory for Elaida, I take it?
Of course it is wrong! I fail to see how you ignore motive in your assessment of these actions.
Egwene was forced into a position where her death was a very possible finish to the story if the women who raised her fouled up. What she did is exactly what Rand did to Moiraine. He used the fact that she needed to stay close to him to blackmail her into an oath of obedience. And he was damn right to demand it because she was trying to make him dance to her tune, and the only person whose reputation and very life were at stake was him!
On the other hand, as far as Egwene knows, Elaida is demanding Oaths of obedience from everyone to clean up her own mess (Egwene knows nothing of Alviarin's role in breaking the Tower).
One was essentially self defense, against a bunch of women hell bent on pulling strings and staying in power no matter who lost their life. The other is an obvious ploy to gain complete control over all your subjects so all your wishes are fulfilled.
There's nothing incongruous in Egwene's anger at Elaida's proposed Oath.
It has been a while since I last felt this particular bewildered frustration.
Yeah, me too. Since the last Egwene debate, I think.
Your thoughts about TGS - chapter 2 *spoilers*
24/09/2009 03:17:07 PM
- 7101 Views
Mind-numbingly boring...
24/09/2009 04:22:52 PM
- 1851 Views
Agreed, but only because of the incredibly slow audio reading. FORTY-FIVE minutes for ONE chapter!!! *NM*
25/09/2009 06:08:27 AM
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EVERY Chapter in the entire series is read that way.
25/09/2009 01:40:07 PM
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Chapter summary
24/09/2009 04:31:01 PM
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sounds like its RJs work from the dialogue *NM*
24/09/2009 04:33:57 PM
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I should disagree
26/09/2009 10:34:58 PM
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Jordan left tons of background info in notes
27/09/2009 07:36:11 PM
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Re: Jordan left tons of background info in notes
27/09/2009 08:10:06 PM
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Her entry in Encyclopaedia wot makes no mention of her being amyrlin *NM*
28/09/2009 01:17:49 AM
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Jordan could have easily added that to her backstory after LOC. It's been at least ten years.
28/09/2009 09:46:34 PM
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Re: Jordan could have easily added that to her backstory after LOC. It's been at least ten years.
28/09/2009 10:04:02 PM
- 1264 Views
Can someone explain to me where Egwene developed this immense love for the Tower?
24/09/2009 04:44:28 PM
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Well, she's replaced everything else in her life with the Tower.
24/09/2009 04:47:05 PM
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I always thought it was the small town thing
24/09/2009 04:50:19 PM
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Could it be that Fain could have contaminated her in tFOH?
24/09/2009 04:51:56 PM
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So you're saying that an antagonist is being portrayed as idiotic in this series? No way!
24/09/2009 04:58:15 PM
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Re: Can someone explain to me where Egwene developed this immense love for the Tower?
24/09/2009 06:01:46 PM
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This made my morning happy.
24/09/2009 04:45:08 PM
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I think it's different.
24/09/2009 05:51:11 PM
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True.
24/09/2009 07:21:36 PM
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Re: True.
24/09/2009 07:30:06 PM
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I also think Egwene might free them from it once she becomes recognized Amyrlin *NM*
24/09/2009 08:36:55 PM
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Re: I think it's different.
25/09/2009 03:24:22 AM
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There's still a difference...
25/09/2009 04:28:55 AM
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Re: There's still a difference...
26/09/2009 12:30:28 PM
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But...
26/09/2009 03:44:31 PM
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In PoD, it is revealed that Alviarin makes Elaida swear obedience to her.
26/09/2009 07:48:01 PM
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Is Alviarin finished?
24/09/2009 04:52:31 PM
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Two possibilities that come to mind
24/09/2009 05:11:41 PM
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Egwene knows about the letter, and soon the BA hunters will too.
24/09/2009 07:46:34 PM
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She's got to be 'raised' to the shawl first, to take the 4 oaths.
24/09/2009 10:33:42 PM
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Not finished it yet
24/09/2009 05:42:18 PM
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Yes, Mesaana's plain white dress seems somewhat peculiar
24/09/2009 06:43:45 PM
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Are you kidding? Moridin would kill her
24/09/2009 10:50:34 PM
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I doubt it - I'm of the opinion that Moridin may be next on SH's "personal attentions" list
25/09/2009 05:16:38 PM
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If this is true, it could be a ploy
25/09/2009 03:06:45 AM
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I liked it *Spoilers*
24/09/2009 05:49:41 PM
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I think...
24/09/2009 07:01:42 PM
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Re: I think...
24/09/2009 07:33:34 PM
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Re: I think...
24/09/2009 08:00:09 PM
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Wasn't there a high turnover in War of Power as well?
24/09/2009 08:07:38 PM
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Surely worse happened in the War of Power though before the seals were laid
24/09/2009 07:58:54 PM
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Egwene is arrogant as ever...thinking Rand can't possibly get along without guidance *NM*
24/09/2009 08:25:24 PM
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is she wrong?
24/09/2009 08:34:44 PM
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The problem is that Egwene isn't honest with herself. Two afterthouts as edits
24/09/2009 08:43:38 PM
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Re: is she wrong?
25/09/2009 03:38:09 AM
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Re: is she wrong?
25/09/2009 04:30:28 AM
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I like Egwene but I didn't like her statement
25/09/2009 05:03:33 AM
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What will happen first: black ajah hunt ends or Seanchan attack the WT?
24/09/2009 08:38:43 PM
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I can never decide what I think will happen
24/09/2009 08:44:03 PM
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Re: I can never decide what I think will happen
24/09/2009 09:25:18 PM
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I disagree, the Rebels are better protected
24/09/2009 09:36:19 PM
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I agree with you. Rebels are harder to take (rebels have Asha'man too) *NM*
24/09/2009 09:59:10 PM
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Yet according to one of Min's visions, Carlinya gets made "property"
29/09/2009 03:09:28 PM
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Re: Yet according to one of Min's visions, Carlinya gets made "property"
29/09/2009 03:23:45 PM
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OK, I didn't remember the details correctly
29/09/2009 03:38:16 PM
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Re: OK, I didn't remember the details correctly
29/09/2009 04:11:22 PM
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The title of book 13...
24/09/2009 09:19:17 PM
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Swing and a miss.
24/09/2009 10:33:46 PM
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As said
25/09/2009 06:37:46 AM
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Both at once, I don't think it will be a neat A then B, or B then A
25/09/2009 03:53:30 AM
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I didn't catch any hints as to Mesaana's identity. Were there any?
24/09/2009 08:51:23 PM
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Also... this makes me miss RJ even more
24/09/2009 08:52:52 PM
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I can't wait to actually read the chapter-- I thought it was very well written *NM*
25/09/2009 12:18:48 AM
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Could Elaida pass a 4th Oath?
25/09/2009 05:13:08 AM
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I think it would serve as motivation for those who say "You don't have to like the Amrylin" to turn.
25/09/2009 06:08:19 AM
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The Black Ajah would never stand for it, even if the other sisters would
25/09/2009 06:38:19 AM
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Re: The Black Ajah would never stand for it, even if the other sisters would
26/09/2009 04:45:32 AM
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Fain as the source of much of the Tower's woes
25/09/2009 05:30:49 AM
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No one else thinks Fain has had any influence on Elaida's erratic behavior? *NM*
25/09/2009 05:32:05 PM
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What about Mesaana?
25/09/2009 06:03:41 PM
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Definitely Mesana-- but I was wondering if the Shadar Logoth taint leaked onto Elaida a little
25/09/2009 07:43:24 PM
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Mat vs Egwene
25/09/2009 03:34:35 PM
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Re: Mat vs Egwene
25/09/2009 03:38:39 PM
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Re: Mat vs Egwene
25/09/2009 03:40:32 PM
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Re: Mat vs Egwene
25/09/2009 04:16:16 PM
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That's not his argument though
25/09/2009 04:34:35 PM
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I think...
25/09/2009 03:47:26 PM
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Egwene and Mesaana
25/09/2009 06:07:37 PM
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Come now...even though Mesaana is whimpy for a Forsaken, she would wipe the floor with Egwene...
25/09/2009 06:10:13 PM
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Egwene would need to lead a circle or use an angreal to beat her. *NM*
25/09/2009 06:31:42 PM
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Unless it was based on willpower as in a conflict within Tel'Aran'Rhiod
25/09/2009 07:19:50 PM
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Well... that elicited quite a reaction.
28/09/2009 06:25:52 AM
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I had many of those same thoughts.
28/09/2009 05:27:43 PM
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Re: I had many of those same thoughts.
28/09/2009 06:42:56 PM
- 1128 Views
Re: I had many of those same thoughts.
28/09/2009 11:08:00 PM
- 1288 Views
She'll do everything to re-unite the Tower - except anything that could actually re-unite it
29/09/2009 02:26:10 AM
- 1374 Views
Hmmm....
29/09/2009 05:30:44 AM
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Re: Hmmm....
29/09/2009 06:26:17 AM
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Re: Hmmm....
30/09/2009 03:00:01 AM
- 1286 Views
Elaida, Formidable?
29/09/2009 11:48:04 PM
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How do you figure?
30/09/2009 12:15:47 AM
- 1111 Views
Aside from successfuly orchastrate the coup what has she done?
30/09/2009 12:35:07 AM
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Re: Aside from successfuly orchastrate the coup what has she done?
30/09/2009 02:29:37 AM
- 1224 Views
Oh yeah, and...
29/09/2009 04:22:57 AM
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The Dark One's Touch
30/09/2009 06:21:24 PM
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Re: The Dark One's Touch
30/09/2009 06:44:53 PM
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