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Re: Here's how I see it: DomA Send a noteboard - 02/12/2015 04:46:54 PM

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I'd say each "level" is a range. A small range, with the upper end of a lower level butting up right against the lower level of the next highest one.

It's that. It's a continuous and linear scale, with each level covering an equal range. It's not stated black on white, but it's clear, notably when you see the life expectancy functions linearly, and that RJ made some comparisons by number of levels.

By the way, there was actually not a single mention in the notes Terez got at the library that the level system is more than RJ's meta-tool outside the fictional universe. Not once it's even hinted at that in the notes (or for that matter, the books) the White Tower uses a level system like this. I was a bit surprised that Harriet apparently decided it existed in the story. A lot of situations in the books seem to flagrantly contradict that (notably the numerous POV from sisters or even Forsaken that go out of their way to describe someone's strength by comparison rather than resorting to the scale, if it had existed. The vocabulary used to speak of strengths, whether by AS or AOLers, goes against that too. "As strong as a woman can be", "A sharp gap", "of not negligible strength" etc. It's all avoiding a formal scale, culturally . My guess is that they probably would have thought that vulgar/demeaning. No doubt there was a way to calculate precisely your strength, the way your calculate blood pressure, waistline, etc, but I don't think those numbers corresponded to "levels" nor that they were used by AS in daily life at all, in either age.

As for the WT, it's a strength gap that determines when deference/taking suggestions etc. begins. In the notes it said the gap starts at around 2 levels. The gap at which suggestions from a stronger sister become as good as orders is probably much larger than 2 levels (based on the way some of the stronger sisters tried to resist Cadsuane, I'd say it might as much as a gap of 6 to 8 levels)

In formal situations or when a definite hierarchy is required, sisters have ways to rank themselves, but in day-to-day situations, if falls back on personality, if the gap isn't large enough, and there's the other unwritten rule that a sister normally don't meddle in another's business.

I think the strength range covered by a level is larger than you imply when you say within a level they'd have to resort to duelling to decide exact strength. I think RJ was speaking of women who stood even closer than that in strength. RJ didn't need great precision (he would have assigned an exact strength to everyone, if he did), he invented that system largely to determine at a glance relationships betwen the AS, and eventually extended it, obviously to be able to keep track of the strength comparisons he was starting to include, and of certain details like gateways, etc. He devised the male levels, but by all evidence, he barely used the male scale at all in his notes.

I think he decided around the time of LOC (or before writing ACOS) to expand his original system (which I think covered only from the strength of Moiraine/Elaida at level 1 to what he saw then as the bottom level for the shawl at level 21). I think he likely started by subdividing his original scale to have a larger range of strengths for AS to use in Salidar or around Elaida, and with the Kin, the WF, the WO. This is when, indeed, strengths are really started to get discussed in the books.

I think this is when he built his "Aes Sedai bible", that is he created himself a bank of sisters, distributed roughly following his bell curve , assigned with an Ajah (to respect the proportions he had decided on), a level or range or levels, and occasionally other basic characteristics. He seems to have put a great deal of work into entering the new levels for women in his notes (the double system, we've surmised, was used to ensure no mistake and confusion between notes with the old system and notes with the new). Around the AS levels, he expanded the scale to cover all female strengths up to Lanfear, distributing the girls and the new stronger characters too, and he expanded it by the other end. My guess is that he set the last level at 66 to get 72 levels including the male ones, just because it was neat.

I think his notes assigning a strength to the male Forsaken (and the women) are from that time when he seemed somewhat enthusiastic about the new "complete" system. But it seems he never really bothered with it for the Asha'man, or extremely little. Male strengths are extremely rare in the notes.

Darius putting Morgase and Androl at level 66 is much too low (I think at level 66, a woman doesn't have the strength to do much at all with the OP, she just has the genetic abillity and can probably not be trained beyond touching the source, without involving an angreal, that is.

In a note relevant to Morgase's story, RJ said that below level 57, the ability to lift anything with the power (lifting stuff is a factor of comparison he used) drops to a feather. Morgase is at minimum 57, maybe a few levels above. She's very likely comparable to Sorilea. The difference is that Morgase doesn't have a personality that surrender control easily (like Nynaeve) and it would have been very hard for her to learn to grasp the source no matter what. As it was, her strength is way below the cut-off for the shawl, and even that to make Accepted. The AS awoke her ability for political motives, and I doubt they put that much effort into it when it was clear Morgase struggled. Sorilea, on the other hand, was taught as much as she could, and could perfectly embrace the Source at will and learn difficult weaves that she couldn't even make work. The WO understood that very weak women may not be able to channel much, but they still could pass on all their OP knowledge to their future pupils... I doubt the WO have lost weaves nearly as often as the WT did...

As for Androl, personally I suspect the last 6 levels aren't used for men. A level 60 man is comparable in what he can do with saidin to what a level 66 woman can.

My guess is that Androl is in the lower 50s or very high 40s.

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Sortable, searchable file of Channelers - 28/11/2015 10:01:57 PM 3450 Views
Outstanding job - 29/11/2015 04:15:17 PM 1212 Views
Re: Outstanding job - 29/11/2015 06:53:40 PM 1195 Views
Very impressive. Well done. - 29/11/2015 04:41:52 PM 1337 Views
Re: Very impressive. Well done. - 29/11/2015 06:54:02 PM 1233 Views
Quick Question - 30/11/2015 05:11:17 AM 1347 Views
Nope - 30/11/2015 05:44:04 AM 1351 Views
They do say it - 30/11/2015 10:32:48 AM 1528 Views
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Re: I added Rand and Lews Therin to the ++1 Strength - 01/12/2015 08:02:01 AM 1325 Views
Well, it also states that there are gradations within each level too - 01/12/2015 04:26:29 PM 1362 Views
Well maybe - 02/12/2015 06:31:05 AM 1330 Views
Here's how I see it: - 02/12/2015 08:34:54 AM 1387 Views
I agree - 02/12/2015 04:22:52 PM 1376 Views
Re: I agree - 02/12/2015 05:14:50 PM 1508 Views
It's always been confusing - 02/12/2015 06:00:01 PM 1476 Views
Re: It's always been confusing - 02/12/2015 07:27:11 PM 1451 Views
I wholeheartedly agree - 02/12/2015 08:07:39 PM 1254 Views
Re: Here's how I see it: - 02/12/2015 04:46:54 PM 1501 Views
Morgase - 03/12/2015 04:37:47 AM 1348 Views
I agree with you on this - 03/12/2015 03:22:22 PM 1191 Views
Re: Morgase - 03/12/2015 07:46:59 PM 1499 Views
I didn't realize he was being literal in that comment - 03/12/2015 09:29:52 PM 1323 Views
Re: Well maybe - 02/12/2015 03:52:49 PM 1431 Views
Re: Well maybe - 02/12/2015 04:42:37 PM 1480 Views
Probably - 02/12/2015 06:11:42 PM 1272 Views
Re: Probably - 02/12/2015 07:38:50 PM 1374 Views
Indeed - 02/12/2015 08:21:07 PM 1246 Views
Re: Indeed - 03/12/2015 04:08:03 AM 1191 Views
close enough to not debate about it - 03/12/2015 03:47:55 PM 1215 Views
Re: close enough to not debate about it - 03/12/2015 04:14:38 PM 1220 Views
I think you misunderstand what I'm saying - 03/12/2015 04:43:29 PM 1259 Views
Re: I think you misunderstand what I'm saying - 03/12/2015 05:41:17 PM 1296 Views
um, no - 03/12/2015 09:24:31 PM 1206 Views
You two seem like Egwene's interchangeable defenders to me; it's weird to see you fighting. - 04/12/2015 09:21:23 PM 1532 Views
That's on you... - 04/12/2015 09:46:51 PM 1246 Views
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Re: close enough to not debate about it - 05/12/2015 11:29:44 AM 1278 Views
Re: I added Rand and Lews Therin to the ++1 Strength - 03/12/2015 07:22:15 AM 1184 Views
Great job - 30/11/2015 05:45:27 AM 1203 Views
Re: Great job - 30/11/2015 03:22:09 PM 1216 Views
Made a few adjustments to add some presumed minimum/maximum levels *NM* - 30/11/2015 04:28:13 PM 811 Views
Some questions - 30/11/2015 05:18:00 PM 1212 Views
Re: Some questions - 30/11/2015 07:26:29 PM 1186 Views
Re: Some questions - 01/12/2015 08:05:01 AM 1403 Views
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Some more - 01/12/2015 05:24:40 PM 1303 Views
Re: Some more - 01/12/2015 07:34:20 PM 1312 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 12:27:40 AM 1322 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 02:26:53 AM 1257 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 08:24:49 AM 1287 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 05:54:49 PM 1334 Views
Re: Some more - 03/12/2015 04:26:45 AM 1190 Views
You said this much better than I did - 03/12/2015 03:53:57 PM 1196 Views
I think the men are much too strong - 02/12/2015 09:01:56 AM 1393 Views
Yes - 02/12/2015 03:06:44 PM 1225 Views
Re: Yes - 02/12/2015 04:45:20 PM 1321 Views
Re: Yes - 02/12/2015 06:39:43 PM 1363 Views
Re: Yes - 03/12/2015 03:56:23 AM 1165 Views
I think when characters quoted information from their world it gets muddled - 03/12/2015 04:19:43 PM 1279 Views
Shielding - 05/12/2015 11:19:40 AM 1157 Views
I feel like there is an RJ quote about this actually - 06/12/2015 06:41:35 PM 1158 Views
Re: I feel like there is an RJ quote about this actually - 07/12/2015 12:39:54 PM 1217 Views
seriously! - 07/12/2015 04:55:43 PM 1209 Views
Who should defer to whom? - 01/12/2015 08:17:22 PM 1381 Views
Interesting... - 02/12/2015 08:44:32 AM 1344 Views
I think there needs to be a pretty significant (5+ levels) difference - 02/12/2015 06:25:35 PM 1382 Views
Good job - 05/12/2015 08:43:09 PM 1736 Views
Some questions - 06/12/2015 12:28:46 AM 1239 Views
Can't offer much - 06/12/2015 12:33:29 AM 1556 Views
Cool. Hopefully Dom will see this... - 06/12/2015 08:58:39 PM 1147 Views
Re: Some questions - 06/12/2015 08:06:56 PM 1188 Views
Then there would be some mention of it, yes/ - 06/12/2015 08:56:10 PM 1178 Views
Not at all ... He clearly had a general sense of how it worked - 07/12/2015 03:28:35 AM 1126 Views
Re: Some questions - 07/12/2015 04:19:43 PM 1416 Views
yet we also know that some things are inherently different for men and women - 07/12/2015 08:15:26 PM 1128 Views
it probably has to do with the fact that the characters in the books are also obsessed with strength - 06/12/2015 07:58:20 PM 1237 Views
Sort of. - 06/12/2015 10:30:36 PM 1716 Views
Makes sense - 07/12/2015 12:38:54 AM 1146 Views
Clearly his strength rankings came in mid-series - 07/12/2015 07:39:59 PM 1358 Views
Re: Clearly his strength rankings came in mid-series - 10/12/2015 05:33:27 AM 1204 Views
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Who is the one Sharan? And I'm surprised so many Seanchan have listed strength levels. *NM* - 09/12/2015 02:42:51 AM 779 Views
Re: Who is the one Sharan? And I'm surprised so many Seanchan have listed strength levels. - 09/12/2015 02:31:18 PM 1229 Views
Not sure she can channel, though - 09/12/2015 03:22:17 PM 1061 Views
Re: Not sure she can channel, though - 09/12/2015 04:54:37 PM 1227 Views
duplicate post ignore *NM* - 09/12/2015 02:31:36 PM 689 Views
duplicate post ignore *NM* - 09/12/2015 02:31:55 PM 713 Views
so.... - 09/12/2015 06:10:41 AM 1225 Views
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Yes - 09/12/2015 03:46:30 PM 1139 Views
Some things to consider - 09/12/2015 04:18:50 PM 1143 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 05:43:35 AM 1121 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 06:28:49 AM 1080 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 11:53:51 AM 1118 Views
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Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 04:46:29 PM 1112 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 05:50:17 PM 1122 Views
plenty of weaker ones with notably strong Talents actually - 10/12/2015 06:26:03 PM 1202 Views
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and you are just rationalizing to make your point seem plausible - 11/12/2015 03:10:12 PM 1221 Views
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Not really - 11/12/2015 09:09:41 PM 1185 Views
You are trying to force fit thin evidence into a sweeping statement - 11/12/2015 10:13:13 PM 1210 Views
Re: You are trying to force fit thin evidence into a sweeping statement - 12/12/2015 06:46:05 AM 1127 Views
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Re: Some things to consider - 12/12/2015 06:19:15 AM 1175 Views
Hey ... I have no interest in making you look stupid! - 12/12/2015 03:15:26 PM 1147 Views
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Re: Yes, it's a sad thing to realize that this is pretty much the end of the road - 15/12/2015 06:01:58 AM 1149 Views
I'm actually perplexed - 15/12/2015 07:19:27 AM 1089 Views
Re: I'm actually perplexed - 17/12/2015 11:36:59 AM 1204 Views
LOL ... Amen! *NM* - 15/12/2015 03:54:55 PM 735 Views
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Yes and No - 09/12/2015 04:35:48 PM 1103 Views
Re: Yes and No - 09/12/2015 10:41:32 PM 1207 Views
Indeed - 09/12/2015 11:01:03 PM 1177 Views
Ajah Strength Index - 09/12/2015 10:45:29 PM 1171 Views
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Me too honestly - 10/12/2015 03:12:21 AM 1074 Views
Re: Me too honestly - 10/12/2015 04:59:42 AM 1122 Views
Re: Me too honestly - 10/12/2015 04:18:00 PM 1145 Views
Re: Ajah Strength Index - 10/12/2015 05:40:39 AM 1135 Views
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The Cleansing Circles ... some speculation here - 15/12/2015 05:52:14 PM 1116 Views
If I was Cadsuane I would have done it differently - 15/12/2015 10:01:07 PM 1153 Views
Aran'gar - 16/12/2015 01:11:17 AM 1281 Views
Re: Aran'gar - 16/12/2015 06:54:28 AM 1321 Views
mostly agree - 16/12/2015 06:27:06 PM 1176 Views
Re: Aran'gar - 16/12/2015 06:50:27 PM 1438 Views
Re: Aran'gar - 17/12/2015 10:07:48 AM 1344 Views
We do have some additional clues - 17/12/2015 06:26:20 PM 1332 Views
additional thought - 16/12/2015 06:49:04 PM 1122 Views
Does she know that? - 16/12/2015 06:58:24 PM 1281 Views
I'm speculating of course - 16/12/2015 07:37:10 PM 1169 Views
Strength by National origin - 16/12/2015 09:04:11 PM 1121 Views
Rebels v. Loyalists! - 16/12/2015 10:29:28 PM 1235 Views
Tamra's known hunters - 04/01/2016 06:58:17 PM 1207 Views
Known... - 05/01/2016 01:54:56 AM 1075 Views
Re: Known... - 05/01/2016 02:55:50 AM 1278 Views

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