Active Users:406 Time:02/05/2025 01:17:07 AM
Back to Messageboard Post New Thread Search Help Stats Rules
Dude, then you derailed the thread... fionwe1987 Send a noteboard - 26/01/2010 07:31:55 PM

I'm not certain about her death - I'm merely saying that it's very unlikely that she's alive. When the effects of balefire are seen it is a very strong indicator that the origin has been destroyed. Nothing is set in stone, but I'm pointing out that actually saying she's alive has no real evidence to back it up. I even disagree that thematically it is illogical. She's been a key Forsaken since TFOH, if she dies several books later it makes sense. Rand arrived in Arad Doman with Graendal in mind from the very beginning. To have him destroy her at the end of the book after a lot of soulsearching is logical.

I said in the very beginning that this wasn't about whether Graendal was alive. Its about the chain of events leading to her exposure, and that is full of holes.

If you had said you believe she was dead and that the story did have holes, I'd have agreed with you and left it at that.

Instead, you ignored the logical fallacies in the story and chose to accuse me of wanting Graendal alive! WTF?
Reply to message
Graendal's death would imply a major logical flaw in the story. fionwe1987 - 25/01/2010 05:18:23 PM 2755 Views
I think Graendal's death was a great scene Etzel - 25/01/2010 05:26:51 PM 1486 Views
The scene itself was great. The rest is crap. fionwe1987 - 25/01/2010 05:37:44 PM 1285 Views
After reading 12 WoT books... Etzel - 25/01/2010 05:46:31 PM 1385 Views
You also ignored... randfandom - 25/01/2010 08:15:34 PM 1397 Views
and of course, the obvious theme Sidious - 25/01/2010 09:02:56 PM 1208 Views
Bah! fionwe1987 - 25/01/2010 11:49:33 PM 1352 Views
It's possible that this was mainly written by BS Etzel - 26/01/2010 12:03:03 PM 1318 Views
I think playing too many games just messes up with the integrety and solidness of the books ... amirebram - 26/01/2010 09:46:16 PM 2779 Views
I agree that the set up for her death was rather lame darius_sedai - 25/01/2010 06:14:07 PM 1555 Views
I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 25/01/2010 06:18:30 PM 1345 Views
Re: I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead. Underwood - 25/01/2010 06:44:34 PM 1281 Views
well one of her major character parallels is Josef Mengel darius_sedai - 25/01/2010 06:54:43 PM 1103 Views
Can you think of any way that would explain the Compulsion vanishing? beetnemesis - 25/01/2010 07:52:40 PM 1106 Views
that's kind of my whole point darius_sedai - 25/01/2010 08:43:19 PM 1032 Views
Uh, not actually at all really Sidious - 25/01/2010 09:07:52 PM 1335 Views
*shudders* Yondaime - 26/01/2010 02:27:35 AM 1206 Views
*shrugs* darius_sedai - 26/01/2010 08:47:21 AM 1237 Views
None of those "easy explanations" could work beetnemesis - 26/01/2010 07:14:16 AM 1143 Views
my entire problem with the scene is that it just felt too open ended darius_sedai - 26/01/2010 08:58:37 AM 1220 Views
Can't she knot it to disapate after being examined once? Rurouni_Kenshin - 26/01/2010 03:43:55 AM 1063 Views
Do we have evidence that this is possible? Yondaime - 26/01/2010 03:44:48 AM 1226 Views
why would Graendal do that anyway? Sidious - 26/01/2010 04:26:38 AM 1242 Views
Re: why would Graendal do that anyway? Rurouni_Kenshin - 03/02/2010 02:52:32 AM 1182 Views
Re: I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 26/01/2010 02:03:51 AM 1296 Views
I'm glad you think Be'lal is alive. Fanatic-Templar - 26/01/2010 07:38:40 AM 1049 Views
Re: I'm glad you think Be'lal is alive. darius_sedai - 26/01/2010 08:49:00 AM 1251 Views
Re: I'm glad you think Be'lal is alive. Lord Haart - 26/01/2010 09:19:35 AM 1032 Views
Moiraine probably learned it while researching with Adealas and Vandene. *NM* Gher - 26/01/2010 04:57:09 PM 852 Views
Sidious - 26/01/2010 11:42:04 AM 1232 Views
Didn't Balthamel and Aginor leave corpses? Fanatic-Templar - 26/01/2010 04:35:19 PM 1222 Views
Re: Didn't Balthamel and Aginor leave corpses? Sidious - 26/01/2010 07:06:01 PM 1099 Views
Re: RugbyPlayingAshaman - 26/01/2010 04:44:06 PM 1210 Views
He was balefired by a direct stream in front of at least two credible witnesses. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 26/01/2010 04:10:13 PM 1205 Views
Me, Too. The Name With No Man - 28/01/2010 08:00:09 PM 1202 Views
Re: I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead. Sidious - 25/01/2010 08:56:16 PM 1318 Views
I believe she's dead Sareitha Sedai - 25/01/2010 09:06:37 PM 1152 Views
Re: I believe she's dead Sidious - 25/01/2010 09:09:58 PM 1199 Views
I don't think she would have taught anyone Sareitha Sedai - 25/01/2010 09:18:03 PM 1021 Views
Besides, if it wasn't Graendal, it implies that she knew of Rand's plan, which is not feasible *NM* Shannow - 26/01/2010 02:01:41 PM 639 Views
The compulsion did not disappear immediately. Read the damned scene! fionwe1987 - 25/01/2010 11:54:02 PM 1326 Views
Re: The compulsion did not disappear immediately. Read the damned scene! Underwood - 26/01/2010 01:22:57 AM 1076 Views
Stop passing judgments... fionwe1987 - 26/01/2010 02:05:21 AM 1263 Views
But your theories are becoming increasingly farfetched Sidious - 26/01/2010 04:21:21 AM 1139 Views
I repeat that I find her "death" monumental... fionwe1987 - 26/01/2010 07:16:13 PM 1114 Views
Re: I repeat that I find her "death" monumental... Sidious - 26/01/2010 07:23:29 PM 1142 Views
Dude, then you derailed the thread... fionwe1987 - 26/01/2010 07:31:55 PM 1047 Views
Not really Sidious - 26/01/2010 07:35:06 PM 1159 Views
Re: Not really fionwe1987 - 26/01/2010 07:45:20 PM 1226 Views
Re: Not really Sidious - 28/01/2010 04:27:17 PM 1144 Views
Re: Stop passing judgments... RugbyPlayingAshaman - 26/01/2010 04:40:37 PM 1108 Views
*NM* RugbyPlayingAshaman - 26/01/2010 05:00:10 PM 607 Views
Everyone can see residues- only a select few can "read" them beetnemesis - 26/01/2010 07:42:19 AM 1162 Views
no she said she wouldn't risk strength and skill in the same place darius_sedai - 26/01/2010 08:51:31 AM 1077 Views
Re: no she said she wouldn't risk strength and skill in the same place Sidious - 26/01/2010 11:37:26 AM 1203 Views
read the whole quote darius_sedai - 26/01/2010 04:35:17 PM 899 Views
LOL! You read the whole quote Sidious - 26/01/2010 07:00:41 PM 1011 Views
the risk she won't take is strength and skill residing together. darius_sedai - 27/01/2010 12:40:09 AM 1091 Views
Re: the risk she won't take is strength and skill residing together. Sidious - 28/01/2010 04:28:21 PM 1231 Views
I don't see any flaws. Skeeve the Great - 25/01/2010 09:14:44 PM 1265 Views
But... fionwe1987 - 25/01/2010 11:44:49 PM 1020 Views
Re: But... Skeeve the Great - 26/01/2010 01:14:51 AM 1157 Views
That is what I thought ... Yondaime - 26/01/2010 01:24:18 AM 1075 Views
That still doesn't make sense. fionwe1987 - 26/01/2010 02:23:12 AM 1251 Views
But, having a clean up guy does make sense. Yondaime - 26/01/2010 03:02:13 AM 1286 Views
But the clean up guy would require another clean up guy! fionwe1987 - 26/01/2010 03:35:44 AM 1136 Views
Re: But the clean up guy would require another clean up guy! Yondaime - 26/01/2010 04:12:41 AM 1068 Views
Nonsense. Fanatic-Templar - 26/01/2010 07:50:04 AM 1005 Views
Dude, read what I said please... fionwe1987 - 26/01/2010 07:21:52 PM 1189 Views
Re: Dude, read what I said please... Fanatic-Templar - 26/01/2010 09:28:25 PM 1172 Views
Kerb had no initiative... he was under too heavy a Compulsion to think for himself darius_sedai - 27/01/2010 12:45:47 AM 1057 Views
I think he had some, albeit probably not a whole lot Yondaime - 27/01/2010 01:03:44 AM 1110 Views
Nynaeve and Elayne were under a weaker compulsion... fionwe1987 - 27/01/2010 03:10:52 AM 931 Views
We don't know that, exactly Yondaime - 27/01/2010 03:50:44 AM 1002 Views
If you cannot provide an answer... fionwe1987 - 27/01/2010 03:10:40 AM 1080 Views
Seriously? Fanatic-Templar - 27/01/2010 03:55:57 AM 1105 Views
Maybe... Etzel - 27/01/2010 11:08:10 AM 1065 Views
Messenger was running around being obvious. Noone would suspect Kerb though. Case Closed. *NM* Lord Haart - 26/01/2010 11:08:16 AM 756 Views
Thank the creator you're not in the police then. *NM* fionwe1987 - 26/01/2010 07:22:29 PM 696 Views
Ok, in more detail: Lord Haart - 26/01/2010 08:16:30 PM 1179 Views
I'm tired of making this point... fionwe1987 - 26/01/2010 08:39:22 PM 925 Views
Re: I'm tired of making this point... Syraelle - 26/01/2010 08:44:51 PM 1104 Views
Thoughts Heiko - 26/01/2010 01:05:45 AM 1020 Views
But that means she's dead Skeeve the Great - 26/01/2010 01:20:19 AM 1062 Views
Re: But that means she's dead Heiko - 26/01/2010 05:31:25 AM 1157 Views
Nope. Ramshalan was just "collecting taxes" or something. Lord Haart - 26/01/2010 11:10:25 AM 997 Views
Re: Nope. Ramshalan was NOT just "collecting taxes" or something. Syraelle - 26/01/2010 05:41:17 PM 1069 Views
By, the way, if I understand this correctly... Fanatic-Templar - 26/01/2010 04:49:45 PM 1235 Views
Indeed... Etzel - 26/01/2010 05:13:53 PM 1244 Views
Re: Indeed... Sidious - 26/01/2010 07:04:40 PM 1065 Views
I'm not arguing she's alive, but... fionwe1987 - 26/01/2010 07:29:42 PM 1084 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but... Underwood - 26/01/2010 07:58:41 PM 1079 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but... Fanatic-Templar - 26/01/2010 09:42:52 PM 890 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but... fionwe1987 - 27/01/2010 03:26:46 AM 1096 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but... Fanatic-Templar - 27/01/2010 04:05:23 AM 1206 Views
That's not fair Yondaime - 27/01/2010 04:09:38 AM 1046 Views
I agree about the 'awesome' part . Fanatic-Templar - 27/01/2010 05:41:00 AM 1022 Views
Does anybody have a link to it? (nothing on Google). I'm intrigued. *NM* Lord Haart - 27/01/2010 08:27:13 AM 650 Views
It was on Wotmania. Someone copied all the theories, but I don't recall whom. *NM* Fanatic-Templar - 27/01/2010 08:31:00 AM 783 Views
I just think it's funny that what you call omniscience has been done by the Forsaken before. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 27/01/2010 02:02:44 PM 1019 Views
But Graendal was the victim of a greater plot. Lord Haart - 27/01/2010 05:30:28 PM 1128 Views
So your response is that Ishamael/Moridin is omniscient, not Graendal. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 27/01/2010 05:57:20 PM 1196 Views
Re: So your response is that Ishamael/Moridin is omniscient, not Graendal. Lord Haart - 28/01/2010 04:05:21 AM 1218 Views
Give me one example. Just one. *NM* Fanatic-Templar - 27/01/2010 06:52:44 PM 722 Views
Ishamael plans millennia ahead by sowing the seeds for the Black Ajah, the Seanchan and the current RugbyPlayingAshaman - 28/01/2010 01:57:39 PM 1196 Views
Not even comparable. Fanatic-Templar - 28/01/2010 06:31:06 PM 954 Views
Re: Not even comparable. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 28/01/2010 07:50:38 PM 1065 Views
Could you please take the effort to read my posts? Fanatic-Templar - 28/01/2010 10:45:01 PM 1020 Views
Re: Could you please take the effort to read my posts? RugbyPlayingAshaman - 29/01/2010 03:49:43 PM 1069 Views
Re: Could you please take the effort to read my posts? Fanatic-Templar - 29/01/2010 06:40:43 PM 1051 Views
And, just to double post: Fanatic-Templar - 27/01/2010 07:12:17 PM 837 Views
Re: And, just to double post: RugbyPlayingAshaman - 27/01/2010 08:25:45 PM 1115 Views
Nice answer. Fanatic-Templar - 28/01/2010 12:10:27 AM 1163 Views
Re: Nice answer. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 28/01/2010 01:55:16 PM 1093 Views
Hilarious. Fanatic-Templar - 28/01/2010 06:36:22 PM 1202 Views
Re: Hilarious. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 28/01/2010 07:15:20 PM 1089 Views
Re: Hilarious. Fanatic-Templar - 28/01/2010 07:41:29 PM 1105 Views
Re: Hilarious. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 28/01/2010 07:53:34 PM 955 Views
Re: Hilarious. Fanatic-Templar - 28/01/2010 10:55:57 PM 1139 Views
That's because you didn't look at other posts. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 29/01/2010 03:37:08 PM 1089 Views
Moridin's main directive was.. Etzel - 29/01/2010 03:57:41 PM 1123 Views
Re: Moridin's main directive was.. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 29/01/2010 04:50:16 PM 1163 Views
Preventing order wasn't accomplished... Etzel - 29/01/2010 05:12:22 PM 1133 Views
I disagree. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 29/01/2010 05:28:59 PM 1515 Views
I will stop our discussion here; the posts are already pushed too far to the right of my display. *NM* Etzel - 29/01/2010 06:14:29 PM 584 Views
You expect me to search every post you've made on this forum, ever? Fanatic-Templar - 29/01/2010 06:50:49 PM 1051 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but... Skeeve the Great - 27/01/2010 01:00:42 AM 1071 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but... fionwe1987 - 27/01/2010 03:26:56 AM 1122 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but... Skeeve the Great - 27/01/2010 05:35:39 AM 1097 Views
I don't see a flaw rAndy aL - 27/01/2010 06:24:44 AM 1182 Views
Re: I don't see a flaw Underwood - 27/01/2010 04:18:27 PM 1128 Views
Yup, I'm tired of seeing arguments that ignore the need to back up their own claims. Lord Haart - 27/01/2010 05:47:16 PM 1095 Views
Let's give you one logic path for Millisair being poisoned. TheUltimateReality - 27/01/2010 05:47:04 PM 1121 Views
Spot on. *NM* Lord Haart - 28/01/2010 04:09:26 AM 715 Views
I don't think there's a flaw, I think you misinterpret Graendal's plans DomA - 27/01/2010 06:57:44 PM 1099 Views
Good point on Ituralde - he may still be Compulsed in ways we're yet to discover. *NM* Lord Haart - 28/01/2010 04:11:15 AM 695 Views
Compulsion is limited Sidious - 28/01/2010 04:30:24 PM 1079 Views
Re: Compulsion is limited Lord Haart - 28/01/2010 06:35:05 PM 1211 Views
Re: Compulsion is limited DomA - 28/01/2010 08:26:37 PM 988 Views
Re: Graendal's death would imply a major logical flaw in the story. taura-tierno - 27/01/2010 09:11:32 PM 1084 Views
There's really no further purpose for her character. Libby - 09/02/2010 10:52:58 PM 1163 Views
Back to Messageboard Post New Thread Search Help Stats Rules

Reply to Message

Block Quote Paragraph Quote
Formatting
Smiley Codes