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Re: I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead. Sidious Send a noteboard - 25/01/2010 08:56:16 PM
The arguments for her death aren't convincing. They all seem to rely on the magnitude of the balefire stream as evidence that she could not have escaped it and the vanishing of her Compulsion as evidence that she was erased from existence. Neither of these present air-tight support for this conclusion.


Reversal of Compulsion is pretty airtight. The Compulsion disappeared at that exact moment. From what we know of channeling, the only possibility was that Graendal was balefired. The only possibility to escape this was that Graendal was not the one who compelled him - but she already told Sammael she would not teach Compulsion to anyone.
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Graendal's death would imply a major logical flaw in the story. fionwe1987 - 25/01/2010 05:18:23 PM 2797 Views
I think Graendal's death was a great scene Etzel - 25/01/2010 05:26:51 PM 1525 Views
The scene itself was great. The rest is crap. fionwe1987 - 25/01/2010 05:37:44 PM 1320 Views
After reading 12 WoT books... Etzel - 25/01/2010 05:46:31 PM 1434 Views
You also ignored... randfandom - 25/01/2010 08:15:34 PM 1431 Views
and of course, the obvious theme Sidious - 25/01/2010 09:02:56 PM 1243 Views
Bah! fionwe1987 - 25/01/2010 11:49:33 PM 1390 Views
It's possible that this was mainly written by BS Etzel - 26/01/2010 12:03:03 PM 1352 Views
I think playing too many games just messes up with the integrety and solidness of the books ... amirebram - 26/01/2010 09:46:16 PM 2814 Views
I agree that the set up for her death was rather lame darius_sedai - 25/01/2010 06:14:07 PM 1599 Views
I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 25/01/2010 06:18:30 PM 1376 Views
Re: I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead. Underwood - 25/01/2010 06:44:34 PM 1316 Views
well one of her major character parallels is Josef Mengel darius_sedai - 25/01/2010 06:54:43 PM 1137 Views
Can you think of any way that would explain the Compulsion vanishing? beetnemesis - 25/01/2010 07:52:40 PM 1138 Views
that's kind of my whole point darius_sedai - 25/01/2010 08:43:19 PM 1066 Views
Uh, not actually at all really Sidious - 25/01/2010 09:07:52 PM 1371 Views
*shudders* Yondaime - 26/01/2010 02:27:35 AM 1239 Views
*shrugs* darius_sedai - 26/01/2010 08:47:21 AM 1273 Views
None of those "easy explanations" could work beetnemesis - 26/01/2010 07:14:16 AM 1177 Views
my entire problem with the scene is that it just felt too open ended darius_sedai - 26/01/2010 08:58:37 AM 1258 Views
Can't she knot it to disapate after being examined once? Rurouni_Kenshin - 26/01/2010 03:43:55 AM 1099 Views
Do we have evidence that this is possible? Yondaime - 26/01/2010 03:44:48 AM 1261 Views
why would Graendal do that anyway? Sidious - 26/01/2010 04:26:38 AM 1282 Views
Re: why would Graendal do that anyway? Rurouni_Kenshin - 03/02/2010 02:52:32 AM 1217 Views
Re: I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 26/01/2010 02:03:51 AM 1327 Views
I'm glad you think Be'lal is alive. Fanatic-Templar - 26/01/2010 07:38:40 AM 1084 Views
Re: I'm glad you think Be'lal is alive. darius_sedai - 26/01/2010 08:49:00 AM 1283 Views
Re: I'm glad you think Be'lal is alive. Lord Haart - 26/01/2010 09:19:35 AM 1069 Views
Moiraine probably learned it while researching with Adealas and Vandene. *NM* Gher - 26/01/2010 04:57:09 PM 867 Views
Sidious - 26/01/2010 11:42:04 AM 1267 Views
Didn't Balthamel and Aginor leave corpses? Fanatic-Templar - 26/01/2010 04:35:19 PM 1255 Views
Re: Didn't Balthamel and Aginor leave corpses? Sidious - 26/01/2010 07:06:01 PM 1131 Views
Re: RugbyPlayingAshaman - 26/01/2010 04:44:06 PM 1246 Views
He was balefired by a direct stream in front of at least two credible witnesses. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 26/01/2010 04:10:13 PM 1267 Views
Me, Too. The Name With No Man - 28/01/2010 08:00:09 PM 1240 Views
Re: I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead. Sidious - 25/01/2010 08:56:16 PM 1351 Views
I believe she's dead Sareitha Sedai - 25/01/2010 09:06:37 PM 1187 Views
Re: I believe she's dead Sidious - 25/01/2010 09:09:58 PM 1231 Views
I don't think she would have taught anyone Sareitha Sedai - 25/01/2010 09:18:03 PM 1070 Views
Besides, if it wasn't Graendal, it implies that she knew of Rand's plan, which is not feasible *NM* Shannow - 26/01/2010 02:01:41 PM 655 Views
The compulsion did not disappear immediately. Read the damned scene! fionwe1987 - 25/01/2010 11:54:02 PM 1362 Views
Re: The compulsion did not disappear immediately. Read the damned scene! Underwood - 26/01/2010 01:22:57 AM 1110 Views
Stop passing judgments... fionwe1987 - 26/01/2010 02:05:21 AM 1297 Views
But your theories are becoming increasingly farfetched Sidious - 26/01/2010 04:21:21 AM 1179 Views
I repeat that I find her "death" monumental... fionwe1987 - 26/01/2010 07:16:13 PM 1150 Views
Re: I repeat that I find her "death" monumental... Sidious - 26/01/2010 07:23:29 PM 1179 Views
Dude, then you derailed the thread... fionwe1987 - 26/01/2010 07:31:55 PM 1079 Views
Not really Sidious - 26/01/2010 07:35:06 PM 1191 Views
Re: Not really fionwe1987 - 26/01/2010 07:45:20 PM 1259 Views
Re: Not really Sidious - 28/01/2010 04:27:17 PM 1176 Views
Re: Stop passing judgments... RugbyPlayingAshaman - 26/01/2010 04:40:37 PM 1140 Views
*NM* RugbyPlayingAshaman - 26/01/2010 05:00:10 PM 623 Views
Everyone can see residues- only a select few can "read" them beetnemesis - 26/01/2010 07:42:19 AM 1218 Views
no she said she wouldn't risk strength and skill in the same place darius_sedai - 26/01/2010 08:51:31 AM 1112 Views
Re: no she said she wouldn't risk strength and skill in the same place Sidious - 26/01/2010 11:37:26 AM 1267 Views
read the whole quote darius_sedai - 26/01/2010 04:35:17 PM 933 Views
LOL! You read the whole quote Sidious - 26/01/2010 07:00:41 PM 1042 Views
the risk she won't take is strength and skill residing together. darius_sedai - 27/01/2010 12:40:09 AM 1126 Views
Re: the risk she won't take is strength and skill residing together. Sidious - 28/01/2010 04:28:21 PM 1265 Views
I don't see any flaws. Skeeve the Great - 25/01/2010 09:14:44 PM 1299 Views
But... fionwe1987 - 25/01/2010 11:44:49 PM 1054 Views
Re: But... Skeeve the Great - 26/01/2010 01:14:51 AM 1204 Views
That is what I thought ... Yondaime - 26/01/2010 01:24:18 AM 1109 Views
That still doesn't make sense. fionwe1987 - 26/01/2010 02:23:12 AM 1285 Views
But, having a clean up guy does make sense. Yondaime - 26/01/2010 03:02:13 AM 1317 Views
But the clean up guy would require another clean up guy! fionwe1987 - 26/01/2010 03:35:44 AM 1164 Views
Re: But the clean up guy would require another clean up guy! Yondaime - 26/01/2010 04:12:41 AM 1101 Views
Nonsense. Fanatic-Templar - 26/01/2010 07:50:04 AM 1038 Views
Dude, read what I said please... fionwe1987 - 26/01/2010 07:21:52 PM 1225 Views
Re: Dude, read what I said please... Fanatic-Templar - 26/01/2010 09:28:25 PM 1212 Views
Kerb had no initiative... he was under too heavy a Compulsion to think for himself darius_sedai - 27/01/2010 12:45:47 AM 1088 Views
I think he had some, albeit probably not a whole lot Yondaime - 27/01/2010 01:03:44 AM 1144 Views
Nynaeve and Elayne were under a weaker compulsion... fionwe1987 - 27/01/2010 03:10:52 AM 964 Views
We don't know that, exactly Yondaime - 27/01/2010 03:50:44 AM 1035 Views
If you cannot provide an answer... fionwe1987 - 27/01/2010 03:10:40 AM 1111 Views
Seriously? Fanatic-Templar - 27/01/2010 03:55:57 AM 1138 Views
Maybe... Etzel - 27/01/2010 11:08:10 AM 1096 Views
Messenger was running around being obvious. Noone would suspect Kerb though. Case Closed. *NM* Lord Haart - 26/01/2010 11:08:16 AM 770 Views
Thank the creator you're not in the police then. *NM* fionwe1987 - 26/01/2010 07:22:29 PM 711 Views
Ok, in more detail: Lord Haart - 26/01/2010 08:16:30 PM 1215 Views
I'm tired of making this point... fionwe1987 - 26/01/2010 08:39:22 PM 957 Views
Re: I'm tired of making this point... Syraelle - 26/01/2010 08:44:51 PM 1137 Views
Thoughts Heiko - 26/01/2010 01:05:45 AM 1052 Views
But that means she's dead Skeeve the Great - 26/01/2010 01:20:19 AM 1095 Views
Re: But that means she's dead Heiko - 26/01/2010 05:31:25 AM 1192 Views
Nope. Ramshalan was just "collecting taxes" or something. Lord Haart - 26/01/2010 11:10:25 AM 1029 Views
Re: Nope. Ramshalan was NOT just "collecting taxes" or something. Syraelle - 26/01/2010 05:41:17 PM 1103 Views
By, the way, if I understand this correctly... Fanatic-Templar - 26/01/2010 04:49:45 PM 1276 Views
Indeed... Etzel - 26/01/2010 05:13:53 PM 1278 Views
Re: Indeed... Sidious - 26/01/2010 07:04:40 PM 1096 Views
I'm not arguing she's alive, but... fionwe1987 - 26/01/2010 07:29:42 PM 1112 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but... Underwood - 26/01/2010 07:58:41 PM 1114 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but... Fanatic-Templar - 26/01/2010 09:42:52 PM 921 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but... fionwe1987 - 27/01/2010 03:26:46 AM 1132 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but... Fanatic-Templar - 27/01/2010 04:05:23 AM 1241 Views
That's not fair Yondaime - 27/01/2010 04:09:38 AM 1075 Views
I agree about the 'awesome' part . Fanatic-Templar - 27/01/2010 05:41:00 AM 1054 Views
Does anybody have a link to it? (nothing on Google). I'm intrigued. *NM* Lord Haart - 27/01/2010 08:27:13 AM 667 Views
It was on Wotmania. Someone copied all the theories, but I don't recall whom. *NM* Fanatic-Templar - 27/01/2010 08:31:00 AM 796 Views
I just think it's funny that what you call omniscience has been done by the Forsaken before. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 27/01/2010 02:02:44 PM 1050 Views
But Graendal was the victim of a greater plot. Lord Haart - 27/01/2010 05:30:28 PM 1158 Views
So your response is that Ishamael/Moridin is omniscient, not Graendal. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 27/01/2010 05:57:20 PM 1270 Views
Re: So your response is that Ishamael/Moridin is omniscient, not Graendal. Lord Haart - 28/01/2010 04:05:21 AM 1256 Views
Give me one example. Just one. *NM* Fanatic-Templar - 27/01/2010 06:52:44 PM 736 Views
Ishamael plans millennia ahead by sowing the seeds for the Black Ajah, the Seanchan and the current RugbyPlayingAshaman - 28/01/2010 01:57:39 PM 1230 Views
Not even comparable. Fanatic-Templar - 28/01/2010 06:31:06 PM 988 Views
Re: Not even comparable. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 28/01/2010 07:50:38 PM 1100 Views
Could you please take the effort to read my posts? Fanatic-Templar - 28/01/2010 10:45:01 PM 1054 Views
Re: Could you please take the effort to read my posts? RugbyPlayingAshaman - 29/01/2010 03:49:43 PM 1100 Views
Re: Could you please take the effort to read my posts? Fanatic-Templar - 29/01/2010 06:40:43 PM 1084 Views
And, just to double post: Fanatic-Templar - 27/01/2010 07:12:17 PM 866 Views
Re: And, just to double post: RugbyPlayingAshaman - 27/01/2010 08:25:45 PM 1156 Views
Nice answer. Fanatic-Templar - 28/01/2010 12:10:27 AM 1202 Views
Re: Nice answer. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 28/01/2010 01:55:16 PM 1124 Views
Hilarious. Fanatic-Templar - 28/01/2010 06:36:22 PM 1241 Views
Re: Hilarious. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 28/01/2010 07:15:20 PM 1126 Views
Re: Hilarious. Fanatic-Templar - 28/01/2010 07:41:29 PM 1140 Views
Re: Hilarious. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 28/01/2010 07:53:34 PM 986 Views
Re: Hilarious. Fanatic-Templar - 28/01/2010 10:55:57 PM 1173 Views
That's because you didn't look at other posts. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 29/01/2010 03:37:08 PM 1122 Views
Moridin's main directive was.. Etzel - 29/01/2010 03:57:41 PM 1155 Views
Re: Moridin's main directive was.. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 29/01/2010 04:50:16 PM 1201 Views
Preventing order wasn't accomplished... Etzel - 29/01/2010 05:12:22 PM 1171 Views
I disagree. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 29/01/2010 05:28:59 PM 1546 Views
I will stop our discussion here; the posts are already pushed too far to the right of my display. *NM* Etzel - 29/01/2010 06:14:29 PM 599 Views
You expect me to search every post you've made on this forum, ever? Fanatic-Templar - 29/01/2010 06:50:49 PM 1092 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but... Skeeve the Great - 27/01/2010 01:00:42 AM 1105 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but... fionwe1987 - 27/01/2010 03:26:56 AM 1152 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but... Skeeve the Great - 27/01/2010 05:35:39 AM 1126 Views
I don't see a flaw rAndy aL - 27/01/2010 06:24:44 AM 1211 Views
Re: I don't see a flaw Underwood - 27/01/2010 04:18:27 PM 1164 Views
Yup, I'm tired of seeing arguments that ignore the need to back up their own claims. Lord Haart - 27/01/2010 05:47:16 PM 1138 Views
Let's give you one logic path for Millisair being poisoned. TheUltimateReality - 27/01/2010 05:47:04 PM 1155 Views
Spot on. *NM* Lord Haart - 28/01/2010 04:09:26 AM 729 Views
I don't think there's a flaw, I think you misinterpret Graendal's plans DomA - 27/01/2010 06:57:44 PM 1135 Views
Good point on Ituralde - he may still be Compulsed in ways we're yet to discover. *NM* Lord Haart - 28/01/2010 04:11:15 AM 711 Views
Compulsion is limited Sidious - 28/01/2010 04:30:24 PM 1113 Views
Re: Compulsion is limited Lord Haart - 28/01/2010 06:35:05 PM 1247 Views
Re: Compulsion is limited DomA - 28/01/2010 08:26:37 PM 1018 Views
Re: Graendal's death would imply a major logical flaw in the story. taura-tierno - 27/01/2010 09:11:32 PM 1119 Views
There's really no further purpose for her character. Libby - 09/02/2010 10:52:58 PM 1200 Views
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