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Re: Graendal's death would imply a major logical flaw in the story. taura-tierno Send a noteboard - 27/01/2010 09:11:32 PM
"Is Graendal dead?" may well be the most contentious issue in tGS. Like Asmodean's death in tFoH, there is considerable mystery surrounding her death in this book.

While I would say she is alive, that is not what I want to focus on in this post. Instead, let us assume that she is indeed dead, never to return again.

It is then important for us to realize that the events leading to her death are atrociously illogical. How?...

Let's look at how her location was identified.

First, the one person who could tell, her compelled messenger-slave, was killed before he could reveal anything. That is in line with what Graendal would do to protect herself from Rand. It fits, because she knew he was coming, and would obviously do something about it. That is what Rand assumes, and we agreed with this.

The next few steps, however, are quite mind boggling.

We're told another compelled slave of Graendal's, who for some reason, was compelled at Natrin's Barrow rather than in Bandar Eban itself, poisoned the messenger.

He then stays back in the location of the crime! Not only that, he now starts poisoning the merchant Rand imprisons with a slow acting poison!

One might say this was to prevent her from revealing any detail she got out of the messenger. But we know Graendal's compulsion is fool proof from non-OP methods of torture. We see the guys in the prison tell Nynaeve quite clearly that the messenger said nothing at all.

Why kill the merchant then?

If all this has no deeper meaning, if all this did not lead to a trap, then Graendal must have had a bout of extraordinary idiocy.

How do I prevent al'Thor from finding my hideout? Oh! I know! I'll have the guy who can tell him poisoned! I'll send someone from Natrin's Barrow. Then I'll have him stay and needlessly poison others so al'Thor will get suspicious and find him and... oh!

It takes the meanest intelligence to figure that Kerb was not going to help but hinder any plans of Graendal to stay hidden. Graendal, the super smart Forsaken, would certainly have figured this out.

Another alternative is that she did indeed want to lure Rand to her lair, but did not expect the Balefire and so she died.

That is, however, also illogical. Not only do we know that Graendal is never going to have an all out fight, we know she knows that Semirhage was captured by Rand.

She is also aware he has the CK, courtesy Cyndane. She may not know to expect Balefire, but she would certainly know she would stand no chance whatsoever against Rand.

The conclusion? If Graendal is dead, then it was one of the shoddiest sequences in all of WoT. It cheapens and lessens the worth of tGS quite spectacularly.



You base much of your argument on the fact that Kerb revealed her location, and that it would be illogical of Graendal to arrange that poisoning and everything, with someone who knows where she is.

But all Forsaken believe themselves superior to everyone in the 3rd Age, except perhaps Rand. Why would Graendal believe that, even IF someone did find one of her Compelled victims, someone would be able to remove the Compulsion? Let alone manage it, and have the person survive long enough to say anything at all. Maybe she counted on the boy dying immediately upon the removal of her weaves. Which he didn't.

Still, she's the best at Compulsion. There's no reason for her, in her arrogance, to believe that anyone could successfully undo her Compulsion to the degree that Nynaeve managed. And even Nynaeve wouldn't have been able to do it without Rand's instruction, and even then, it was a great challenge for her.
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Graendal's death would imply a major logical flaw in the story. - 25/01/2010 05:18:23 PM 2754 Views
I think Graendal's death was a great scene - 25/01/2010 05:26:51 PM 1485 Views
The scene itself was great. The rest is crap. - 25/01/2010 05:37:44 PM 1284 Views
After reading 12 WoT books... - 25/01/2010 05:46:31 PM 1385 Views
You also ignored... - 25/01/2010 08:15:34 PM 1397 Views
and of course, the obvious theme - 25/01/2010 09:02:56 PM 1207 Views
Bah! - 25/01/2010 11:49:33 PM 1351 Views
It's possible that this was mainly written by BS - 26/01/2010 12:03:03 PM 1317 Views
I agree that the set up for her death was rather lame - 25/01/2010 06:14:07 PM 1554 Views
I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead. - 25/01/2010 06:18:30 PM 1344 Views
Re: I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead. - 25/01/2010 06:44:34 PM 1280 Views
well one of her major character parallels is Josef Mengel - 25/01/2010 06:54:43 PM 1102 Views
Can you think of any way that would explain the Compulsion vanishing? - 25/01/2010 07:52:40 PM 1105 Views
that's kind of my whole point - 25/01/2010 08:43:19 PM 1032 Views
Uh, not actually at all really - 25/01/2010 09:07:52 PM 1335 Views
*shudders* - 26/01/2010 02:27:35 AM 1206 Views
*shrugs* - 26/01/2010 08:47:21 AM 1236 Views
None of those "easy explanations" could work - 26/01/2010 07:14:16 AM 1143 Views
my entire problem with the scene is that it just felt too open ended - 26/01/2010 08:58:37 AM 1219 Views
Can't she knot it to disapate after being examined once? - 26/01/2010 03:43:55 AM 1063 Views
Do we have evidence that this is possible? - 26/01/2010 03:44:48 AM 1226 Views
why would Graendal do that anyway? - 26/01/2010 04:26:38 AM 1240 Views
Re: why would Graendal do that anyway? - 03/02/2010 02:52:32 AM 1181 Views
Re: I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead. - 26/01/2010 02:03:51 AM 1296 Views
I'm glad you think Be'lal is alive. - 26/01/2010 07:38:40 AM 1049 Views
Re: I'm glad you think Be'lal is alive. - 26/01/2010 08:49:00 AM 1251 Views
Re: I'm glad you think Be'lal is alive. - 26/01/2010 09:19:35 AM 1032 Views
- 26/01/2010 11:42:04 AM 1232 Views
Didn't Balthamel and Aginor leave corpses? - 26/01/2010 04:35:19 PM 1221 Views
Re: Didn't Balthamel and Aginor leave corpses? - 26/01/2010 07:06:01 PM 1099 Views
Re: - 26/01/2010 04:44:06 PM 1210 Views
He was balefired by a direct stream in front of at least two credible witnesses. - 26/01/2010 04:10:13 PM 1204 Views
Me, Too. - 28/01/2010 08:00:09 PM 1201 Views
Re: I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead. - 25/01/2010 08:56:16 PM 1318 Views
I believe she's dead - 25/01/2010 09:06:37 PM 1152 Views
Re: I believe she's dead - 25/01/2010 09:09:58 PM 1198 Views
I don't think she would have taught anyone - 25/01/2010 09:18:03 PM 1021 Views
The compulsion did not disappear immediately. Read the damned scene! - 25/01/2010 11:54:02 PM 1326 Views
Re: The compulsion did not disappear immediately. Read the damned scene! - 26/01/2010 01:22:57 AM 1076 Views
Stop passing judgments... - 26/01/2010 02:05:21 AM 1263 Views
But your theories are becoming increasingly farfetched - 26/01/2010 04:21:21 AM 1138 Views
I repeat that I find her "death" monumental... - 26/01/2010 07:16:13 PM 1114 Views
Re: I repeat that I find her "death" monumental... - 26/01/2010 07:23:29 PM 1142 Views
Dude, then you derailed the thread... - 26/01/2010 07:31:55 PM 1046 Views
Not really - 26/01/2010 07:35:06 PM 1159 Views
Re: Not really - 26/01/2010 07:45:20 PM 1226 Views
Re: Not really - 28/01/2010 04:27:17 PM 1143 Views
Re: Stop passing judgments... - 26/01/2010 04:40:37 PM 1107 Views
*NM* - 26/01/2010 05:00:10 PM 606 Views
Everyone can see residues- only a select few can "read" them - 26/01/2010 07:42:19 AM 1162 Views
no she said she wouldn't risk strength and skill in the same place - 26/01/2010 08:51:31 AM 1077 Views
Re: no she said she wouldn't risk strength and skill in the same place - 26/01/2010 11:37:26 AM 1203 Views
read the whole quote - 26/01/2010 04:35:17 PM 898 Views
LOL! You read the whole quote - 26/01/2010 07:00:41 PM 1011 Views
the risk she won't take is strength and skill residing together. - 27/01/2010 12:40:09 AM 1090 Views
Re: the risk she won't take is strength and skill residing together. - 28/01/2010 04:28:21 PM 1230 Views
I don't see any flaws. - 25/01/2010 09:14:44 PM 1264 Views
But... - 25/01/2010 11:44:49 PM 1019 Views
Re: But... - 26/01/2010 01:14:51 AM 1156 Views
That is what I thought ... - 26/01/2010 01:24:18 AM 1074 Views
That still doesn't make sense. - 26/01/2010 02:23:12 AM 1250 Views
But, having a clean up guy does make sense. - 26/01/2010 03:02:13 AM 1286 Views
But the clean up guy would require another clean up guy! - 26/01/2010 03:35:44 AM 1136 Views
Re: But the clean up guy would require another clean up guy! - 26/01/2010 04:12:41 AM 1068 Views
Nonsense. - 26/01/2010 07:50:04 AM 1005 Views
Dude, read what I said please... - 26/01/2010 07:21:52 PM 1189 Views
Re: Dude, read what I said please... - 26/01/2010 09:28:25 PM 1172 Views
Kerb had no initiative... he was under too heavy a Compulsion to think for himself - 27/01/2010 12:45:47 AM 1057 Views
I think he had some, albeit probably not a whole lot - 27/01/2010 01:03:44 AM 1110 Views
Nynaeve and Elayne were under a weaker compulsion... - 27/01/2010 03:10:52 AM 931 Views
We don't know that, exactly - 27/01/2010 03:50:44 AM 1002 Views
If you cannot provide an answer... - 27/01/2010 03:10:40 AM 1080 Views
Seriously? - 27/01/2010 03:55:57 AM 1104 Views
Maybe... - 27/01/2010 11:08:10 AM 1065 Views
Messenger was running around being obvious. Noone would suspect Kerb though. Case Closed. *NM* - 26/01/2010 11:08:16 AM 755 Views
Thank the creator you're not in the police then. *NM* - 26/01/2010 07:22:29 PM 695 Views
Ok, in more detail: - 26/01/2010 08:16:30 PM 1179 Views
I'm tired of making this point... - 26/01/2010 08:39:22 PM 925 Views
Re: I'm tired of making this point... - 26/01/2010 08:44:51 PM 1104 Views
Thoughts - 26/01/2010 01:05:45 AM 1020 Views
But that means she's dead - 26/01/2010 01:20:19 AM 1061 Views
Re: But that means she's dead - 26/01/2010 05:31:25 AM 1157 Views
Nope. Ramshalan was just "collecting taxes" or something. - 26/01/2010 11:10:25 AM 997 Views
Re: Nope. Ramshalan was NOT just "collecting taxes" or something. - 26/01/2010 05:41:17 PM 1068 Views
By, the way, if I understand this correctly... - 26/01/2010 04:49:45 PM 1234 Views
Indeed... - 26/01/2010 05:13:53 PM 1243 Views
Re: Indeed... - 26/01/2010 07:04:40 PM 1065 Views
I'm not arguing she's alive, but... - 26/01/2010 07:29:42 PM 1084 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but... - 26/01/2010 07:58:41 PM 1079 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but... - 26/01/2010 09:42:52 PM 890 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but... - 27/01/2010 03:26:46 AM 1096 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but... - 27/01/2010 04:05:23 AM 1206 Views
That's not fair - 27/01/2010 04:09:38 AM 1045 Views
I agree about the 'awesome' part . - 27/01/2010 05:41:00 AM 1022 Views
I just think it's funny that what you call omniscience has been done by the Forsaken before. - 27/01/2010 02:02:44 PM 1019 Views
But Graendal was the victim of a greater plot. - 27/01/2010 05:30:28 PM 1127 Views
So your response is that Ishamael/Moridin is omniscient, not Graendal. - 27/01/2010 05:57:20 PM 1195 Views
Give me one example. Just one. *NM* - 27/01/2010 06:52:44 PM 721 Views
Ishamael plans millennia ahead by sowing the seeds for the Black Ajah, the Seanchan and the current - 28/01/2010 01:57:39 PM 1195 Views
Not even comparable. - 28/01/2010 06:31:06 PM 954 Views
Re: Not even comparable. - 28/01/2010 07:50:38 PM 1065 Views
Could you please take the effort to read my posts? - 28/01/2010 10:45:01 PM 1019 Views
Re: Could you please take the effort to read my posts? - 29/01/2010 03:49:43 PM 1068 Views
Re: Could you please take the effort to read my posts? - 29/01/2010 06:40:43 PM 1051 Views
And, just to double post: - 27/01/2010 07:12:17 PM 836 Views
Re: And, just to double post: - 27/01/2010 08:25:45 PM 1114 Views
Nice answer. - 28/01/2010 12:10:27 AM 1163 Views
Re: Nice answer. - 28/01/2010 01:55:16 PM 1092 Views
Hilarious. - 28/01/2010 06:36:22 PM 1202 Views
Re: Hilarious. - 28/01/2010 07:15:20 PM 1089 Views
Re: Hilarious. - 28/01/2010 07:41:29 PM 1104 Views
Re: Hilarious. - 28/01/2010 07:53:34 PM 955 Views
Re: Hilarious. - 28/01/2010 10:55:57 PM 1138 Views
That's because you didn't look at other posts. - 29/01/2010 03:37:08 PM 1088 Views
Moridin's main directive was.. - 29/01/2010 03:57:41 PM 1122 Views
Re: Moridin's main directive was.. - 29/01/2010 04:50:16 PM 1163 Views
Preventing order wasn't accomplished... - 29/01/2010 05:12:22 PM 1132 Views
I disagree. - 29/01/2010 05:28:59 PM 1514 Views
You expect me to search every post you've made on this forum, ever? - 29/01/2010 06:50:49 PM 1051 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but... - 27/01/2010 01:00:42 AM 1071 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but... - 27/01/2010 03:26:56 AM 1122 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but... - 27/01/2010 05:35:39 AM 1096 Views
I don't see a flaw - 27/01/2010 06:24:44 AM 1182 Views
Re: I don't see a flaw - 27/01/2010 04:18:27 PM 1128 Views
Let's give you one logic path for Millisair being poisoned. - 27/01/2010 05:47:04 PM 1120 Views
Spot on. *NM* - 28/01/2010 04:09:26 AM 714 Views
I don't think there's a flaw, I think you misinterpret Graendal's plans - 27/01/2010 06:57:44 PM 1099 Views
Good point on Ituralde - he may still be Compulsed in ways we're yet to discover. *NM* - 28/01/2010 04:11:15 AM 695 Views
Compulsion is limited - 28/01/2010 04:30:24 PM 1079 Views
Re: Compulsion is limited - 28/01/2010 06:35:05 PM 1211 Views
Re: Compulsion is limited - 28/01/2010 08:26:37 PM 987 Views
Re: Graendal's death would imply a major logical flaw in the story. - 27/01/2010 09:11:32 PM 1084 Views
There's really no further purpose for her character. - 09/02/2010 10:52:58 PM 1163 Views

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