Kerb was completely unhelpful and mechanical when Rand was questioning him - and it was about this behavior that Rand was talking about. Kerb had no personality - he was completely replaced with whatever Graendal wanted him to be. Which is not the same as saying that he is an automaton, or a robot.
Kerb had initiative. He worked with the dungeons for several months - out of Graendal's direct command. He killed the messenger. He poisoned Millisair (though I understand it is your opinion that he was ordered by Graendal, of which I am debating
). He tried to escape when he suspected he would be caught by Nyneave. He apparently ate, went to the bathroom, and slept, and chose how to use and manage his time while he went about existing. His personality may have been destroyed, leaving him a shell following programing written by Graendal, but that programming obviously allowed for his brain to come up with creative solutions to problems he encountered and act on those solutions. From mundane things such as how to treat his coworkers, to (possibly) whether to kill the messenger. While it is possible that Graendal traveled to Bandar Eban to give him these orders, I find it very doubtful she would do so every single time.
I understand that you find it difficult to believe that Kerb could have chosen to poison Millisair or to kill the messenger. It just sounds like we have different opinions about what compulsion is and isn't able to do
. My personal opinion is that it is very possible that Kerb made those decisions on his own. Especially if his orders were "Hide among the staff in Bandar Eban, and discreetly eliminate anyone who may compromise my security. If you are suspected, reveal nothing."
I always conceived of compulsion similar to brainwashing - at which Graendal was the best. She was skilled enough to make her own "Manchurian Candidate" an assassin, so brainwashed that he couldn't control what he was doing, but who decisively used all of the creativity and judgment of the human mind to execute his objective(as a matter of fact, the more I recall about the film (the 1962 version, that is) the more similarities I see between Kerb and Raymond Shaw). RJ grew up during this era too, so it probably isn't too much of a stretch to suggest that some of those ideas about mind control and brainwashing made its way into his writing.
Regardless, I don't really think that this is a subject we can come to a conclusion on. Your opinion is that Kerb's compulsion couldn't have allowed him a very great degree of freedom, therefore, Graendal had to have been directly involved. My opinion is that Kerb's compulsion allowed him to make decisions, without Graendal's direct involvement, and his actions led Rand to Natrin's Barrow. The truth is, we don't really know that much about compulsion. We heard a few hazy stories - daughters convincing their fathers to accept bad boyfriends, Verin puzzling out her own version, and suspicious behavior by a few characters such as Noal.
*shrugs*
As it is, I can understand why you think the buildup to Graendal's death was odd - Kerb's behavior is odd, and defined by his compulsion. And we don't really understand how compulsion works.
Kerb had initiative. He worked with the dungeons for several months - out of Graendal's direct command. He killed the messenger. He poisoned Millisair (though I understand it is your opinion that he was ordered by Graendal, of which I am debating
). He tried to escape when he suspected he would be caught by Nyneave. He apparently ate, went to the bathroom, and slept, and chose how to use and manage his time while he went about existing. His personality may have been destroyed, leaving him a shell following programing written by Graendal, but that programming obviously allowed for his brain to come up with creative solutions to problems he encountered and act on those solutions. From mundane things such as how to treat his coworkers, to (possibly) whether to kill the messenger. While it is possible that Graendal traveled to Bandar Eban to give him these orders, I find it very doubtful she would do so every single time. I understand that you find it difficult to believe that Kerb could have chosen to poison Millisair or to kill the messenger. It just sounds like we have different opinions about what compulsion is and isn't able to do
. My personal opinion is that it is very possible that Kerb made those decisions on his own. Especially if his orders were "Hide among the staff in Bandar Eban, and discreetly eliminate anyone who may compromise my security. If you are suspected, reveal nothing."I always conceived of compulsion similar to brainwashing - at which Graendal was the best. She was skilled enough to make her own "Manchurian Candidate" an assassin, so brainwashed that he couldn't control what he was doing, but who decisively used all of the creativity and judgment of the human mind to execute his objective(as a matter of fact, the more I recall about the film (the 1962 version, that is) the more similarities I see between Kerb and Raymond Shaw). RJ grew up during this era too, so it probably isn't too much of a stretch to suggest that some of those ideas about mind control and brainwashing made its way into his writing.
Regardless, I don't really think that this is a subject we can come to a conclusion on. Your opinion is that Kerb's compulsion couldn't have allowed him a very great degree of freedom, therefore, Graendal had to have been directly involved. My opinion is that Kerb's compulsion allowed him to make decisions, without Graendal's direct involvement, and his actions led Rand to Natrin's Barrow. The truth is, we don't really know that much about compulsion. We heard a few hazy stories - daughters convincing their fathers to accept bad boyfriends, Verin puzzling out her own version, and suspicious behavior by a few characters such as Noal.
*shrugs*
As it is, I can understand why you think the buildup to Graendal's death was odd - Kerb's behavior is odd, and defined by his compulsion. And we don't really understand how compulsion works.
"Take the Gleeman!" Rand and Mat cried, throwing Thom to the Myrddraal. Then they ran away as fast as they could, and Thom's screams quickly faded into the distance along with any inconvenient feelings of guilt.
Graendal's death would imply a major logical flaw in the story.
- 25/01/2010 05:18:23 PM
2929 Views
I think Graendal's death was a great scene
- 25/01/2010 05:26:51 PM
1679 Views
The scene itself was great. The rest is crap.
- 25/01/2010 05:37:44 PM
1505 Views
After reading 12 WoT books...
- 25/01/2010 05:46:31 PM
1561 Views
I think playing too many games just messes up with the integrety and solidness of the books ...
- 26/01/2010 09:46:16 PM
2962 Views
I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead.
- 25/01/2010 06:18:30 PM
1515 Views
Re: I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead.
- 25/01/2010 06:44:34 PM
1451 Views
well one of her major character parallels is Josef Mengel
- 25/01/2010 06:54:43 PM
1251 Views
Can you think of any way that would explain the Compulsion vanishing?
- 25/01/2010 07:52:40 PM
1288 Views
that's kind of my whole point
- 25/01/2010 08:43:19 PM
1220 Views
None of those "easy explanations" could work
- 26/01/2010 07:14:16 AM
1342 Views
my entire problem with the scene is that it just felt too open ended
- 26/01/2010 08:58:37 AM
1389 Views
Can't she knot it to disapate after being examined once?
- 26/01/2010 03:43:55 AM
1291 Views
Do we have evidence that this is possible?
- 26/01/2010 03:44:48 AM
1428 Views
Re: I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead.
- 26/01/2010 02:03:51 AM
1434 Views
I'm glad you think Be'lal is alive.
- 26/01/2010 07:38:40 AM
1217 Views
- 26/01/2010 11:42:04 AM
1397 Views
Re: I'm glad you think Be'lal is alive.
- 26/01/2010 08:49:00 AM
1409 Views
Re: I'm glad you think Be'lal is alive.
- 26/01/2010 09:19:35 AM
1201 Views
Moiraine probably learned it while researching with Adealas and Vandene. *NM*
- 26/01/2010 04:57:09 PM
930 Views
- 26/01/2010 11:42:04 AM
1397 Views
He was balefired by a direct stream in front of at least two credible witnesses.
- 26/01/2010 04:10:13 PM
1411 Views
Re: I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead.
- 25/01/2010 08:56:16 PM
1472 Views
I believe she's dead
- 25/01/2010 09:06:37 PM
1330 Views
Re: I believe she's dead
- 25/01/2010 09:09:58 PM
1366 Views
Besides, if it wasn't Graendal, it implies that she knew of Rand's plan, which is not feasible *NM*
- 26/01/2010 02:01:41 PM
731 Views
The compulsion did not disappear immediately. Read the damned scene!
- 25/01/2010 11:54:02 PM
1482 Views
Re: The compulsion did not disappear immediately. Read the damned scene!
- 26/01/2010 01:22:57 AM
1238 Views
Stop passing judgments...
- 26/01/2010 02:05:21 AM
1439 Views
But your theories are becoming increasingly farfetched
- 26/01/2010 04:21:21 AM
1326 Views
I repeat that I find her "death" monumental...
- 26/01/2010 07:16:13 PM
1298 Views
Re: I repeat that I find her "death" monumental...
- 26/01/2010 07:23:29 PM
1328 Views
Dude, then you derailed the thread...
- 26/01/2010 07:31:55 PM
1205 Views
no she said she wouldn't risk strength and skill in the same place
- 26/01/2010 08:51:31 AM
1262 Views
Re: no she said she wouldn't risk strength and skill in the same place
- 26/01/2010 11:37:26 AM
1413 Views
read the whole quote
- 26/01/2010 04:35:17 PM
1053 Views
LOL! You read the whole quote
- 26/01/2010 07:00:41 PM
1195 Views
the risk she won't take is strength and skill residing together.
- 27/01/2010 12:40:09 AM
1257 Views
Re: the risk she won't take is strength and skill residing together.
- 28/01/2010 04:28:21 PM
1376 Views
I don't see any flaws.
- 25/01/2010 09:14:44 PM
1465 Views
But...
- 25/01/2010 11:44:49 PM
1204 Views
Re: But...
- 26/01/2010 01:14:51 AM
1363 Views
That still doesn't make sense.
- 26/01/2010 02:23:12 AM
1448 Views
But, having a clean up guy does make sense.
- 26/01/2010 03:02:13 AM
1451 Views
- 26/01/2010 03:02:13 AM
1451 Views
But the clean up guy would require another clean up guy!
- 26/01/2010 03:35:44 AM
1285 Views
Nonsense.
- 26/01/2010 07:50:04 AM
1172 Views
Dude, read what I said please...
- 26/01/2010 07:21:52 PM
1372 Views
Re: Dude, read what I said please...
- 26/01/2010 09:28:25 PM
1342 Views
Kerb had no initiative... he was under too heavy a Compulsion to think for himself
- 27/01/2010 12:45:47 AM
1216 Views
I think he had some, albeit probably not a whole lot
- 27/01/2010 01:03:44 AM
1267 Views
Nynaeve and Elayne were under a weaker compulsion...
- 27/01/2010 03:10:52 AM
1117 Views
We don't know that, exactly
- 27/01/2010 03:50:44 AM
1160 Views
Messenger was running around being obvious. Noone would suspect Kerb though. Case Closed. *NM*
- 26/01/2010 11:08:16 AM
837 Views
Thank the creator you're not in the police then. *NM*
- 26/01/2010 07:22:29 PM
798 Views
Ok, in more detail:
- 26/01/2010 08:16:30 PM
1371 Views
Thoughts
- 26/01/2010 01:05:45 AM
1197 Views
Nope. Ramshalan was just "collecting taxes" or something.
- 26/01/2010 11:10:25 AM
1165 Views
Re: Nope. Ramshalan was NOT just "collecting taxes" or something.
- 26/01/2010 05:41:17 PM
1226 Views
By, the way, if I understand this correctly...
- 26/01/2010 04:49:45 PM
1462 Views
I'm not arguing she's alive, but...
- 26/01/2010 07:29:42 PM
1267 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but...
- 26/01/2010 09:42:52 PM
1039 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but...
- 27/01/2010 03:26:46 AM
1302 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but...
- 27/01/2010 04:05:23 AM
1379 Views
That's not fair
- 27/01/2010 04:09:38 AM
1235 Views
I agree about the 'awesome' part
.
- 27/01/2010 05:41:00 AM
1183 Views
.
- 27/01/2010 05:41:00 AM
1183 Views
Does anybody have a link to it? (nothing on Google). I'm intrigued. *NM*
- 27/01/2010 08:27:13 AM
736 Views
It was on Wotmania. Someone copied all the theories, but I don't recall whom. *NM*
- 27/01/2010 08:31:00 AM
863 Views
I just think it's funny that what you call omniscience has been done by the Forsaken before.
- 27/01/2010 02:02:44 PM
1195 Views
But Graendal was the victim of a greater plot.
- 27/01/2010 05:30:28 PM
1315 Views
So your response is that Ishamael/Moridin is omniscient, not Graendal.
- 27/01/2010 05:57:20 PM
1411 Views
Re: So your response is that Ishamael/Moridin is omniscient, not Graendal.
- 28/01/2010 04:05:21 AM
1378 Views
Give me one example. Just one. *NM*
- 27/01/2010 06:52:44 PM
812 Views
Ishamael plans millennia ahead by sowing the seeds for the Black Ajah, the Seanchan and the current
- 28/01/2010 01:57:39 PM
1353 Views
Not even comparable.
- 28/01/2010 06:31:06 PM
1117 Views
Re: Not even comparable.
- 28/01/2010 07:50:38 PM
1245 Views
Could you please take the effort to read my posts?
- 28/01/2010 10:45:01 PM
1212 Views
And, just to double post:
- 27/01/2010 07:12:17 PM
1005 Views
Re: And, just to double post:
- 27/01/2010 08:25:45 PM
1337 Views
Nice answer.
- 28/01/2010 12:10:27 AM
1312 Views
Re: Nice answer.
- 28/01/2010 01:55:16 PM
1253 Views
Hilarious.
- 28/01/2010 06:36:22 PM
1385 Views
Re: Hilarious.
- 28/01/2010 07:15:20 PM
1259 Views
Re: Hilarious.
- 28/01/2010 07:41:29 PM
1287 Views
Re: Hilarious.
- 28/01/2010 07:53:34 PM
1141 Views
Re: Hilarious.
- 28/01/2010 10:55:57 PM
1312 Views
That's because you didn't look at other posts.
- 29/01/2010 03:37:08 PM
1252 Views
Moridin's main directive was..
- 29/01/2010 03:57:41 PM
1298 Views
Re: Moridin's main directive was..
- 29/01/2010 04:50:16 PM
1374 Views
Preventing order wasn't accomplished...
- 29/01/2010 05:12:22 PM
1306 Views
I disagree.
- 29/01/2010 05:28:59 PM
1679 Views
I will stop our discussion here; the posts are already pushed too far to the right of my display.
*NM*
- 29/01/2010 06:14:29 PM
658 Views
*NM*
- 29/01/2010 06:14:29 PM
658 Views
You expect me to search every post you've made on this forum, ever?
- 29/01/2010 06:50:49 PM
1240 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but...
- 27/01/2010 01:00:42 AM
1259 Views
I don't see a flaw
- 27/01/2010 06:24:44 AM
1336 Views
Re: I don't see a flaw
- 27/01/2010 04:18:27 PM
1302 Views
Yup, I'm tired of seeing arguments that ignore the need to back up their own claims.
- 27/01/2010 05:47:16 PM
1286 Views
I don't think there's a flaw, I think you misinterpret Graendal's plans
- 27/01/2010 06:57:44 PM
1284 Views
Good point on Ituralde - he may still be Compulsed in ways we're yet to discover. *NM*
- 28/01/2010 04:11:15 AM
771 Views
Re: Graendal's death would imply a major logical flaw in the story.
- 27/01/2010 09:11:32 PM
1270 Views

*NM*