Active Users:891 Time:31/01/2026 04:39:27 PM
Re: You are trying to force fit thin evidence into a sweeping statement Sidious Send a noteboard - 12/12/2015 06:46:05 AM

RJ certainly went out of his way to show us that Talents and personality traits go hand in hand ... doesn't really matter if it's driven by Talent or the other way around, the point is the author wrote it into nearly every character in one way or another. It's obvious he wanted us to see that there was a relationship between OP abilities/Talent and personalities.

But maybe RJ is wrong, and before the whole internet implodes remember that it is his philosophy, probably on life in general. Do you believe that your Talents in life have driven you? I'm a medical doctor and I can tell you that "I want to help people" is not the majority reason for doing medicine. If a woman has a Healing Talent then apparently she will want to Heal, but Moiraine's ability is pretty good and she never felt the desire to join the Yellows. Don't you think it's more likely that people come across what they are good at and decide for themselves if they want to invest in it? I like to travel the world... would I have a Talent like Androl that is secretly driving me? This is a serious claim against the free will, which RJ also cherishes.


I think it's pretty obvious that Semirhage had limited ability with weather in a broader scope here. What point of mentioning it in the context of weakness if she was still effective at it?

I'm saying it's all relative. She said she was an indifferent Tcheran player, and we know that Ishamael was a master. It depends who is saying what. If I wanted the weather manipulated I would not ask Semirhage out of the Forsaken, but she still might be better than the whole White Tower.


And why would she hate the very Talent that enabled her to "take her pleasures"? Without her high level Talent she would have been forced into much more mundane techniques, like Temaile was, to fulfill her sadism. What she did was a twisted reflection of Healing. According to RJ, IIRC, she was already far gone before the bore was even drilled.

Because Healing is helpful and she is not. From her own PoV she says that she could Heal anything and was whisked around the globe for such purposes. It was all about greatness and glory, and not the patient who was suddenly healthy. She's similar to Aginor in some ways. Surprise surprise...but Semirhage was evil long before the Bore was drilled.


Let's look at the other major strength channelers with NO Talents:

Asmodean
Sammael
Mesaana
Be'lal

30% of the Forsaken had no major or minor Talent and Lanfear shows only 1 as does Moghedien and Graendal. Maybe, Rhavin and Demandred might have a single Talent each, Compulsion and Traveling respectively, and Semihage might have had a second Talent with Traveling, but it's never 100% confirmed.


We don't know that, and yes I realise that since I made the claim I must prove positively that strong channelers have more Talents, but it's also about exposure. Sammael doesn't channel much around us, and neither did Be'lal, for instance. Lanfear on the other hand could have multiple Talents including Healing, Travelling and shields - we've seen her use all three, and she goes for shields first in combat against channelers of significant power.

Semirhage is a Healer and can block gateways. Demandred is probably strong in all the flows and has multiple powers like Egwene but he wasn't fleshed out. I always found Asmodean's ability to place Dragons on Couladin to be amazing, but perhaps it was a simple weave.


Ishamael uses the TP almost exclusively so nothing he does can be called a Talent of the OP.

True, but he used every flow against Rand in the Stone. He's not weak in anything.


I think you are conflating Skill with Talent to be honest.

Maybe, but maybe they're all more interlinked than you care to admit. According to you, someone can either be a ninja or a body builder - but the idea of having traits of both is unacceptable.

Wheel of Time board admin
Fan of Lanfear
This message last edited by Sidious on 12/12/2015 at 06:48:17 AM
Reply to message
Sortable, searchable file of Channelers - 28/11/2015 10:01:57 PM 3581 Views
Outstanding job - 29/11/2015 04:15:17 PM 1311 Views
Re: Outstanding job - 29/11/2015 06:53:40 PM 1287 Views
Very impressive. Well done. - 29/11/2015 04:41:52 PM 1459 Views
Re: Very impressive. Well done. - 29/11/2015 06:54:02 PM 1324 Views
Quick Question - 30/11/2015 05:11:17 AM 1468 Views
Nope - 30/11/2015 05:44:04 AM 1505 Views
They do say it - 30/11/2015 10:32:48 AM 1640 Views
I added Rand and Lews Therin to the ++1 Strength - 30/11/2015 03:21:00 PM 1326 Views
Re: I added Rand and Lews Therin to the ++1 Strength - 01/12/2015 08:02:01 AM 1438 Views
Well, it also states that there are gradations within each level too - 01/12/2015 04:26:29 PM 1466 Views
Well maybe - 02/12/2015 06:31:05 AM 1452 Views
Here's how I see it: - 02/12/2015 08:34:54 AM 1472 Views
I agree - 02/12/2015 04:22:52 PM 1469 Views
Re: I agree - 02/12/2015 05:14:50 PM 1646 Views
It's always been confusing - 02/12/2015 06:00:01 PM 1620 Views
Re: It's always been confusing - 02/12/2015 07:27:11 PM 1568 Views
I wholeheartedly agree - 02/12/2015 08:07:39 PM 1388 Views
Re: Here's how I see it: - 02/12/2015 04:46:54 PM 1634 Views
Morgase - 03/12/2015 04:37:47 AM 1515 Views
I agree with you on this - 03/12/2015 03:22:22 PM 1330 Views
Re: Morgase - 03/12/2015 07:46:59 PM 1612 Views
I didn't realize he was being literal in that comment - 03/12/2015 09:29:52 PM 1440 Views
Re: Well maybe - 02/12/2015 03:52:49 PM 1559 Views
Re: Well maybe - 02/12/2015 04:42:37 PM 1622 Views
Probably - 02/12/2015 06:11:42 PM 1383 Views
Re: Probably - 02/12/2015 07:38:50 PM 1491 Views
Indeed - 02/12/2015 08:21:07 PM 1371 Views
Re: Indeed - 03/12/2015 04:08:03 AM 1324 Views
close enough to not debate about it - 03/12/2015 03:47:55 PM 1333 Views
Re: close enough to not debate about it - 03/12/2015 04:14:38 PM 1332 Views
I think you misunderstand what I'm saying - 03/12/2015 04:43:29 PM 1392 Views
Re: I think you misunderstand what I'm saying - 03/12/2015 05:41:17 PM 1405 Views
um, no - 03/12/2015 09:24:31 PM 1321 Views
You two seem like Egwene's interchangeable defenders to me; it's weird to see you fighting. - 04/12/2015 09:21:23 PM 1673 Views
That's on you... - 04/12/2015 09:46:51 PM 1343 Views
We've been arguing on the forums for like 10 years - 06/12/2015 07:36:55 PM 1305 Views
It's Cannoli, Darius - 06/12/2015 08:53:06 PM 1307 Views
LOL *NM* - 07/12/2015 03:26:40 AM 805 Views
Some points - 05/12/2015 11:14:30 AM 1323 Views
Re: close enough to not debate about it - 05/12/2015 11:29:44 AM 1371 Views
Re: I added Rand and Lews Therin to the ++1 Strength - 03/12/2015 07:22:15 AM 1283 Views
Great job - 30/11/2015 05:45:27 AM 1334 Views
Re: Great job - 30/11/2015 03:22:09 PM 1336 Views
Made a few adjustments to add some presumed minimum/maximum levels *NM* - 30/11/2015 04:28:13 PM 884 Views
Some questions - 30/11/2015 05:18:00 PM 1323 Views
Re: Some questions - 30/11/2015 07:26:29 PM 1327 Views
Re: Some questions - 01/12/2015 08:05:01 AM 1506 Views
That's why I added another column to it - 01/12/2015 04:25:04 PM 1398 Views
Some more - 01/12/2015 05:24:40 PM 1405 Views
Re: Some more - 01/12/2015 07:34:20 PM 1431 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 12:27:40 AM 1445 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 02:26:53 AM 1370 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 08:24:49 AM 1419 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 05:54:49 PM 1455 Views
Re: Some more - 03/12/2015 04:26:45 AM 1260 Views
You said this much better than I did - 03/12/2015 03:53:57 PM 1314 Views
I think the men are much too strong - 02/12/2015 09:01:56 AM 1483 Views
Yes - 02/12/2015 03:06:44 PM 1312 Views
Re: Yes - 02/12/2015 04:45:20 PM 1429 Views
Re: Yes - 02/12/2015 06:39:43 PM 1476 Views
Re: Yes - 03/12/2015 03:56:23 AM 1271 Views
I think when characters quoted information from their world it gets muddled - 03/12/2015 04:19:43 PM 1385 Views
Shielding - 05/12/2015 11:19:40 AM 1243 Views
I feel like there is an RJ quote about this actually - 06/12/2015 06:41:35 PM 1257 Views
Re: I feel like there is an RJ quote about this actually - 07/12/2015 12:39:54 PM 1322 Views
seriously! - 07/12/2015 04:55:43 PM 1305 Views
Who should defer to whom? - 01/12/2015 08:17:22 PM 1465 Views
Interesting... - 02/12/2015 08:44:32 AM 1466 Views
I think there needs to be a pretty significant (5+ levels) difference - 02/12/2015 06:25:35 PM 1487 Views
Good job - 05/12/2015 08:43:09 PM 1839 Views
Some questions - 06/12/2015 12:28:46 AM 1328 Views
Can't offer much - 06/12/2015 12:33:29 AM 1654 Views
Cool. Hopefully Dom will see this... - 06/12/2015 08:58:39 PM 1253 Views
Re: Some questions - 06/12/2015 08:06:56 PM 1285 Views
Then there would be some mention of it, yes/ - 06/12/2015 08:56:10 PM 1283 Views
Not at all ... He clearly had a general sense of how it worked - 07/12/2015 03:28:35 AM 1217 Views
Re: Some questions - 07/12/2015 04:19:43 PM 1545 Views
yet we also know that some things are inherently different for men and women - 07/12/2015 08:15:26 PM 1234 Views
it probably has to do with the fact that the characters in the books are also obsessed with strength - 06/12/2015 07:58:20 PM 1351 Views
Sort of. - 06/12/2015 10:30:36 PM 1831 Views
Makes sense - 07/12/2015 12:38:54 AM 1256 Views
Clearly his strength rankings came in mid-series - 07/12/2015 07:39:59 PM 1471 Views
Re: Clearly his strength rankings came in mid-series - 10/12/2015 05:33:27 AM 1290 Views
Probably something along those lines - 10/12/2015 03:44:48 PM 1199 Views
Lifespan question (Spoiler) - 08/12/2015 05:42:41 PM 1237 Views
Moiraine... - 09/12/2015 02:28:50 AM 1317 Views
That too is possible - 09/12/2015 03:02:12 PM 1258 Views
Some random trends/data points - 08/12/2015 08:39:14 PM 1270 Views
Who is the one Sharan? And I'm surprised so many Seanchan have listed strength levels. *NM* - 09/12/2015 02:42:51 AM 823 Views
Re: Who is the one Sharan? And I'm surprised so many Seanchan have listed strength levels. - 09/12/2015 02:31:18 PM 1356 Views
Not sure she can channel, though - 09/12/2015 03:22:17 PM 1172 Views
Re: Not sure she can channel, though - 09/12/2015 04:54:37 PM 1342 Views
duplicate post ignore *NM* - 09/12/2015 02:31:36 PM 749 Views
duplicate post ignore *NM* - 09/12/2015 02:31:55 PM 772 Views
so.... - 09/12/2015 06:10:41 AM 1329 Views
Nope... - 09/12/2015 03:24:07 PM 1322 Views
Yes - 09/12/2015 03:46:30 PM 1237 Views
Some things to consider - 09/12/2015 04:18:50 PM 1246 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 05:43:35 AM 1197 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 06:28:49 AM 1181 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 11:53:51 AM 1234 Views
Sorilea has always been shown as skilled - 10/12/2015 04:10:37 PM 1312 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 04:46:29 PM 1225 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 05:50:17 PM 1219 Views
plenty of weaker ones with notably strong Talents actually - 10/12/2015 06:26:03 PM 1285 Views
This is a flawed list - 11/12/2015 05:14:47 AM 1219 Views
and you are just rationalizing to make your point seem plausible - 11/12/2015 03:10:12 PM 1337 Views
another point about Talents (unrelated to the Strength question) - 11/12/2015 06:06:42 PM 1403 Views
Not really - 11/12/2015 09:09:41 PM 1316 Views
You are trying to force fit thin evidence into a sweeping statement - 11/12/2015 10:13:13 PM 1318 Views
Re: You are trying to force fit thin evidence into a sweeping statement - 12/12/2015 06:46:05 AM 1218 Views
Let's face it a body builder ninja is sort of funny to think about - 12/12/2015 02:55:37 PM 1312 Views
Some quotes - 12/12/2015 01:18:41 AM 1207 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 12/12/2015 03:18:30 AM 1304 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 12/12/2015 06:19:15 AM 1282 Views
Hey ... I have no interest in making you look stupid! - 12/12/2015 03:15:26 PM 1215 Views
Re: Hey ... I have no interest in making you look stupid! - 13/12/2015 11:26:17 AM 1243 Views
Yes, it's a sad thing to realize that this is pretty much the end of the road - 14/12/2015 04:40:50 PM 1204 Views
Re: Yes, it's a sad thing to realize that this is pretty much the end of the road - 15/12/2015 06:01:58 AM 1249 Views
I'm actually perplexed - 15/12/2015 07:19:27 AM 1181 Views
Re: I'm actually perplexed - 17/12/2015 11:36:59 AM 1329 Views
LOL ... Amen! *NM* - 15/12/2015 03:54:55 PM 784 Views
I don't think Elayne was that Strong in TSR - 10/12/2015 04:55:19 PM 1274 Views
Yes and No - 09/12/2015 04:35:48 PM 1197 Views
Re: Yes and No - 09/12/2015 10:41:32 PM 1329 Views
Indeed - 09/12/2015 11:01:03 PM 1274 Views
Ajah Strength Index - 09/12/2015 10:45:29 PM 1267 Views
Greens... - 10/12/2015 12:24:11 AM 1227 Views
Me too honestly - 10/12/2015 03:12:21 AM 1175 Views
Re: Me too honestly - 10/12/2015 04:59:42 AM 1226 Views
Re: Me too honestly - 10/12/2015 04:18:00 PM 1251 Views
Re: Ajah Strength Index - 10/12/2015 05:40:39 AM 1245 Views
I'm not so sure you'd have a chioce - 10/12/2015 04:01:35 PM 1221 Views
Liandrin's 13 - 10/12/2015 09:14:50 PM 1357 Views
Explain - 11/12/2015 05:16:55 AM 1307 Views
Several reasons ... Edited for clarity - 11/12/2015 02:54:58 PM 1407 Views
Bowl of the Winds Circle - 14/12/2015 09:41:33 PM 1262 Views
The Cleansing Circles ... some speculation here - 15/12/2015 05:52:14 PM 1244 Views
If I was Cadsuane I would have done it differently - 15/12/2015 10:01:07 PM 1284 Views
Aran'gar - 16/12/2015 01:11:17 AM 1396 Views
Re: Aran'gar - 16/12/2015 06:54:28 AM 1424 Views
mostly agree - 16/12/2015 06:27:06 PM 1284 Views
Re: Aran'gar - 16/12/2015 06:50:27 PM 1558 Views
Re: Aran'gar - 17/12/2015 10:07:48 AM 1466 Views
We do have some additional clues - 17/12/2015 06:26:20 PM 1462 Views
additional thought - 16/12/2015 06:49:04 PM 1235 Views
Does she know that? - 16/12/2015 06:58:24 PM 1404 Views
I'm speculating of course - 16/12/2015 07:37:10 PM 1285 Views
Strength by National origin - 16/12/2015 09:04:11 PM 1216 Views
Rebels v. Loyalists! - 16/12/2015 10:29:28 PM 1320 Views
Tamra's known hunters - 04/01/2016 06:58:17 PM 1310 Views
Known... - 05/01/2016 01:54:56 AM 1192 Views
Re: Known... - 05/01/2016 02:55:50 AM 1408 Views

Reply to Message