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Re: I think you misunderstand what I'm saying fionwe1987 Send a noteboard - 03/12/2015 05:41:17 PM

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I'm not really "wishing" for anything here, I'm noting where I find discrepancy in how I read the text and what the Companion says regarding strength. RJ set the stage in many ways to show that stronger channelers were typically more bold, you can see that just by looking at the strength rankings and looking at how these individuals behaved.

RJ set no such stage. Moiraine, Egwene, Nynaeve, Rand... these people cover a substantial number of power levels, but show no actual difference in boldness. When Siuan lost her access to the OP completely, she was shown to be no less bold. Once she came back weaker, she was shown to be, if anything, even more bold.

RJ has his chief observer of the Aes Sedai, Egwene, voice contempt for the strength=any character trait system quite early. Moghedien is one of the first Forsaken we spend any amount of time with, and she's far stronger than the majority of the channelers we meet, but she is shown to be anything but bold. Asmodean is shown to be cowardly too, yet he too is way stronger than most we meet.

The strength-boldness correlation simply does not exist.


I found it odd from Mesaana's behavior that she was so strong in the power. She behaved as though she was less than the other Forsaken, even while talking about how she knew she "matched up in skill" she was admitting being afraid of Semirhage. I don't actually think Mesaana was particularly inept, she showed quite a bit of skill actually and created more chaos than any Forsaken save Graendal really. But the hiding, fearfulness and generally meek attitude went a long way toward assuming she wasn't as powerful in the OP.

We don't see her fearful at all. Even after being raped by Shaidar Haran, we don't exactly see her crumple do we?

She is hiding her face from Alviarin because her Aes Sedai disguise looks like her actual self. It makes great sense to not reveal that to an underling greedy for power.

Nothing in her behavior says anything about her strength in the OP.


I think what Anaiya's comment is supposed to mean is that being strong gives you a bit of swagger, that doesn't seem crazy to me, especially from a modern Aes Sedai. But I agree that we've got plenty of examples of strong people being inept as well as weak one's being effective ... look at Shemerin, she was a level 15, quite high for Aes Sedai, but was also totally inept! Something RJ had to go out of his way to explain (she's got one of the more flushed out entries in the Companion)

Swagger is not what Anaiya meant. She was specifically talking about picking a woman strong in the OP to be Amyrlin Seat, and she specifically says that the strong will that supposedly goes with strength will be a benefit to such a woman. The irony is pretty thick, because we see this from Siuan's PoV when she has no strength in the Power at all, yet she is manipulating Anaiya. RJ is subtly sniggering at Aes Sedai notions of the importance of strength.

Shemerin came later, and reinforced the point. But the point was there from the beginning.


It's exception when someone weaker is exceptional

Only in the minds of Aes Sedai and Aes Sedai trained. No Wise One is surprised that Sorilea is strong willed. Egwene brings up Sorilea and Bair and their strength of will how many times? She keeps marveling at it, but the point of that isn't to tell you strong willed women weak in the OP are rare. The point is that the Aes Sedai notion of the importance of OP strength is retarded.
, that's pretty consistent throughout the books, so much so that RJ went out of his way to point it out most of the time. Cadsuane had to tell us that Daigian had "one of the finest minds" in the Tower, yet she still spend 48 years in training (close to 2x the next slowest learner). All part of his illustration of her power level.

No... illustration of the retardedness of the Tower! I can't believe that you took Cadsuane's statement to mean "Daigian is exceptional". She clearly derides the system that would make stronger AS ignrore Daigian's mind, and talk freely around her. She fully intends to use that to her advantage. This does not mean she endorses the AS view that weak AS are next to worthless! Nor is she saying a weak AS with a fine mind is a rarity, because Kumira is also weak, also likely to be ignored, and also brilliant.
Mesaana had weak motivations for turning to the Shadow, did comparatively less than others during the WoP and generally hid behind an alliance with more powerful allies. Adds up to a weaker individual IMO.

Mesaana's motivation is no weaker than Asmodean's, or any number of others. During the WoP, her schools were considered to be hugely influential. She was one of the Shadow's prime administrators, remember?

But again... why does any of this have anything to do with OP strength?

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Sortable, searchable file of Channelers - 28/11/2015 10:01:57 PM 3754 Views
Outstanding job - 29/11/2015 04:15:17 PM 1489 Views
Re: Outstanding job - 29/11/2015 06:53:40 PM 1460 Views
Very impressive. Well done. - 29/11/2015 04:41:52 PM 1619 Views
Re: Very impressive. Well done. - 29/11/2015 06:54:02 PM 1511 Views
Quick Question - 30/11/2015 05:11:17 AM 1645 Views
Nope - 30/11/2015 05:44:04 AM 1728 Views
They do say it - 30/11/2015 10:32:48 AM 1803 Views
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Here's how I see it: - 02/12/2015 08:34:54 AM 1624 Views
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Re: Morgase - 03/12/2015 07:46:59 PM 1808 Views
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Re: Well maybe - 02/12/2015 03:52:49 PM 1731 Views
Re: Well maybe - 02/12/2015 04:42:37 PM 1781 Views
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Re: Probably - 02/12/2015 07:38:50 PM 1661 Views
Indeed - 02/12/2015 08:21:07 PM 1552 Views
Re: Indeed - 03/12/2015 04:08:03 AM 1482 Views
close enough to not debate about it - 03/12/2015 03:47:55 PM 1506 Views
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I think you misunderstand what I'm saying - 03/12/2015 04:43:29 PM 1568 Views
Re: I think you misunderstand what I'm saying - 03/12/2015 05:41:17 PM 1573 Views
um, no - 03/12/2015 09:24:31 PM 1490 Views
You two seem like Egwene's interchangeable defenders to me; it's weird to see you fighting. - 04/12/2015 09:21:23 PM 1827 Views
That's on you... - 04/12/2015 09:46:51 PM 1497 Views
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Re: close enough to not debate about it - 05/12/2015 11:29:44 AM 1529 Views
Re: I added Rand and Lews Therin to the ++1 Strength - 03/12/2015 07:22:15 AM 1438 Views
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Re: Great job - 30/11/2015 03:22:09 PM 1509 Views
Made a few adjustments to add some presumed minimum/maximum levels *NM* - 30/11/2015 04:28:13 PM 976 Views
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Re: Some questions - 30/11/2015 07:26:29 PM 1485 Views
Re: Some questions - 01/12/2015 08:05:01 AM 1674 Views
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Some more - 01/12/2015 05:24:40 PM 1584 Views
Re: Some more - 01/12/2015 07:34:20 PM 1618 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 12:27:40 AM 1630 Views
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Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 08:24:49 AM 1594 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 05:54:49 PM 1629 Views
Re: Some more - 03/12/2015 04:26:45 AM 1406 Views
You said this much better than I did - 03/12/2015 03:53:57 PM 1491 Views
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Yes - 02/12/2015 03:06:44 PM 1473 Views
Re: Yes - 02/12/2015 04:45:20 PM 1584 Views
Re: Yes - 02/12/2015 06:39:43 PM 1640 Views
Re: Yes - 03/12/2015 03:56:23 AM 1445 Views
I think when characters quoted information from their world it gets muddled - 03/12/2015 04:19:43 PM 1573 Views
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I feel like there is an RJ quote about this actually - 06/12/2015 06:41:35 PM 1440 Views
Re: I feel like there is an RJ quote about this actually - 07/12/2015 12:39:54 PM 1507 Views
seriously! - 07/12/2015 04:55:43 PM 1489 Views
Who should defer to whom? - 01/12/2015 08:17:22 PM 1633 Views
Interesting... - 02/12/2015 08:44:32 AM 1635 Views
I think there needs to be a pretty significant (5+ levels) difference - 02/12/2015 06:25:35 PM 1671 Views
Good job - 05/12/2015 08:43:09 PM 1985 Views
Some questions - 06/12/2015 12:28:46 AM 1490 Views
Can't offer much - 06/12/2015 12:33:29 AM 1810 Views
Cool. Hopefully Dom will see this... - 06/12/2015 08:58:39 PM 1416 Views
Re: Some questions - 06/12/2015 08:06:56 PM 1449 Views
Then there would be some mention of it, yes/ - 06/12/2015 08:56:10 PM 1436 Views
Not at all ... He clearly had a general sense of how it worked - 07/12/2015 03:28:35 AM 1366 Views
Re: Some questions - 07/12/2015 04:19:43 PM 1756 Views
yet we also know that some things are inherently different for men and women - 07/12/2015 08:15:26 PM 1409 Views
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Sort of. - 06/12/2015 10:30:36 PM 1992 Views
Makes sense - 07/12/2015 12:38:54 AM 1425 Views
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Re: Who is the one Sharan? And I'm surprised so many Seanchan have listed strength levels. - 09/12/2015 02:31:18 PM 1512 Views
Not sure she can channel, though - 09/12/2015 03:22:17 PM 1321 Views
Re: Not sure she can channel, though - 09/12/2015 04:54:37 PM 1501 Views
duplicate post ignore *NM* - 09/12/2015 02:31:36 PM 827 Views
duplicate post ignore *NM* - 09/12/2015 02:31:55 PM 857 Views
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Yes - 09/12/2015 03:46:30 PM 1390 Views
Some things to consider - 09/12/2015 04:18:50 PM 1398 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 05:43:35 AM 1358 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 06:28:49 AM 1378 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 11:53:51 AM 1407 Views
Sorilea has always been shown as skilled - 10/12/2015 04:10:37 PM 1473 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 04:46:29 PM 1410 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 05:50:17 PM 1391 Views
plenty of weaker ones with notably strong Talents actually - 10/12/2015 06:26:03 PM 1453 Views
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and you are just rationalizing to make your point seem plausible - 11/12/2015 03:10:12 PM 1506 Views
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You are trying to force fit thin evidence into a sweeping statement - 11/12/2015 10:13:13 PM 1510 Views
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Re: Some things to consider - 12/12/2015 06:19:15 AM 1459 Views
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Yes, it's a sad thing to realize that this is pretty much the end of the road - 14/12/2015 04:40:50 PM 1383 Views
Re: Yes, it's a sad thing to realize that this is pretty much the end of the road - 15/12/2015 06:01:58 AM 1428 Views
I'm actually perplexed - 15/12/2015 07:19:27 AM 1352 Views
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LOL ... Amen! *NM* - 15/12/2015 03:54:55 PM 860 Views
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Re: Yes and No - 09/12/2015 10:41:32 PM 1508 Views
Indeed - 09/12/2015 11:01:03 PM 1447 Views
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Re: Me too honestly - 10/12/2015 04:59:42 AM 1385 Views
Re: Me too honestly - 10/12/2015 04:18:00 PM 1424 Views
Re: Ajah Strength Index - 10/12/2015 05:40:39 AM 1455 Views
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Re: Aran'gar - 16/12/2015 06:50:27 PM 1745 Views
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Known... - 05/01/2016 01:54:56 AM 1377 Views
Re: Known... - 05/01/2016 02:55:50 AM 1571 Views

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