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mostly agree darius_sedai Send a noteboard - 16/12/2015 06:27:06 PM

Fionwe, I see nothing in Dom's conclusions that outweigh the stated comments in the Companion about strength level to make a gateway. Especially because of the way the Gateway entry was worded in the Companion, specifically naming a MAN just before listing the minimum strength. There are too many nuances to the Power to make a blanket statement such as you insist upon. Starting with the fact that men and women Travel in different ways using different flows. It could be as simple as men don't need to be as strong to Travel.



It's likely that no Ash'aman is nearly as skilled as any Aes Sedai as the most senior of their member has channeled for less time than any novice. That said, AS don't know squat about saidin and vice versa... it's likely all the circles were completely inefficient at melding the two Powers.

I agree here ... Flinn was likely given charge of his circle because the others had little/no combat experience, despite having much more experience in the Power than he did. He's also shown that he's got a certain affinity with the Power (i.e. he discovered Healing Stilling). But my point was really about strength of the circles being higher than we previously assumed.


It proves nothing, and it's absurd to think that ALL the quotes on this issue are incorrect, especially from people who actually know how strong they all are. We know for a fact that the Companion doesn't know how strong Cadsuane is, and there are several other potential mess ups like Rahvin. I would go as far to say that the Companion should not be considered canon on several issues, as well as the last few books of the series. I think it's a very valid point stating that the original author had no part in the verification of these facts, and clearly many of them have been messed up. For instance, Graendal with her angreal fought a few average Aes Sedai and killed one, and yet she managed to hold her own in the Last Battle against an onslought that included Cadsuane AND Talaan, and without her angreal. It's completely absurd and BS did less than basic research into the OP before he wrote his part. There are many other OP errors (Taim can't be shielded by will alone, for instance) in the last few books, and his answers to fans have also made me cringe in the past. I'm sorry if it sounds bitter but I suspect you two both agree that RJ's legacy has been handled horribly since his death.

Cadsuane's angreal logically makes her a ++1. She could deflect the power of any attack that hit her, and there were at least two ++2's going for her.

It's likely that two AS fall well short of a ++1 - we have actually seen Rand squash two at the same time like flies while feeling dazed, and with shields no less. Lews Therin himself says that he can handle three women if they aren't too strong, and one must be Forsaken strength to make his life difficult. That is highly similar to Egwene's statement that she could not overwhelm a Forsaken linked to Romanda and Lelaine, considering all three of them are weaker than even Moghedien. We also know from Liandrin that it will take about three of them to smother Moghedien.

We know that Amys' strength is vague in the series - one quote placing her alongside Moiraine, the other alongside Sheriam. I see nothing ridiculous about Egwene being able to overwhelm the two if she has a strength of 80 and they are at 40-50 each.

We also know that everyone has horribly underestimated the skill of the Forsaken. Alivia is stronger than Cyndane in raw strength alone, and even with a strong angreal and many protective ter'angreal she barely escaped with her life. I have strong doubts whether we can make any conclusions from the Cleansing. We only had a glimpse of it - we know from RJ that Semirhage also fought some of the circles, for instance. It's possible that Semirhage killed Eben or Kumira - it's chaos that we witnessed through a keyhole. We also don't know how powerful these mixed circles are, but it seems like the amplification is substantial.


I would say that most of the strength listings in the Companion are probably directly from RJs notes, they mostly read like he was repeating a basic formula for each Aes Sedai he wanted to include ... nearly always including strength, place of birth, year born, year they went to the Tower, years as a Novice, years as an Accepted and the year she achieved the Shawl. There are a few that might be misstated or from an older scale (i.e. Rhavin died prior to the new scale being used so he may have never been "updated" to ++2 or ++3) I suspect Kumira is a typo and meant to be level 44 rather than 24 given that she was described as "barely stronger than Daigian" and as the weakest Aes Sedai, next to Daigian, with Cadsuane's entourage, yet we know that Rosara Medrano (level 32), Shahal Comanli (level 34) and Silvane Redfor (level 33) were all with the group and are clearly weaker than Kumira's stated strength of level 24.

I think most of the time the characters in a given scene are speaking somewhat correctly. However, I don't think any of the male/female strength comparisons are very accurate, based on lack of knowledge ... Egwene is certainly wrong in her estimate that with Romanda and Lelaine the wouldn't match a male Forsaken, and Moiraine would have only been correct in her estimation if, as is likely, Aviendha was well below her eventual strength of 11.

Seems to me that 2 level 17 or 18 women are probably in the range of a match for a ++1 male in terms of raw strength, but without a scale or knowing the difference between levels it's really impossible to say. but this does work if you assume a 72 point scale and about a 3% reduction in strength from each level. I know some of you will think that's insane, but given that level 19 is considered Strong for Aes Sedai and there are only 6 levels of Aes Sedai strength higher (with 20+ Aes Sedai levels below) this seems plausible.

None of this will ever work out perfectly, but you can put a little effort into this and come fairly close

Level 18 would be about a 36 on a 72 point scale, roughly 1/2 a ++1
Level 8 would be about 48 on this scale, which, if Aviendha was roughly Daigian's strength at the time of the quote about matching a Female Forsaken, would make she and Egwene roughly the same as a level 1 ... of course Aviendha was probably a bit stronger than that and it's possible Egwene was still below her potential at this time so maybe they were level 12 and level 35. Or perhaps Moiraine simply believed the Female Forsaken were as strong as the males since she had no real way of knowing how strong they were thus Aviendha could have been more like a level 20 with Egwene at 10-12 and it would still make some sense.

Domani Drag Queen in the White Tower ... Aran'gar watch out!
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Sortable, searchable file of Channelers - 28/11/2015 10:01:57 PM 3706 Views
Outstanding job - 29/11/2015 04:15:17 PM 1409 Views
Re: Outstanding job - 29/11/2015 06:53:40 PM 1377 Views
Very impressive. Well done. - 29/11/2015 04:41:52 PM 1557 Views
Re: Very impressive. Well done. - 29/11/2015 06:54:02 PM 1441 Views
Quick Question - 30/11/2015 05:11:17 AM 1581 Views
Nope - 30/11/2015 05:44:04 AM 1647 Views
They do say it - 30/11/2015 10:32:48 AM 1728 Views
I added Rand and Lews Therin to the ++1 Strength - 30/11/2015 03:21:00 PM 1425 Views
Re: I added Rand and Lews Therin to the ++1 Strength - 01/12/2015 08:02:01 AM 1550 Views
Well, it also states that there are gradations within each level too - 01/12/2015 04:26:29 PM 1561 Views
Well maybe - 02/12/2015 06:31:05 AM 1557 Views
Here's how I see it: - 02/12/2015 08:34:54 AM 1565 Views
I agree - 02/12/2015 04:22:52 PM 1584 Views
Re: I agree - 02/12/2015 05:14:50 PM 1767 Views
It's always been confusing - 02/12/2015 06:00:01 PM 1708 Views
Re: It's always been confusing - 02/12/2015 07:27:11 PM 1699 Views
I wholeheartedly agree - 02/12/2015 08:07:39 PM 1515 Views
Re: Here's how I see it: - 02/12/2015 04:46:54 PM 1761 Views
Morgase - 03/12/2015 04:37:47 AM 1609 Views
I agree with you on this - 03/12/2015 03:22:22 PM 1437 Views
Re: Morgase - 03/12/2015 07:46:59 PM 1724 Views
I didn't realize he was being literal in that comment - 03/12/2015 09:29:52 PM 1547 Views
Re: Well maybe - 02/12/2015 03:52:49 PM 1663 Views
Re: Well maybe - 02/12/2015 04:42:37 PM 1714 Views
Probably - 02/12/2015 06:11:42 PM 1473 Views
Re: Probably - 02/12/2015 07:38:50 PM 1597 Views
Indeed - 02/12/2015 08:21:07 PM 1487 Views
Re: Indeed - 03/12/2015 04:08:03 AM 1410 Views
close enough to not debate about it - 03/12/2015 03:47:55 PM 1435 Views
Re: close enough to not debate about it - 03/12/2015 04:14:38 PM 1426 Views
I think you misunderstand what I'm saying - 03/12/2015 04:43:29 PM 1496 Views
Re: I think you misunderstand what I'm saying - 03/12/2015 05:41:17 PM 1507 Views
um, no - 03/12/2015 09:24:31 PM 1418 Views
You two seem like Egwene's interchangeable defenders to me; it's weird to see you fighting. - 04/12/2015 09:21:23 PM 1771 Views
That's on you... - 04/12/2015 09:46:51 PM 1437 Views
We've been arguing on the forums for like 10 years - 06/12/2015 07:36:55 PM 1416 Views
It's Cannoli, Darius - 06/12/2015 08:53:06 PM 1419 Views
LOL *NM* - 07/12/2015 03:26:40 AM 854 Views
Some points - 05/12/2015 11:14:30 AM 1446 Views
Re: close enough to not debate about it - 05/12/2015 11:29:44 AM 1466 Views
Re: I added Rand and Lews Therin to the ++1 Strength - 03/12/2015 07:22:15 AM 1379 Views
Great job - 30/11/2015 05:45:27 AM 1431 Views
Re: Great job - 30/11/2015 03:22:09 PM 1437 Views
Made a few adjustments to add some presumed minimum/maximum levels *NM* - 30/11/2015 04:28:13 PM 934 Views
Some questions - 30/11/2015 05:18:00 PM 1417 Views
Re: Some questions - 30/11/2015 07:26:29 PM 1412 Views
Re: Some questions - 01/12/2015 08:05:01 AM 1598 Views
That's why I added another column to it - 01/12/2015 04:25:04 PM 1489 Views
Some more - 01/12/2015 05:24:40 PM 1509 Views
Re: Some more - 01/12/2015 07:34:20 PM 1548 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 12:27:40 AM 1553 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 02:26:53 AM 1476 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 08:24:49 AM 1516 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 05:54:49 PM 1545 Views
Re: Some more - 03/12/2015 04:26:45 AM 1344 Views
You said this much better than I did - 03/12/2015 03:53:57 PM 1416 Views
I think the men are much too strong - 02/12/2015 09:01:56 AM 1581 Views
Yes - 02/12/2015 03:06:44 PM 1411 Views
Re: Yes - 02/12/2015 04:45:20 PM 1527 Views
Re: Yes - 02/12/2015 06:39:43 PM 1574 Views
Re: Yes - 03/12/2015 03:56:23 AM 1379 Views
I think when characters quoted information from their world it gets muddled - 03/12/2015 04:19:43 PM 1495 Views
Shielding - 05/12/2015 11:19:40 AM 1330 Views
I feel like there is an RJ quote about this actually - 06/12/2015 06:41:35 PM 1354 Views
Re: I feel like there is an RJ quote about this actually - 07/12/2015 12:39:54 PM 1417 Views
seriously! - 07/12/2015 04:55:43 PM 1422 Views
Who should defer to whom? - 01/12/2015 08:17:22 PM 1570 Views
Interesting... - 02/12/2015 08:44:32 AM 1572 Views
I think there needs to be a pretty significant (5+ levels) difference - 02/12/2015 06:25:35 PM 1582 Views
Good job - 05/12/2015 08:43:09 PM 1932 Views
Some questions - 06/12/2015 12:28:46 AM 1430 Views
Can't offer much - 06/12/2015 12:33:29 AM 1751 Views
Cool. Hopefully Dom will see this... - 06/12/2015 08:58:39 PM 1346 Views
Re: Some questions - 06/12/2015 08:06:56 PM 1373 Views
Then there would be some mention of it, yes/ - 06/12/2015 08:56:10 PM 1375 Views
Not at all ... He clearly had a general sense of how it worked - 07/12/2015 03:28:35 AM 1298 Views
Re: Some questions - 07/12/2015 04:19:43 PM 1651 Views
yet we also know that some things are inherently different for men and women - 07/12/2015 08:15:26 PM 1341 Views
it probably has to do with the fact that the characters in the books are also obsessed with strength - 06/12/2015 07:58:20 PM 1453 Views
Sort of. - 06/12/2015 10:30:36 PM 1930 Views
Makes sense - 07/12/2015 12:38:54 AM 1358 Views
Clearly his strength rankings came in mid-series - 07/12/2015 07:39:59 PM 1565 Views
Re: Clearly his strength rankings came in mid-series - 10/12/2015 05:33:27 AM 1401 Views
Probably something along those lines - 10/12/2015 03:44:48 PM 1289 Views
Lifespan question (Spoiler) - 08/12/2015 05:42:41 PM 1334 Views
Moiraine... - 09/12/2015 02:28:50 AM 1406 Views
That too is possible - 09/12/2015 03:02:12 PM 1357 Views
Some random trends/data points - 08/12/2015 08:39:14 PM 1369 Views
Who is the one Sharan? And I'm surprised so many Seanchan have listed strength levels. *NM* - 09/12/2015 02:42:51 AM 873 Views
Re: Who is the one Sharan? And I'm surprised so many Seanchan have listed strength levels. - 09/12/2015 02:31:18 PM 1444 Views
Not sure she can channel, though - 09/12/2015 03:22:17 PM 1258 Views
Re: Not sure she can channel, though - 09/12/2015 04:54:37 PM 1445 Views
duplicate post ignore *NM* - 09/12/2015 02:31:36 PM 791 Views
duplicate post ignore *NM* - 09/12/2015 02:31:55 PM 820 Views
so.... - 09/12/2015 06:10:41 AM 1426 Views
Nope... - 09/12/2015 03:24:07 PM 1411 Views
Yes - 09/12/2015 03:46:30 PM 1336 Views
Some things to consider - 09/12/2015 04:18:50 PM 1335 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 05:43:35 AM 1300 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 06:28:49 AM 1285 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 11:53:51 AM 1332 Views
Sorilea has always been shown as skilled - 10/12/2015 04:10:37 PM 1404 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 04:46:29 PM 1330 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 05:50:17 PM 1320 Views
plenty of weaker ones with notably strong Talents actually - 10/12/2015 06:26:03 PM 1385 Views
This is a flawed list - 11/12/2015 05:14:47 AM 1299 Views
and you are just rationalizing to make your point seem plausible - 11/12/2015 03:10:12 PM 1438 Views
another point about Talents (unrelated to the Strength question) - 11/12/2015 06:06:42 PM 1502 Views
Not really - 11/12/2015 09:09:41 PM 1416 Views
You are trying to force fit thin evidence into a sweeping statement - 11/12/2015 10:13:13 PM 1441 Views
Re: You are trying to force fit thin evidence into a sweeping statement - 12/12/2015 06:46:05 AM 1313 Views
Let's face it a body builder ninja is sort of funny to think about - 12/12/2015 02:55:37 PM 1411 Views
Some quotes - 12/12/2015 01:18:41 AM 1305 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 12/12/2015 03:18:30 AM 1398 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 12/12/2015 06:19:15 AM 1381 Views
Hey ... I have no interest in making you look stupid! - 12/12/2015 03:15:26 PM 1312 Views
Re: Hey ... I have no interest in making you look stupid! - 13/12/2015 11:26:17 AM 1351 Views
Yes, it's a sad thing to realize that this is pretty much the end of the road - 14/12/2015 04:40:50 PM 1314 Views
Re: Yes, it's a sad thing to realize that this is pretty much the end of the road - 15/12/2015 06:01:58 AM 1342 Views
I'm actually perplexed - 15/12/2015 07:19:27 AM 1290 Views
Re: I'm actually perplexed - 17/12/2015 11:36:59 AM 1428 Views
LOL ... Amen! *NM* - 15/12/2015 03:54:55 PM 823 Views
I don't think Elayne was that Strong in TSR - 10/12/2015 04:55:19 PM 1376 Views
Yes and No - 09/12/2015 04:35:48 PM 1294 Views
Re: Yes and No - 09/12/2015 10:41:32 PM 1435 Views
Indeed - 09/12/2015 11:01:03 PM 1375 Views
Ajah Strength Index - 09/12/2015 10:45:29 PM 1350 Views
Greens... - 10/12/2015 12:24:11 AM 1330 Views
Me too honestly - 10/12/2015 03:12:21 AM 1272 Views
Re: Me too honestly - 10/12/2015 04:59:42 AM 1316 Views
Re: Me too honestly - 10/12/2015 04:18:00 PM 1360 Views
Re: Ajah Strength Index - 10/12/2015 05:40:39 AM 1332 Views
I'm not so sure you'd have a chioce - 10/12/2015 04:01:35 PM 1318 Views
Liandrin's 13 - 10/12/2015 09:14:50 PM 1460 Views
Explain - 11/12/2015 05:16:55 AM 1401 Views
Several reasons ... Edited for clarity - 11/12/2015 02:54:58 PM 1500 Views
Bowl of the Winds Circle - 14/12/2015 09:41:33 PM 1354 Views
The Cleansing Circles ... some speculation here - 15/12/2015 05:52:14 PM 1348 Views
If I was Cadsuane I would have done it differently - 15/12/2015 10:01:07 PM 1396 Views
Aran'gar - 16/12/2015 01:11:17 AM 1501 Views
Re: Aran'gar - 16/12/2015 06:54:28 AM 1515 Views
mostly agree - 16/12/2015 06:27:06 PM 1378 Views
Re: Aran'gar - 16/12/2015 06:50:27 PM 1669 Views
Re: Aran'gar - 17/12/2015 10:07:48 AM 1579 Views
We do have some additional clues - 17/12/2015 06:26:20 PM 1554 Views
additional thought - 16/12/2015 06:49:04 PM 1335 Views
Does she know that? - 16/12/2015 06:58:24 PM 1518 Views
I'm speculating of course - 16/12/2015 07:37:10 PM 1391 Views
Strength by National origin - 16/12/2015 09:04:11 PM 1298 Views
Rebels v. Loyalists! - 16/12/2015 10:29:28 PM 1416 Views
Tamra's known hunters - 04/01/2016 06:58:17 PM 1415 Views
Known... - 05/01/2016 01:54:56 AM 1285 Views
Re: Known... - 05/01/2016 02:55:50 AM 1505 Views

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