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Re: I think you misunderstand what I'm saying fionwe1987 Send a noteboard - 03/12/2015 05:41:17 PM

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I'm not really "wishing" for anything here, I'm noting where I find discrepancy in how I read the text and what the Companion says regarding strength. RJ set the stage in many ways to show that stronger channelers were typically more bold, you can see that just by looking at the strength rankings and looking at how these individuals behaved.

RJ set no such stage. Moiraine, Egwene, Nynaeve, Rand... these people cover a substantial number of power levels, but show no actual difference in boldness. When Siuan lost her access to the OP completely, she was shown to be no less bold. Once she came back weaker, she was shown to be, if anything, even more bold.

RJ has his chief observer of the Aes Sedai, Egwene, voice contempt for the strength=any character trait system quite early. Moghedien is one of the first Forsaken we spend any amount of time with, and she's far stronger than the majority of the channelers we meet, but she is shown to be anything but bold. Asmodean is shown to be cowardly too, yet he too is way stronger than most we meet.

The strength-boldness correlation simply does not exist.


I found it odd from Mesaana's behavior that she was so strong in the power. She behaved as though she was less than the other Forsaken, even while talking about how she knew she "matched up in skill" she was admitting being afraid of Semirhage. I don't actually think Mesaana was particularly inept, she showed quite a bit of skill actually and created more chaos than any Forsaken save Graendal really. But the hiding, fearfulness and generally meek attitude went a long way toward assuming she wasn't as powerful in the OP.

We don't see her fearful at all. Even after being raped by Shaidar Haran, we don't exactly see her crumple do we?

She is hiding her face from Alviarin because her Aes Sedai disguise looks like her actual self. It makes great sense to not reveal that to an underling greedy for power.

Nothing in her behavior says anything about her strength in the OP.


I think what Anaiya's comment is supposed to mean is that being strong gives you a bit of swagger, that doesn't seem crazy to me, especially from a modern Aes Sedai. But I agree that we've got plenty of examples of strong people being inept as well as weak one's being effective ... look at Shemerin, she was a level 15, quite high for Aes Sedai, but was also totally inept! Something RJ had to go out of his way to explain (she's got one of the more flushed out entries in the Companion)

Swagger is not what Anaiya meant. She was specifically talking about picking a woman strong in the OP to be Amyrlin Seat, and she specifically says that the strong will that supposedly goes with strength will be a benefit to such a woman. The irony is pretty thick, because we see this from Siuan's PoV when she has no strength in the Power at all, yet she is manipulating Anaiya. RJ is subtly sniggering at Aes Sedai notions of the importance of strength.

Shemerin came later, and reinforced the point. But the point was there from the beginning.


It's exception when someone weaker is exceptional

Only in the minds of Aes Sedai and Aes Sedai trained. No Wise One is surprised that Sorilea is strong willed. Egwene brings up Sorilea and Bair and their strength of will how many times? She keeps marveling at it, but the point of that isn't to tell you strong willed women weak in the OP are rare. The point is that the Aes Sedai notion of the importance of OP strength is retarded.
, that's pretty consistent throughout the books, so much so that RJ went out of his way to point it out most of the time. Cadsuane had to tell us that Daigian had "one of the finest minds" in the Tower, yet she still spend 48 years in training (close to 2x the next slowest learner). All part of his illustration of her power level.

No... illustration of the retardedness of the Tower! I can't believe that you took Cadsuane's statement to mean "Daigian is exceptional". She clearly derides the system that would make stronger AS ignrore Daigian's mind, and talk freely around her. She fully intends to use that to her advantage. This does not mean she endorses the AS view that weak AS are next to worthless! Nor is she saying a weak AS with a fine mind is a rarity, because Kumira is also weak, also likely to be ignored, and also brilliant.
Mesaana had weak motivations for turning to the Shadow, did comparatively less than others during the WoP and generally hid behind an alliance with more powerful allies. Adds up to a weaker individual IMO.

Mesaana's motivation is no weaker than Asmodean's, or any number of others. During the WoP, her schools were considered to be hugely influential. She was one of the Shadow's prime administrators, remember?

But again... why does any of this have anything to do with OP strength?

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Sortable, searchable file of Channelers - 28/11/2015 10:01:57 PM 3728 Views
Outstanding job - 29/11/2015 04:15:17 PM 1457 Views
Re: Outstanding job - 29/11/2015 06:53:40 PM 1425 Views
Very impressive. Well done. - 29/11/2015 04:41:52 PM 1595 Views
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Quick Question - 30/11/2015 05:11:17 AM 1619 Views
Nope - 30/11/2015 05:44:04 AM 1696 Views
They do say it - 30/11/2015 10:32:48 AM 1772 Views
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Here's how I see it: - 02/12/2015 08:34:54 AM 1599 Views
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Re: Morgase - 03/12/2015 07:46:59 PM 1775 Views
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Re: Well maybe - 02/12/2015 03:52:49 PM 1707 Views
Re: Well maybe - 02/12/2015 04:42:37 PM 1755 Views
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close enough to not debate about it - 03/12/2015 03:47:55 PM 1481 Views
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I think you misunderstand what I'm saying - 03/12/2015 04:43:29 PM 1540 Views
Re: I think you misunderstand what I'm saying - 03/12/2015 05:41:17 PM 1549 Views
um, no - 03/12/2015 09:24:31 PM 1465 Views
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Re: Great job - 30/11/2015 03:22:09 PM 1483 Views
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Re: Some questions - 01/12/2015 08:05:01 AM 1647 Views
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Re: Some more - 01/12/2015 07:34:20 PM 1585 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 12:27:40 AM 1597 Views
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Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 05:54:49 PM 1595 Views
Re: Some more - 03/12/2015 04:26:45 AM 1386 Views
You said this much better than I did - 03/12/2015 03:53:57 PM 1464 Views
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Yes - 02/12/2015 03:06:44 PM 1448 Views
Re: Yes - 02/12/2015 04:45:20 PM 1556 Views
Re: Yes - 02/12/2015 06:39:43 PM 1610 Views
Re: Yes - 03/12/2015 03:56:23 AM 1415 Views
I think when characters quoted information from their world it gets muddled - 03/12/2015 04:19:43 PM 1541 Views
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I feel like there is an RJ quote about this actually - 06/12/2015 06:41:35 PM 1410 Views
Re: I feel like there is an RJ quote about this actually - 07/12/2015 12:39:54 PM 1463 Views
seriously! - 07/12/2015 04:55:43 PM 1463 Views
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Interesting... - 02/12/2015 08:44:32 AM 1603 Views
I think there needs to be a pretty significant (5+ levels) difference - 02/12/2015 06:25:35 PM 1635 Views
Good job - 05/12/2015 08:43:09 PM 1960 Views
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Cool. Hopefully Dom will see this... - 06/12/2015 08:58:39 PM 1386 Views
Re: Some questions - 06/12/2015 08:06:56 PM 1416 Views
Then there would be some mention of it, yes/ - 06/12/2015 08:56:10 PM 1408 Views
Not at all ... He clearly had a general sense of how it worked - 07/12/2015 03:28:35 AM 1340 Views
Re: Some questions - 07/12/2015 04:19:43 PM 1713 Views
yet we also know that some things are inherently different for men and women - 07/12/2015 08:15:26 PM 1384 Views
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Sort of. - 06/12/2015 10:30:36 PM 1960 Views
Makes sense - 07/12/2015 12:38:54 AM 1396 Views
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Not sure she can channel, though - 09/12/2015 03:22:17 PM 1298 Views
Re: Not sure she can channel, though - 09/12/2015 04:54:37 PM 1475 Views
duplicate post ignore *NM* - 09/12/2015 02:31:36 PM 813 Views
duplicate post ignore *NM* - 09/12/2015 02:31:55 PM 843 Views
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Yes - 09/12/2015 03:46:30 PM 1370 Views
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Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 06:28:49 AM 1345 Views
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Sorilea has always been shown as skilled - 10/12/2015 04:10:37 PM 1446 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 04:46:29 PM 1380 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 05:50:17 PM 1370 Views
plenty of weaker ones with notably strong Talents actually - 10/12/2015 06:26:03 PM 1429 Views
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Re: Some things to consider - 12/12/2015 06:19:15 AM 1433 Views
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I'm actually perplexed - 15/12/2015 07:19:27 AM 1329 Views
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Re: Me too honestly - 10/12/2015 04:18:00 PM 1399 Views
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Re: Aran'gar - 16/12/2015 06:50:27 PM 1718 Views
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Known... - 05/01/2016 01:54:56 AM 1334 Views
Re: Known... - 05/01/2016 02:55:50 AM 1546 Views

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