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Not really Sidious Send a noteboard - 26/01/2010 07:35:06 PM

I'm not certain about her death - I'm merely saying that it's very unlikely that she's alive. When the effects of balefire are seen it is a very strong indicator that the origin has been destroyed. Nothing is set in stone, but I'm pointing out that actually saying she's alive has no real evidence to back it up. I even disagree that thematically it is illogical. She's been a key Forsaken since TFOH, if she dies several books later it makes sense. Rand arrived in Arad Doman with Graendal in mind from the very beginning. To have him destroy her at the end of the book after a lot of soulsearching is logical.

I said in the very beginning that this wasn't about whether Graendal was alive. Its about the chain of events leading to her exposure, and that is full of holes.

If you had said you believe she was dead and that the story did have holes, I'd have agreed with you and left it at that.

Instead, you ignored the logical fallacies in the story and chose to accuse me of wanting Graendal alive! WTF?


But I've addressed those points in other threads, and I continue to agree with Fanatic Templar and Etzel that it does make sense. What holes?

And you do think she's alive. May I not discuss with you why I think you're wrong?
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Graendal's death would imply a major logical flaw in the story. fionwe1987 - 25/01/2010 05:18:23 PM 2930 Views
I think Graendal's death was a great scene Etzel - 25/01/2010 05:26:51 PM 1683 Views
The scene itself was great. The rest is crap. fionwe1987 - 25/01/2010 05:37:44 PM 1505 Views
After reading 12 WoT books... Etzel - 25/01/2010 05:46:31 PM 1561 Views
You also ignored... randfandom - 25/01/2010 08:15:34 PM 1551 Views
and of course, the obvious theme Sidious - 25/01/2010 09:02:56 PM 1405 Views
Bah! fionwe1987 - 25/01/2010 11:49:33 PM 1542 Views
It's possible that this was mainly written by BS Etzel - 26/01/2010 12:03:03 PM 1476 Views
I think playing too many games just messes up with the integrety and solidness of the books ... amirebram - 26/01/2010 09:46:16 PM 2963 Views
I agree that the set up for her death was rather lame darius_sedai - 25/01/2010 06:14:07 PM 1713 Views
I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 25/01/2010 06:18:30 PM 1515 Views
Re: I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead. Underwood - 25/01/2010 06:44:34 PM 1451 Views
well one of her major character parallels is Josef Mengel darius_sedai - 25/01/2010 06:54:43 PM 1251 Views
Can you think of any way that would explain the Compulsion vanishing? beetnemesis - 25/01/2010 07:52:40 PM 1288 Views
that's kind of my whole point darius_sedai - 25/01/2010 08:43:19 PM 1223 Views
Uh, not actually at all really Sidious - 25/01/2010 09:07:52 PM 1518 Views
*shudders* Yondaime - 26/01/2010 02:27:35 AM 1388 Views
*shrugs* darius_sedai - 26/01/2010 08:47:21 AM 1440 Views
None of those "easy explanations" could work beetnemesis - 26/01/2010 07:14:16 AM 1342 Views
my entire problem with the scene is that it just felt too open ended darius_sedai - 26/01/2010 08:58:37 AM 1389 Views
Can't she knot it to disapate after being examined once? Rurouni_Kenshin - 26/01/2010 03:43:55 AM 1293 Views
Do we have evidence that this is possible? Yondaime - 26/01/2010 03:44:48 AM 1430 Views
why would Graendal do that anyway? Sidious - 26/01/2010 04:26:38 AM 1428 Views
Re: why would Graendal do that anyway? Rurouni_Kenshin - 03/02/2010 02:52:32 AM 1331 Views
Re: I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 26/01/2010 02:03:51 AM 1435 Views
I'm glad you think Be'lal is alive. Fanatic-Templar - 26/01/2010 07:38:40 AM 1217 Views
Re: I'm glad you think Be'lal is alive. darius_sedai - 26/01/2010 08:49:00 AM 1409 Views
Re: I'm glad you think Be'lal is alive. Lord Haart - 26/01/2010 09:19:35 AM 1203 Views
Moiraine probably learned it while researching with Adealas and Vandene. *NM* Gher - 26/01/2010 04:57:09 PM 930 Views
Sidious - 26/01/2010 11:42:04 AM 1398 Views
Didn't Balthamel and Aginor leave corpses? Fanatic-Templar - 26/01/2010 04:35:19 PM 1415 Views
Re: Didn't Balthamel and Aginor leave corpses? Sidious - 26/01/2010 07:06:01 PM 1277 Views
Re: RugbyPlayingAshaman - 26/01/2010 04:44:06 PM 1399 Views
He was balefired by a direct stream in front of at least two credible witnesses. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 26/01/2010 04:10:13 PM 1411 Views
Me, Too. The Name With No Man - 28/01/2010 08:00:09 PM 1374 Views
Re: I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead. Sidious - 25/01/2010 08:56:16 PM 1472 Views
I believe she's dead Sareitha Sedai - 25/01/2010 09:06:37 PM 1330 Views
Re: I believe she's dead Sidious - 25/01/2010 09:09:58 PM 1367 Views
I don't think she would have taught anyone Sareitha Sedai - 25/01/2010 09:18:03 PM 1238 Views
Besides, if it wasn't Graendal, it implies that she knew of Rand's plan, which is not feasible *NM* Shannow - 26/01/2010 02:01:41 PM 731 Views
The compulsion did not disappear immediately. Read the damned scene! fionwe1987 - 25/01/2010 11:54:02 PM 1482 Views
Re: The compulsion did not disappear immediately. Read the damned scene! Underwood - 26/01/2010 01:22:57 AM 1238 Views
Stop passing judgments... fionwe1987 - 26/01/2010 02:05:21 AM 1442 Views
But your theories are becoming increasingly farfetched Sidious - 26/01/2010 04:21:21 AM 1326 Views
I repeat that I find her "death" monumental... fionwe1987 - 26/01/2010 07:16:13 PM 1298 Views
Re: I repeat that I find her "death" monumental... Sidious - 26/01/2010 07:23:29 PM 1328 Views
Dude, then you derailed the thread... fionwe1987 - 26/01/2010 07:31:55 PM 1205 Views
Not really Sidious - 26/01/2010 07:35:06 PM 1323 Views
Re: Not really fionwe1987 - 26/01/2010 07:45:20 PM 1409 Views
Re: Not really Sidious - 28/01/2010 04:27:17 PM 1303 Views
Re: Stop passing judgments... RugbyPlayingAshaman - 26/01/2010 04:40:37 PM 1289 Views
*NM* RugbyPlayingAshaman - 26/01/2010 05:00:10 PM 688 Views
Everyone can see residues- only a select few can "read" them beetnemesis - 26/01/2010 07:42:19 AM 1369 Views
no she said she wouldn't risk strength and skill in the same place darius_sedai - 26/01/2010 08:51:31 AM 1262 Views
Re: no she said she wouldn't risk strength and skill in the same place Sidious - 26/01/2010 11:37:26 AM 1414 Views
read the whole quote darius_sedai - 26/01/2010 04:35:17 PM 1053 Views
LOL! You read the whole quote Sidious - 26/01/2010 07:00:41 PM 1195 Views
the risk she won't take is strength and skill residing together. darius_sedai - 27/01/2010 12:40:09 AM 1257 Views
Re: the risk she won't take is strength and skill residing together. Sidious - 28/01/2010 04:28:21 PM 1376 Views
I don't see any flaws. Skeeve the Great - 25/01/2010 09:14:44 PM 1465 Views
But... fionwe1987 - 25/01/2010 11:44:49 PM 1204 Views
Re: But... Skeeve the Great - 26/01/2010 01:14:51 AM 1363 Views
That is what I thought ... Yondaime - 26/01/2010 01:24:18 AM 1248 Views
That still doesn't make sense. fionwe1987 - 26/01/2010 02:23:12 AM 1449 Views
But, having a clean up guy does make sense. Yondaime - 26/01/2010 03:02:13 AM 1451 Views
But the clean up guy would require another clean up guy! fionwe1987 - 26/01/2010 03:35:44 AM 1285 Views
Re: But the clean up guy would require another clean up guy! Yondaime - 26/01/2010 04:12:41 AM 1259 Views
Nonsense. Fanatic-Templar - 26/01/2010 07:50:04 AM 1174 Views
Dude, read what I said please... fionwe1987 - 26/01/2010 07:21:52 PM 1372 Views
Re: Dude, read what I said please... Fanatic-Templar - 26/01/2010 09:28:25 PM 1342 Views
Kerb had no initiative... he was under too heavy a Compulsion to think for himself darius_sedai - 27/01/2010 12:45:47 AM 1216 Views
I think he had some, albeit probably not a whole lot Yondaime - 27/01/2010 01:03:44 AM 1267 Views
Nynaeve and Elayne were under a weaker compulsion... fionwe1987 - 27/01/2010 03:10:52 AM 1117 Views
We don't know that, exactly Yondaime - 27/01/2010 03:50:44 AM 1160 Views
If you cannot provide an answer... fionwe1987 - 27/01/2010 03:10:40 AM 1246 Views
Seriously? Fanatic-Templar - 27/01/2010 03:55:57 AM 1293 Views
Maybe... Etzel - 27/01/2010 11:08:10 AM 1224 Views
Messenger was running around being obvious. Noone would suspect Kerb though. Case Closed. *NM* Lord Haart - 26/01/2010 11:08:16 AM 837 Views
Thank the creator you're not in the police then. *NM* fionwe1987 - 26/01/2010 07:22:29 PM 798 Views
Ok, in more detail: Lord Haart - 26/01/2010 08:16:30 PM 1371 Views
I'm tired of making this point... fionwe1987 - 26/01/2010 08:39:22 PM 1120 Views
Re: I'm tired of making this point... Syraelle - 26/01/2010 08:44:51 PM 1277 Views
Thoughts Heiko - 26/01/2010 01:05:45 AM 1197 Views
But that means she's dead Skeeve the Great - 26/01/2010 01:20:19 AM 1267 Views
Re: But that means she's dead Heiko - 26/01/2010 05:31:25 AM 1361 Views
Nope. Ramshalan was just "collecting taxes" or something. Lord Haart - 26/01/2010 11:10:25 AM 1167 Views
Re: Nope. Ramshalan was NOT just "collecting taxes" or something. Syraelle - 26/01/2010 05:41:17 PM 1228 Views
By, the way, if I understand this correctly... Fanatic-Templar - 26/01/2010 04:49:45 PM 1462 Views
Indeed... Etzel - 26/01/2010 05:13:53 PM 1424 Views
Re: Indeed... Sidious - 26/01/2010 07:04:40 PM 1271 Views
I'm not arguing she's alive, but... fionwe1987 - 26/01/2010 07:29:42 PM 1270 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but... Underwood - 26/01/2010 07:58:41 PM 1244 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but... Fanatic-Templar - 26/01/2010 09:42:52 PM 1039 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but... fionwe1987 - 27/01/2010 03:26:46 AM 1302 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but... Fanatic-Templar - 27/01/2010 04:05:23 AM 1379 Views
That's not fair Yondaime - 27/01/2010 04:09:38 AM 1237 Views
I agree about the 'awesome' part . Fanatic-Templar - 27/01/2010 05:41:00 AM 1183 Views
Does anybody have a link to it? (nothing on Google). I'm intrigued. *NM* Lord Haart - 27/01/2010 08:27:13 AM 736 Views
It was on Wotmania. Someone copied all the theories, but I don't recall whom. *NM* Fanatic-Templar - 27/01/2010 08:31:00 AM 863 Views
I just think it's funny that what you call omniscience has been done by the Forsaken before. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 27/01/2010 02:02:44 PM 1197 Views
But Graendal was the victim of a greater plot. Lord Haart - 27/01/2010 05:30:28 PM 1317 Views
So your response is that Ishamael/Moridin is omniscient, not Graendal. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 27/01/2010 05:57:20 PM 1411 Views
Re: So your response is that Ishamael/Moridin is omniscient, not Graendal. Lord Haart - 28/01/2010 04:05:21 AM 1382 Views
Give me one example. Just one. *NM* Fanatic-Templar - 27/01/2010 06:52:44 PM 812 Views
Ishamael plans millennia ahead by sowing the seeds for the Black Ajah, the Seanchan and the current RugbyPlayingAshaman - 28/01/2010 01:57:39 PM 1354 Views
Not even comparable. Fanatic-Templar - 28/01/2010 06:31:06 PM 1118 Views
Re: Not even comparable. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 28/01/2010 07:50:38 PM 1245 Views
Could you please take the effort to read my posts? Fanatic-Templar - 28/01/2010 10:45:01 PM 1212 Views
Re: Could you please take the effort to read my posts? RugbyPlayingAshaman - 29/01/2010 03:49:43 PM 1253 Views
Re: Could you please take the effort to read my posts? Fanatic-Templar - 29/01/2010 06:40:43 PM 1262 Views
And, just to double post: Fanatic-Templar - 27/01/2010 07:12:17 PM 1008 Views
Re: And, just to double post: RugbyPlayingAshaman - 27/01/2010 08:25:45 PM 1337 Views
Nice answer. Fanatic-Templar - 28/01/2010 12:10:27 AM 1313 Views
Re: Nice answer. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 28/01/2010 01:55:16 PM 1253 Views
Hilarious. Fanatic-Templar - 28/01/2010 06:36:22 PM 1385 Views
Re: Hilarious. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 28/01/2010 07:15:20 PM 1259 Views
Re: Hilarious. Fanatic-Templar - 28/01/2010 07:41:29 PM 1287 Views
Re: Hilarious. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 28/01/2010 07:53:34 PM 1144 Views
Re: Hilarious. Fanatic-Templar - 28/01/2010 10:55:57 PM 1312 Views
That's because you didn't look at other posts. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 29/01/2010 03:37:08 PM 1252 Views
Moridin's main directive was.. Etzel - 29/01/2010 03:57:41 PM 1298 Views
Re: Moridin's main directive was.. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 29/01/2010 04:50:16 PM 1374 Views
Preventing order wasn't accomplished... Etzel - 29/01/2010 05:12:22 PM 1306 Views
I disagree. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 29/01/2010 05:28:59 PM 1679 Views
I will stop our discussion here; the posts are already pushed too far to the right of my display. *NM* Etzel - 29/01/2010 06:14:29 PM 658 Views
You expect me to search every post you've made on this forum, ever? Fanatic-Templar - 29/01/2010 06:50:49 PM 1240 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but... Skeeve the Great - 27/01/2010 01:00:42 AM 1259 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but... fionwe1987 - 27/01/2010 03:26:56 AM 1294 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but... Skeeve the Great - 27/01/2010 05:35:39 AM 1246 Views
I don't see a flaw rAndy aL - 27/01/2010 06:24:44 AM 1338 Views
Re: I don't see a flaw Underwood - 27/01/2010 04:18:27 PM 1302 Views
Yup, I'm tired of seeing arguments that ignore the need to back up their own claims. Lord Haart - 27/01/2010 05:47:16 PM 1286 Views
Let's give you one logic path for Millisair being poisoned. TheUltimateReality - 27/01/2010 05:47:04 PM 1303 Views
Spot on. *NM* Lord Haart - 28/01/2010 04:09:26 AM 804 Views
I don't think there's a flaw, I think you misinterpret Graendal's plans DomA - 27/01/2010 06:57:44 PM 1284 Views
Good point on Ituralde - he may still be Compulsed in ways we're yet to discover. *NM* Lord Haart - 28/01/2010 04:11:15 AM 772 Views
Compulsion is limited Sidious - 28/01/2010 04:30:24 PM 1236 Views
Re: Compulsion is limited Lord Haart - 28/01/2010 06:35:05 PM 1389 Views
Re: Compulsion is limited DomA - 28/01/2010 08:26:37 PM 1174 Views
Re: Graendal's death would imply a major logical flaw in the story. taura-tierno - 27/01/2010 09:11:32 PM 1270 Views
There's really no further purpose for her character. Libby - 09/02/2010 10:52:58 PM 1339 Views
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