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Re: Clearly his strength rankings came in mid-series Sidious Send a noteboard - 10/12/2015 05:33:27 AM

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This site has always been obsessed with power levels; it's amusing to see how many comments are on this post. I have never cared very much about power levels, and Dom said he never cared much either, but once we got our hands on the notes and saw all the detail on power rankings, making a list was just too tempting. So I guess the obsession rubbed off on me through Dom...

I didn't create this just to come up with the strength scale, I also wanted to look at how old some Aes Sedai were and their training times and nationality breakout etc ... Was a fun exercise to figure out who is Black Ajah and try and infer if strength level might play a role or if it was more heavily weighted toward specific nationalities etc ... Basically I wanted to look at as many data points as we have available cause I'm a nerd like that


I get it, and I did some of that on my half-assed spreadsheet. I wanted to do more but I had to do other stuff.

Some characters are more obsessed with strength than others. Considering the strengths RJ assigned to the Forsaken, it seems that they were kind of oddly not obsessed with strength. Most of the development of the Forsaken happened at a time when RJ hadn't really decided on their strengths, and I think it shows. (And not just in the BWB, where there was a half-assed effort to order the Forsaken by strength.)

The Aes Sedai hierarchy is based on strength, but then they have this weird custom where they're not supposed to talk about it, and RJ went so far as to have Eadyth say she felt the need to scrub her teeth after talking about it.

It was probably some time while RJ was writing books 5-7 that he felt the need to start making notes on Aes Sedai strengths. That would have been when he came up with the first system, with Elaida on top. Then somewhere between TPOD and COT he started using the new system. That's probably when he started trying to decide on Forsaken strengths.


I think it's pretty obvious that he started to explore that no earlier than TSR where we first start hearing a little about various strength levels in more specific detail, but the first 3 books we don't really hear much about it aside from big generalities. I think it's clear that RJ didn't have a formal system in place until TPOD, possibly TSR as we have a few hints in that book as we start to meet channelers outside of Aes Sedai and characters like Egwene start to actually pay attention to strength for the first time (i.e. it's in TSR where Egwene first gives thought to being stronger than Moiraine). By the time we get to later books it's practically obsessive from Elayne or any Aes Sedai to note the strength level of another woman.

There are close to 300 characters who have a specific strength level listed for them, and most of those strengths were explicitly laid out in the books too ... when you stop to think about how much work went into simply introducing 300 characters and mentioning a detail like that for all of them it's no surprise that so many fans are relatively obsessed with OP strength. The characters were fairly obsessed with it too!

I think the Forsaken are an interesting way of showing us that the top levels are all pretty much equals in terms of "who would win in a fight" ... skills and Talents and such would be vastly more important to individuals such as these, theoretically they all have the level of strength necessary to be a huge threat to any of the others so it's all kind of "shades of gray" IMO. Seems like at a certain point strength had little to do with effectiveness too. Basically anyone level 13 or above was strong enough to individually perform pretty much all of the OP weaves we knew of and was strong enough to withstand the Choedan Kal, beyond that level skill seems to be the only real differentiator. The Companion's strength listings for the Forsaken only seem to highlight that to me as there is a spread of 10 levels between the strongest and the weakest, yet there isn't a whole lot of effectiveness difference that isn't related to skill or Talent.


I think up to TFOH he had a basic system...
- average man equals approximately two women
- a channeler can be maybe more than ten times stronger than an average channeler in potential.

He changed this to...
- one man basically equal to one woman
- the difference between average and very high strength isn't that big... maybe three times but maybe even less.

Wheel of Time board admin
Fan of Lanfear
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Sortable, searchable file of Channelers - 28/11/2015 10:01:57 PM 3729 Views
Outstanding job - 29/11/2015 04:15:17 PM 1459 Views
Re: Outstanding job - 29/11/2015 06:53:40 PM 1425 Views
Very impressive. Well done. - 29/11/2015 04:41:52 PM 1597 Views
Re: Very impressive. Well done. - 29/11/2015 06:54:02 PM 1484 Views
Quick Question - 30/11/2015 05:11:17 AM 1621 Views
Nope - 30/11/2015 05:44:04 AM 1696 Views
They do say it - 30/11/2015 10:32:48 AM 1775 Views
I added Rand and Lews Therin to the ++1 Strength - 30/11/2015 03:21:00 PM 1466 Views
Re: I added Rand and Lews Therin to the ++1 Strength - 01/12/2015 08:02:01 AM 1581 Views
Well, it also states that there are gradations within each level too - 01/12/2015 04:26:29 PM 1606 Views
Well maybe - 02/12/2015 06:31:05 AM 1600 Views
Here's how I see it: - 02/12/2015 08:34:54 AM 1599 Views
I agree - 02/12/2015 04:22:52 PM 1626 Views
Re: I agree - 02/12/2015 05:14:50 PM 1802 Views
It's always been confusing - 02/12/2015 06:00:01 PM 1749 Views
Re: It's always been confusing - 02/12/2015 07:27:11 PM 1756 Views
I wholeheartedly agree - 02/12/2015 08:07:39 PM 1547 Views
Re: Here's how I see it: - 02/12/2015 04:46:54 PM 1801 Views
Morgase - 03/12/2015 04:37:47 AM 1656 Views
I agree with you on this - 03/12/2015 03:22:22 PM 1488 Views
Re: Morgase - 03/12/2015 07:46:59 PM 1775 Views
I didn't realize he was being literal in that comment - 03/12/2015 09:29:52 PM 1591 Views
Re: Well maybe - 02/12/2015 03:52:49 PM 1707 Views
Re: Well maybe - 02/12/2015 04:42:37 PM 1755 Views
Probably - 02/12/2015 06:11:42 PM 1522 Views
Re: Probably - 02/12/2015 07:38:50 PM 1638 Views
Indeed - 02/12/2015 08:21:07 PM 1526 Views
Re: Indeed - 03/12/2015 04:08:03 AM 1454 Views
close enough to not debate about it - 03/12/2015 03:47:55 PM 1481 Views
Re: close enough to not debate about it - 03/12/2015 04:14:38 PM 1468 Views
I think you misunderstand what I'm saying - 03/12/2015 04:43:29 PM 1541 Views
Re: I think you misunderstand what I'm saying - 03/12/2015 05:41:17 PM 1551 Views
um, no - 03/12/2015 09:24:31 PM 1465 Views
You two seem like Egwene's interchangeable defenders to me; it's weird to see you fighting. - 04/12/2015 09:21:23 PM 1807 Views
That's on you... - 04/12/2015 09:46:51 PM 1475 Views
We've been arguing on the forums for like 10 years - 06/12/2015 07:36:55 PM 1460 Views
It's Cannoli, Darius - 06/12/2015 08:53:06 PM 1460 Views
LOL *NM* - 07/12/2015 03:26:40 AM 880 Views
Some points - 05/12/2015 11:14:30 AM 1485 Views
Re: close enough to not debate about it - 05/12/2015 11:29:44 AM 1504 Views
Re: I added Rand and Lews Therin to the ++1 Strength - 03/12/2015 07:22:15 AM 1415 Views
Great job - 30/11/2015 05:45:27 AM 1472 Views
Re: Great job - 30/11/2015 03:22:09 PM 1486 Views
Made a few adjustments to add some presumed minimum/maximum levels *NM* - 30/11/2015 04:28:13 PM 960 Views
Some questions - 30/11/2015 05:18:00 PM 1452 Views
Re: Some questions - 30/11/2015 07:26:29 PM 1459 Views
Re: Some questions - 01/12/2015 08:05:01 AM 1649 Views
That's why I added another column to it - 01/12/2015 04:25:04 PM 1535 Views
Some more - 01/12/2015 05:24:40 PM 1554 Views
Re: Some more - 01/12/2015 07:34:20 PM 1585 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 12:27:40 AM 1597 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 02:26:53 AM 1523 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 08:24:49 AM 1564 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 05:54:49 PM 1595 Views
Re: Some more - 03/12/2015 04:26:45 AM 1386 Views
You said this much better than I did - 03/12/2015 03:53:57 PM 1467 Views
I think the men are much too strong - 02/12/2015 09:01:56 AM 1628 Views
Yes - 02/12/2015 03:06:44 PM 1448 Views
Re: Yes - 02/12/2015 04:45:20 PM 1556 Views
Re: Yes - 02/12/2015 06:39:43 PM 1612 Views
Re: Yes - 03/12/2015 03:56:23 AM 1417 Views
I think when characters quoted information from their world it gets muddled - 03/12/2015 04:19:43 PM 1541 Views
Shielding - 05/12/2015 11:19:40 AM 1388 Views
I feel like there is an RJ quote about this actually - 06/12/2015 06:41:35 PM 1413 Views
Re: I feel like there is an RJ quote about this actually - 07/12/2015 12:39:54 PM 1465 Views
seriously! - 07/12/2015 04:55:43 PM 1465 Views
Who should defer to whom? - 01/12/2015 08:17:22 PM 1610 Views
Interesting... - 02/12/2015 08:44:32 AM 1605 Views
I think there needs to be a pretty significant (5+ levels) difference - 02/12/2015 06:25:35 PM 1637 Views
Good job - 05/12/2015 08:43:09 PM 1960 Views
Some questions - 06/12/2015 12:28:46 AM 1466 Views
Can't offer much - 06/12/2015 12:33:29 AM 1782 Views
Cool. Hopefully Dom will see this... - 06/12/2015 08:58:39 PM 1386 Views
Re: Some questions - 06/12/2015 08:06:56 PM 1416 Views
Then there would be some mention of it, yes/ - 06/12/2015 08:56:10 PM 1410 Views
Not at all ... He clearly had a general sense of how it worked - 07/12/2015 03:28:35 AM 1340 Views
Re: Some questions - 07/12/2015 04:19:43 PM 1714 Views
yet we also know that some things are inherently different for men and women - 07/12/2015 08:15:26 PM 1387 Views
it probably has to do with the fact that the characters in the books are also obsessed with strength - 06/12/2015 07:58:20 PM 1491 Views
Sort of. - 06/12/2015 10:30:36 PM 1960 Views
Makes sense - 07/12/2015 12:38:54 AM 1398 Views
Clearly his strength rankings came in mid-series - 07/12/2015 07:39:59 PM 1607 Views
Re: Clearly his strength rankings came in mid-series - 10/12/2015 05:33:27 AM 1447 Views
Probably something along those lines - 10/12/2015 03:44:48 PM 1322 Views
Lifespan question (Spoiler) - 08/12/2015 05:42:41 PM 1381 Views
Moiraine... - 09/12/2015 02:28:50 AM 1447 Views
That too is possible - 09/12/2015 03:02:12 PM 1395 Views
Some random trends/data points - 08/12/2015 08:39:14 PM 1414 Views
Who is the one Sharan? And I'm surprised so many Seanchan have listed strength levels. *NM* - 09/12/2015 02:42:51 AM 903 Views
Re: Who is the one Sharan? And I'm surprised so many Seanchan have listed strength levels. - 09/12/2015 02:31:18 PM 1477 Views
Not sure she can channel, though - 09/12/2015 03:22:17 PM 1298 Views
Re: Not sure she can channel, though - 09/12/2015 04:54:37 PM 1477 Views
duplicate post ignore *NM* - 09/12/2015 02:31:36 PM 813 Views
duplicate post ignore *NM* - 09/12/2015 02:31:55 PM 843 Views
so.... - 09/12/2015 06:10:41 AM 1469 Views
Nope... - 09/12/2015 03:24:07 PM 1447 Views
Yes - 09/12/2015 03:46:30 PM 1370 Views
Some things to consider - 09/12/2015 04:18:50 PM 1374 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 05:43:35 AM 1337 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 06:28:49 AM 1345 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 11:53:51 AM 1383 Views
Sorilea has always been shown as skilled - 10/12/2015 04:10:37 PM 1446 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 04:46:29 PM 1380 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 05:50:17 PM 1371 Views
plenty of weaker ones with notably strong Talents actually - 10/12/2015 06:26:03 PM 1431 Views
This is a flawed list - 11/12/2015 05:14:47 AM 1368 Views
and you are just rationalizing to make your point seem plausible - 11/12/2015 03:10:12 PM 1482 Views
another point about Talents (unrelated to the Strength question) - 11/12/2015 06:06:42 PM 1549 Views
Not really - 11/12/2015 09:09:41 PM 1454 Views
You are trying to force fit thin evidence into a sweeping statement - 11/12/2015 10:13:13 PM 1485 Views
Re: You are trying to force fit thin evidence into a sweeping statement - 12/12/2015 06:46:05 AM 1356 Views
Let's face it a body builder ninja is sort of funny to think about - 12/12/2015 02:55:37 PM 1453 Views
Some quotes - 12/12/2015 01:18:41 AM 1346 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 12/12/2015 03:18:30 AM 1443 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 12/12/2015 06:19:15 AM 1433 Views
Hey ... I have no interest in making you look stupid! - 12/12/2015 03:15:26 PM 1364 Views
Re: Hey ... I have no interest in making you look stupid! - 13/12/2015 11:26:17 AM 1402 Views
Yes, it's a sad thing to realize that this is pretty much the end of the road - 14/12/2015 04:40:50 PM 1357 Views
Re: Yes, it's a sad thing to realize that this is pretty much the end of the road - 15/12/2015 06:01:58 AM 1396 Views
I'm actually perplexed - 15/12/2015 07:19:27 AM 1330 Views
Re: I'm actually perplexed - 17/12/2015 11:36:59 AM 1467 Views
LOL ... Amen! *NM* - 15/12/2015 03:54:55 PM 845 Views
I don't think Elayne was that Strong in TSR - 10/12/2015 04:55:19 PM 1423 Views
Yes and No - 09/12/2015 04:35:48 PM 1333 Views
Re: Yes and No - 09/12/2015 10:41:32 PM 1483 Views
Indeed - 09/12/2015 11:01:03 PM 1417 Views
Ajah Strength Index - 09/12/2015 10:45:29 PM 1417 Views
Greens... - 10/12/2015 12:24:11 AM 1367 Views
Me too honestly - 10/12/2015 03:12:21 AM 1311 Views
Re: Me too honestly - 10/12/2015 04:59:42 AM 1351 Views
Re: Me too honestly - 10/12/2015 04:18:00 PM 1400 Views
Re: Ajah Strength Index - 10/12/2015 05:40:39 AM 1407 Views
I'm not so sure you'd have a chioce - 10/12/2015 04:01:35 PM 1361 Views
Liandrin's 13 - 10/12/2015 09:14:50 PM 1504 Views
Explain - 11/12/2015 05:16:55 AM 1435 Views
Several reasons ... Edited for clarity - 11/12/2015 02:54:58 PM 1543 Views
Bowl of the Winds Circle - 14/12/2015 09:41:33 PM 1473 Views
The Cleansing Circles ... some speculation here - 15/12/2015 05:52:14 PM 1391 Views
If I was Cadsuane I would have done it differently - 15/12/2015 10:01:07 PM 1443 Views
Aran'gar - 16/12/2015 01:11:17 AM 1547 Views
Re: Aran'gar - 16/12/2015 06:54:28 AM 1568 Views
mostly agree - 16/12/2015 06:27:06 PM 1435 Views
Re: Aran'gar - 16/12/2015 06:50:27 PM 1720 Views
Re: Aran'gar - 17/12/2015 10:07:48 AM 1629 Views
We do have some additional clues - 17/12/2015 06:26:20 PM 1591 Views
additional thought - 16/12/2015 06:49:04 PM 1376 Views
Does she know that? - 16/12/2015 06:58:24 PM 1565 Views
I'm speculating of course - 16/12/2015 07:37:10 PM 1430 Views
Strength by National origin - 16/12/2015 09:04:11 PM 1343 Views
Rebels v. Loyalists! - 16/12/2015 10:29:28 PM 1457 Views
Tamra's known hunters - 04/01/2016 06:58:17 PM 1458 Views
Known... - 05/01/2016 01:54:56 AM 1334 Views
Re: Known... - 05/01/2016 02:55:50 AM 1546 Views

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