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Re: Clearly his strength rankings came in mid-series Sidious Send a noteboard - 10/12/2015 05:33:27 AM

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This site has always been obsessed with power levels; it's amusing to see how many comments are on this post. I have never cared very much about power levels, and Dom said he never cared much either, but once we got our hands on the notes and saw all the detail on power rankings, making a list was just too tempting. So I guess the obsession rubbed off on me through Dom...

I didn't create this just to come up with the strength scale, I also wanted to look at how old some Aes Sedai were and their training times and nationality breakout etc ... Was a fun exercise to figure out who is Black Ajah and try and infer if strength level might play a role or if it was more heavily weighted toward specific nationalities etc ... Basically I wanted to look at as many data points as we have available cause I'm a nerd like that


I get it, and I did some of that on my half-assed spreadsheet. I wanted to do more but I had to do other stuff.

Some characters are more obsessed with strength than others. Considering the strengths RJ assigned to the Forsaken, it seems that they were kind of oddly not obsessed with strength. Most of the development of the Forsaken happened at a time when RJ hadn't really decided on their strengths, and I think it shows. (And not just in the BWB, where there was a half-assed effort to order the Forsaken by strength.)

The Aes Sedai hierarchy is based on strength, but then they have this weird custom where they're not supposed to talk about it, and RJ went so far as to have Eadyth say she felt the need to scrub her teeth after talking about it.

It was probably some time while RJ was writing books 5-7 that he felt the need to start making notes on Aes Sedai strengths. That would have been when he came up with the first system, with Elaida on top. Then somewhere between TPOD and COT he started using the new system. That's probably when he started trying to decide on Forsaken strengths.


I think it's pretty obvious that he started to explore that no earlier than TSR where we first start hearing a little about various strength levels in more specific detail, but the first 3 books we don't really hear much about it aside from big generalities. I think it's clear that RJ didn't have a formal system in place until TPOD, possibly TSR as we have a few hints in that book as we start to meet channelers outside of Aes Sedai and characters like Egwene start to actually pay attention to strength for the first time (i.e. it's in TSR where Egwene first gives thought to being stronger than Moiraine). By the time we get to later books it's practically obsessive from Elayne or any Aes Sedai to note the strength level of another woman.

There are close to 300 characters who have a specific strength level listed for them, and most of those strengths were explicitly laid out in the books too ... when you stop to think about how much work went into simply introducing 300 characters and mentioning a detail like that for all of them it's no surprise that so many fans are relatively obsessed with OP strength. The characters were fairly obsessed with it too!

I think the Forsaken are an interesting way of showing us that the top levels are all pretty much equals in terms of "who would win in a fight" ... skills and Talents and such would be vastly more important to individuals such as these, theoretically they all have the level of strength necessary to be a huge threat to any of the others so it's all kind of "shades of gray" IMO. Seems like at a certain point strength had little to do with effectiveness too. Basically anyone level 13 or above was strong enough to individually perform pretty much all of the OP weaves we knew of and was strong enough to withstand the Choedan Kal, beyond that level skill seems to be the only real differentiator. The Companion's strength listings for the Forsaken only seem to highlight that to me as there is a spread of 10 levels between the strongest and the weakest, yet there isn't a whole lot of effectiveness difference that isn't related to skill or Talent.


I think up to TFOH he had a basic system...
- average man equals approximately two women
- a channeler can be maybe more than ten times stronger than an average channeler in potential.

He changed this to...
- one man basically equal to one woman
- the difference between average and very high strength isn't that big... maybe three times but maybe even less.

Wheel of Time board admin
Fan of Lanfear
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Sortable, searchable file of Channelers - 28/11/2015 10:01:57 PM 3174 Views
Outstanding job - 29/11/2015 04:15:17 PM 877 Views
Re: Outstanding job - 29/11/2015 06:53:40 PM 849 Views
Very impressive. Well done. - 29/11/2015 04:41:52 PM 988 Views
Re: Very impressive. Well done. - 29/11/2015 06:54:02 PM 896 Views
Quick Question - 30/11/2015 05:11:17 AM 997 Views
Nope - 30/11/2015 05:44:04 AM 1001 Views
They do say it - 30/11/2015 10:32:48 AM 1182 Views
I added Rand and Lews Therin to the ++1 Strength - 30/11/2015 03:21:00 PM 840 Views
Re: I added Rand and Lews Therin to the ++1 Strength - 01/12/2015 08:02:01 AM 970 Views
Well, it also states that there are gradations within each level too - 01/12/2015 04:26:29 PM 1028 Views
Well maybe - 02/12/2015 06:31:05 AM 956 Views
Here's how I see it: - 02/12/2015 08:34:54 AM 1045 Views
I agree - 02/12/2015 04:22:52 PM 995 Views
Re: I agree - 02/12/2015 05:14:50 PM 1149 Views
It's always been confusing - 02/12/2015 06:00:01 PM 1096 Views
Re: It's always been confusing - 02/12/2015 07:27:11 PM 1119 Views
I wholeheartedly agree - 02/12/2015 08:07:39 PM 916 Views
Re: Here's how I see it: - 02/12/2015 04:46:54 PM 1156 Views
Morgase - 03/12/2015 04:37:47 AM 973 Views
I agree with you on this - 03/12/2015 03:22:22 PM 849 Views
Re: Morgase - 03/12/2015 07:46:59 PM 1115 Views
I didn't realize he was being literal in that comment - 03/12/2015 09:29:52 PM 967 Views
Re: Well maybe - 02/12/2015 03:52:49 PM 1068 Views
Re: Well maybe - 02/12/2015 04:42:37 PM 1134 Views
Probably - 02/12/2015 06:11:42 PM 918 Views
Re: Probably - 02/12/2015 07:38:50 PM 1059 Views
Indeed - 02/12/2015 08:21:07 PM 923 Views
Re: Indeed - 03/12/2015 04:08:03 AM 850 Views
close enough to not debate about it - 03/12/2015 03:47:55 PM 875 Views
Re: close enough to not debate about it - 03/12/2015 04:14:38 PM 875 Views
I think you misunderstand what I'm saying - 03/12/2015 04:43:29 PM 909 Views
Re: I think you misunderstand what I'm saying - 03/12/2015 05:41:17 PM 954 Views
um, no - 03/12/2015 09:24:31 PM 868 Views
You two seem like Egwene's interchangeable defenders to me; it's weird to see you fighting. - 04/12/2015 09:21:23 PM 1069 Views
That's on you... - 04/12/2015 09:46:51 PM 889 Views
We've been arguing on the forums for like 10 years - 06/12/2015 07:36:55 PM 841 Views
It's Cannoli, Darius - 06/12/2015 08:53:06 PM 870 Views
LOL *NM* - 07/12/2015 03:26:40 AM 553 Views
Some points - 05/12/2015 11:14:30 AM 915 Views
Re: close enough to not debate about it - 05/12/2015 11:29:44 AM 939 Views
Re: I added Rand and Lews Therin to the ++1 Strength - 03/12/2015 07:22:15 AM 843 Views
Great job - 30/11/2015 05:45:27 AM 880 Views
Re: Great job - 30/11/2015 03:22:09 PM 860 Views
Made a few adjustments to add some presumed minimum/maximum levels *NM* - 30/11/2015 04:28:13 PM 602 Views
Some questions - 30/11/2015 05:18:00 PM 888 Views
Re: Some questions - 30/11/2015 07:26:29 PM 850 Views
Re: Some questions - 01/12/2015 08:05:01 AM 1053 Views
That's why I added another column to it - 01/12/2015 04:25:04 PM 924 Views
Some more - 01/12/2015 05:24:40 PM 937 Views
Re: Some more - 01/12/2015 07:34:20 PM 989 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 12:27:40 AM 983 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 02:26:53 AM 922 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 08:24:49 AM 924 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 05:54:49 PM 992 Views
Re: Some more - 03/12/2015 04:26:45 AM 829 Views
You said this much better than I did - 03/12/2015 03:53:57 PM 848 Views
I think the men are much too strong - 02/12/2015 09:01:56 AM 1043 Views
Yes - 02/12/2015 03:06:44 PM 898 Views
Re: Yes - 02/12/2015 04:45:20 PM 973 Views
Re: Yes - 02/12/2015 06:39:43 PM 1016 Views
Re: Yes - 03/12/2015 03:56:23 AM 845 Views
I think when characters quoted information from their world it gets muddled - 03/12/2015 04:19:43 PM 880 Views
Shielding - 05/12/2015 11:19:40 AM 846 Views
I feel like there is an RJ quote about this actually - 06/12/2015 06:41:35 PM 824 Views
Re: I feel like there is an RJ quote about this actually - 07/12/2015 12:39:54 PM 862 Views
seriously! - 07/12/2015 04:55:43 PM 881 Views
Who should defer to whom? - 01/12/2015 08:17:22 PM 1060 Views
Interesting... - 02/12/2015 08:44:32 AM 1003 Views
I think there needs to be a pretty significant (5+ levels) difference - 02/12/2015 06:25:35 PM 1053 Views
Good job - 05/12/2015 08:43:09 PM 1232 Views
Some questions - 06/12/2015 12:28:46 AM 896 Views
Can't offer much - 06/12/2015 12:33:29 AM 1088 Views
Cool. Hopefully Dom will see this... - 06/12/2015 08:58:39 PM 785 Views
Re: Some questions - 06/12/2015 08:06:56 PM 835 Views
Then there would be some mention of it, yes/ - 06/12/2015 08:56:10 PM 789 Views
Not at all ... He clearly had a general sense of how it worked - 07/12/2015 03:28:35 AM 801 Views
Re: Some questions - 07/12/2015 04:19:43 PM 1061 Views
it probably has to do with the fact that the characters in the books are also obsessed with strength - 06/12/2015 07:58:20 PM 913 Views
Sort of. - 06/12/2015 10:30:36 PM 1244 Views
Makes sense - 07/12/2015 12:38:54 AM 809 Views
Clearly his strength rankings came in mid-series - 07/12/2015 07:39:59 PM 1020 Views
Re: Clearly his strength rankings came in mid-series - 10/12/2015 05:33:27 AM 857 Views
Probably something along those lines - 10/12/2015 03:44:48 PM 775 Views
Lifespan question (Spoiler) - 08/12/2015 05:42:41 PM 796 Views
Moiraine... - 09/12/2015 02:28:50 AM 857 Views
That too is possible - 09/12/2015 03:02:12 PM 832 Views
Some random trends/data points - 08/12/2015 08:39:14 PM 817 Views
Who is the one Sharan? And I'm surprised so many Seanchan have listed strength levels. *NM* - 09/12/2015 02:42:51 AM 576 Views
Re: Who is the one Sharan? And I'm surprised so many Seanchan have listed strength levels. - 09/12/2015 02:31:18 PM 879 Views
Not sure she can channel, though - 09/12/2015 03:22:17 PM 744 Views
Re: Not sure she can channel, though - 09/12/2015 04:54:37 PM 895 Views
duplicate post ignore *NM* - 09/12/2015 02:31:36 PM 491 Views
duplicate post ignore *NM* - 09/12/2015 02:31:55 PM 528 Views
so.... - 09/12/2015 06:10:41 AM 882 Views
Nope... - 09/12/2015 03:24:07 PM 850 Views
Yes - 09/12/2015 03:46:30 PM 823 Views
Some things to consider - 09/12/2015 04:18:50 PM 812 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 05:43:35 AM 788 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 06:28:49 AM 751 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 11:53:51 AM 789 Views
Sorilea has always been shown as skilled - 10/12/2015 04:10:37 PM 820 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 04:46:29 PM 763 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 05:50:17 PM 787 Views
plenty of weaker ones with notably strong Talents actually - 10/12/2015 06:26:03 PM 880 Views
This is a flawed list - 11/12/2015 05:14:47 AM 785 Views
and you are just rationalizing to make your point seem plausible - 11/12/2015 03:10:12 PM 878 Views
another point about Talents (unrelated to the Strength question) - 11/12/2015 06:06:42 PM 972 Views
Not really - 11/12/2015 09:09:41 PM 820 Views
You are trying to force fit thin evidence into a sweeping statement - 11/12/2015 10:13:13 PM 855 Views
Re: You are trying to force fit thin evidence into a sweeping statement - 12/12/2015 06:46:05 AM 809 Views
Let's face it a body builder ninja is sort of funny to think about - 12/12/2015 02:55:37 PM 894 Views
Some quotes - 12/12/2015 01:18:41 AM 794 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 12/12/2015 03:18:30 AM 848 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 12/12/2015 06:19:15 AM 841 Views
Hey ... I have no interest in making you look stupid! - 12/12/2015 03:15:26 PM 799 Views
Re: Hey ... I have no interest in making you look stupid! - 13/12/2015 11:26:17 AM 815 Views
Yes, it's a sad thing to realize that this is pretty much the end of the road - 14/12/2015 04:40:50 PM 788 Views
Re: Yes, it's a sad thing to realize that this is pretty much the end of the road - 15/12/2015 06:01:58 AM 805 Views
I'm actually perplexed - 15/12/2015 07:19:27 AM 735 Views
Re: I'm actually perplexed - 17/12/2015 11:36:59 AM 841 Views
LOL ... Amen! *NM* - 15/12/2015 03:54:55 PM 533 Views
I don't think Elayne was that Strong in TSR - 10/12/2015 04:55:19 PM 804 Views
Yes and No - 09/12/2015 04:35:48 PM 787 Views
Re: Yes and No - 09/12/2015 10:41:32 PM 862 Views
Indeed - 09/12/2015 11:01:03 PM 808 Views
Ajah Strength Index - 09/12/2015 10:45:29 PM 854 Views
Greens... - 10/12/2015 12:24:11 AM 806 Views
Me too honestly - 10/12/2015 03:12:21 AM 737 Views
Re: Me too honestly - 10/12/2015 04:59:42 AM 802 Views
Re: Me too honestly - 10/12/2015 04:18:00 PM 770 Views
Re: Ajah Strength Index - 10/12/2015 05:40:39 AM 836 Views
I'm not so sure you'd have a chioce - 10/12/2015 04:01:35 PM 755 Views
Liandrin's 13 - 10/12/2015 09:14:50 PM 936 Views
Explain - 11/12/2015 05:16:55 AM 872 Views
Several reasons ... Edited for clarity - 11/12/2015 02:54:58 PM 885 Views
Bowl of the Winds Circle - 14/12/2015 09:41:33 PM 811 Views
The Cleansing Circles ... some speculation here - 15/12/2015 05:52:14 PM 776 Views
If I was Cadsuane I would have done it differently - 15/12/2015 10:01:07 PM 813 Views
Aran'gar - 16/12/2015 01:11:17 AM 938 Views
Re: Aran'gar - 16/12/2015 06:54:28 AM 841 Views
mostly agree - 16/12/2015 06:27:06 PM 833 Views
Re: Aran'gar - 16/12/2015 06:50:27 PM 944 Views
Re: Aran'gar - 17/12/2015 10:07:48 AM 985 Views
We do have some additional clues - 17/12/2015 06:26:20 PM 1009 Views
additional thought - 16/12/2015 06:49:04 PM 765 Views
Does she know that? - 16/12/2015 06:58:24 PM 929 Views
I'm speculating of course - 16/12/2015 07:37:10 PM 833 Views
Strength by National origin - 16/12/2015 09:04:11 PM 774 Views
Rebels v. Loyalists! - 16/12/2015 10:29:28 PM 912 Views
Tamra's known hunters - 04/01/2016 06:58:17 PM 864 Views
Known... - 05/01/2016 01:54:56 AM 728 Views
Re: Known... - 05/01/2016 02:55:50 AM 887 Views

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