Active Users:228 Time:29/03/2024 01:56:44 AM
Hmmm.... fionwe1987 Send a noteboard - 29/09/2009 05:30:44 AM
More accurately, violent disgust.

So, Elaida is a power-obsessed despot. That's nothing new. But she used to be a formidable power-obsessed despot. Where is your knitting or your ivory figurines, Elaida? When she sent Alviarin crying to Mesaana in Crossroads of Twilight (and some people say nothing happened in that book...) I figured, 'this is what happens when you mess with this power-obsessed despot'. Elaida was a tyrannical egotist, but she got things done. Shrieking like a caricature over spilled soup on her carpet? Not impressive.

But you saw this coming, surely? She was hardly stable in KoD, and Tarna more than implied that Elaida was drinking too much.
Her downward spiral began way back when Alviaring made her choose her Seat over the Tower's unity.

Sigh. Good old Pedron Niall. At least he died before we learned that he was a pedophile with erectile dysfunction or something equally character ruining. He died figuring out that the Seanchan were a threat, without having to meet them first, which I think is unique in the series thus far, isn't it?

Siuan did so too, IIRC, and that was based on Verin's report. Not as impressive as Niall, of course, who had less reliable sources to work with.
I guess if you can't make Egwene impressive, you can make her enemies so ridiculous one can't help but side with her. Also, I reckon this puts an end to any possibility that Elaida will finish this series in a position above that of scullery maid, unfortunately.

I dunno if this really serves the purpose of making Egwene more impressive/easier to support. Elaida was hardly easy to support before this.
Also, notice that this is from Egwene's PoV, and she is having such a violently negative reaction to what Elaida has become that it is quite likely that Elaida's firm command that servants come and clean the carpet sounded like a shriek to her.

Which brings me to my second point. In the last few years, and with Knife of Dreams leaving me not especially resentful towards the girl (don't get me wrong, the whole 'You do not break when you are spanked? Surely you must be our Amyrlin!' thing was ridiculous enough, but not directly Egwene's fault) I thought I was over this Egwene-hate thing, but this chapter just brought it back in spades.

But no one wants her to be Amyrlin because she is not being broken. They do admire that, and I don't find that surprising or unbelievable.

What is making her win though, is that she is bluntly pointing out what the Tower AS had only been thinking or whispering to close friends... Elaida has been a disaster, and the Tower is much worse than it should be under an even half-way competent Amyrlin.

Were we the ones who pulled down a sitting Amyrlin?

I don't really know what to say. What is your purpose here, Egwene? Are you saying you support Elaida's continued reign?
But she is saying that Elaida started it with her shady tactics in removing Siuan. Surely, in a fight, it matters who gave first offense?
Were we the ones who turned Warder against Warder?

I'll assume one of the sides was yours? The one that was leading an attack to rescue the Stilled Amyrlin and therefore initiated the hostilities?
We do not know that Siuan was stilled at that time.
More importantly, with no trial for the woman and a bunch of admitted nonsense being described as her crimes, why should the Greens and Blues have assumed that there was any legality to this deposition?
For all we know, there were vague worries of a Black Ajah coup, and in that, they would not have been far off the mark.
That Warders fought against Warders is totally Elaida's fault.
Were we the ones who failed to contain the Dragon Reborn?

Can someone remind me what Siuan was accused of that resulted in her being deposed and Stilled?

Keeping the Dragon's Rebirth a secret. And a load of other crap like helping Taim escape and being a Darkfriend.

And what containment was Siuan to do? He had scarcely begun to expand his power-base then, and was doing so under the tutelage and guidance of Siuan's trusted envoy!

The false Amyrlin just turned back to her soup, smiling to herself, no doubt contemplating a fourth Oath to demand obedience. Couldn't she see how that would undermine the Tower itself? It would transform the Amyrlin from a leader to a despot.

Go on.

Explain to us how using magical compulsion to enforce obedience in your subjects is wrong.

No morning of victory for Elaida, I take it?

Of course it is wrong! I fail to see how you ignore motive in your assessment of these actions.
Egwene was forced into a position where her death was a very possible finish to the story if the women who raised her fouled up. What she did is exactly what Rand did to Moiraine. He used the fact that she needed to stay close to him to blackmail her into an oath of obedience. And he was damn right to demand it because she was trying to make him dance to her tune, and the only person whose reputation and very life were at stake was him!
On the other hand, as far as Egwene knows, Elaida is demanding Oaths of obedience from everyone to clean up her own mess (Egwene knows nothing of Alviarin's role in breaking the Tower).
One was essentially self defense, against a bunch of women hell bent on pulling strings and staying in power no matter who lost their life. The other is an obvious ploy to gain complete control over all your subjects so all your wishes are fulfilled.
There's nothing incongruous in Egwene's anger at Elaida's proposed Oath.
It has been a while since I last felt this particular bewildered frustration.

Yeah, me too. Since the last Egwene debate, I think. :P
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Re: The problem is that Egwene isn't honest with herself. - 24/09/2009 08:46:09 PM 1412 Views
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Also... this makes me miss RJ even more - 24/09/2009 08:52:52 PM 1589 Views
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This was a truely beautiful chapter *NM* - 24/09/2009 10:22:48 PM 861 Views
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And therein lies Elaida's genius... - 25/09/2009 07:08:48 PM 1440 Views
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No one else thinks Fain has had any influence on Elaida's erratic behavior? *NM* - 25/09/2009 05:32:05 PM 889 Views
I agree. Fain is affecting her, for certain. NT *NM* - 28/09/2009 02:30:45 AM 926 Views
What about Mesaana? - 25/09/2009 06:03:41 PM 1201 Views
Mat vs Egwene - 25/09/2009 03:34:35 PM 1331 Views
Re: Mat vs Egwene - 25/09/2009 03:38:39 PM 1342 Views
Re: Mat vs Egwene - 25/09/2009 03:40:32 PM 1350 Views
Re: Mat vs Egwene - 25/09/2009 04:16:16 PM 1350 Views
We already saw Mat confront Egwene in Salidar. What more - 25/09/2009 04:18:21 PM 1461 Views
Re: We already saw Mat confront Egwene in Salidar. What more - 25/09/2009 04:37:04 PM 1361 Views
That's not his argument though - 25/09/2009 04:34:35 PM 1180 Views
Ah okay. - 25/09/2009 04:36:00 PM 1284 Views
She seemed okay with it in KoD - 25/09/2009 04:38:53 PM 1431 Views
I think... - 25/09/2009 03:47:26 PM 1435 Views
Nice ideas! *NM* - 25/09/2009 03:51:01 PM 1088 Views
That is really good idea - 25/09/2009 08:12:34 PM 1513 Views
Though... - 26/09/2009 01:32:18 PM 1387 Views
Re: Mat vs Egwene - 25/09/2009 06:15:56 PM 1203 Views
egwene and elaida's 4th oath - 25/09/2009 03:51:36 PM 1341 Views
Egwene's Hypocrisy here is astounding: - 29/09/2009 03:39:25 AM 1312 Views
Egwene and Mesaana - 25/09/2009 06:07:37 PM 1372 Views
Come now...even though Mesaana is whimpy for a Forsaken, she would wipe the floor with Egwene... - 25/09/2009 06:10:13 PM 1407 Views
Alright, I *may* have overlooked that significant point. - 25/09/2009 06:21:09 PM 1226 Views
Agreed - 26/09/2009 06:36:01 AM 1305 Views
Depends on where the battle takes place. TAR = Egwene win. - 02/10/2009 06:10:07 PM 1392 Views
Egwene would need to lead a circle or use an angreal to beat her. *NM* - 25/09/2009 06:31:42 PM 875 Views
Unless it was based on willpower as in a conflict within Tel'Aran'Rhiod - 25/09/2009 07:19:50 PM 1313 Views
Humph. - 26/09/2009 03:27:09 AM 1254 Views
She was overconfident - 26/09/2009 03:24:51 PM 1303 Views
A lie by Elaida? - 27/09/2009 02:31:36 PM 1514 Views
Re: A lie by Elaida? - 27/09/2009 02:50:49 PM 1308 Views
Re: A lie by Elaida? - 27/09/2009 03:01:06 PM 1233 Views
I don't think it covers things like that - 27/09/2009 04:10:05 PM 1297 Views
She believes what she said *NM* - 28/09/2009 04:51:52 AM 860 Views
Remember, perspective. - 29/09/2009 12:14:59 AM 1195 Views
It might well be true - 29/09/2009 12:38:20 AM 1299 Views
Well... that elicited quite a reaction. - 28/09/2009 06:25:52 AM 1155 Views
I had many of those same thoughts. - 28/09/2009 05:27:43 PM 1380 Views
Re: I had many of those same thoughts. - 28/09/2009 06:42:56 PM 1128 Views
Re: I had many of those same thoughts. - 28/09/2009 11:08:00 PM 1288 Views
I've just learned to skip any female POV's written by RJ - 29/09/2009 04:38:45 AM 1312 Views
Hmmm.... - 29/09/2009 05:30:44 AM 1382 Views
Re: Hmmm.... - 29/09/2009 06:26:17 AM 1372 Views
Ridiculous - 30/09/2009 12:34:07 AM 1185 Views
Very. - 30/09/2009 02:40:07 AM 1316 Views
Re: Hmmm.... - 30/09/2009 03:00:01 AM 1286 Views
Re: Hmmm.... - 30/09/2009 04:32:14 AM 1347 Views
Re: Hmmm.... - 01/10/2009 03:23:21 AM 1279 Views
Re: Hmmm.... - 01/10/2009 04:51:14 AM 1293 Views
Re: Hmmm.... - 03/10/2009 01:57:24 PM 1605 Views
That's Mesaana's purpose actually *NM* - 06/11/2009 07:03:12 AM 805 Views
Elaida, Formidable? - 29/09/2009 11:48:04 PM 1359 Views
How do you figure? - 30/09/2009 12:15:47 AM 1111 Views
Aside from successfuly orchastrate the coup what has she done? - 30/09/2009 12:35:07 AM 1300 Views
Re: Aside from successfuly orchastrate the coup what has she done? - 30/09/2009 02:29:37 AM 1224 Views
Broke the Black Ajah's hold on the Amyrlin seat??????? - 30/09/2009 06:09:08 PM 1194 Views
Ignore *NM* - 30/09/2009 06:20:12 PM 843 Views
Oh yeah, and... - 29/09/2009 04:22:57 AM 1422 Views
Egwene in this chapter... - 29/09/2009 05:04:35 AM 1344 Views
Re: Egwene in this chapter... - 29/09/2009 05:59:33 AM 1455 Views
Author thoughts - Audiobook versus reading - 29/09/2009 05:30:39 AM 1338 Views
Yes, I've felt very much the same *NM* - 29/09/2009 12:52:52 PM 968 Views
A lot of that is the narrator - 29/09/2009 04:36:47 PM 1396 Views
The Dark One's Touch - 30/09/2009 06:21:24 PM 1430 Views
Good point! *NM* - 30/09/2009 06:26:51 PM 880 Views
Re: The Dark One's Touch - 30/09/2009 06:44:53 PM 1198 Views
What about the person who has the ter'angreal dagger? - 30/09/2009 07:11:18 PM 1194 Views
Re: What about the person who has the ter'angreal dagger? - 30/09/2009 07:17:06 PM 1422 Views
The Irony of Elaida - 30/09/2009 11:10:08 PM 1321 Views
LOL, I agree. - 01/10/2009 02:47:18 AM 1279 Views

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