GRRM completely shit the bed on Jon's arc within this book. That's the truth.
Libby Send a noteboard - 16/07/2011 12:51:08 AM
Let me get this straight, sending the ships up to Hardholme (which was stupid). I get Jon's he's reasoning. Save lives. Less enemy later on. But come on... sending ships filled with Brothers, already depleted in number following the Fist of the First Men massacre, into a stormy autumn sea that has already sunk several ships to save wildings in a haunted town. It was stupid and destined for disaster. And it did, but I digress...
Then, with those Brothers now placed in peril, you basically say "PEACE OUT, GOING TO SAVE MY OLD HOME AND MY SISTER IN WINTERFELL" on the eve of going to rescue them. That's a clear breaking of his vow. The Lord Commander basically saying you are on your own as things go to shit? Dishonoring of the vows that he has fought for over FIVE BOOKS?
Am I really suppose to believe that? That was completely, utterly out of character for Jon. I just don't see why out of all the crap the world has piled on Jon to break his vows and abandon his post - he chose THAT one. Because Ramsay threatened his sister? Who he clearly admitted he didn't have? Without any confirmation that anything he wrote was true? When you've known about her marriage for weeks and upheld your vow. Really?
Hell, I would have stabbed him myself if I was there. Yes, I'm aware of the prophecy and Jon is likely to be resurrected. Doesn't change the fact that GRRM essentially character assassinated Jon's development.
Aware of what happened to Eddard Stark and Robb, given numerous warnings by Mel, having no body-guard around him due to not wanting to be seen as weak, not consolidating his power when his grip on the Nights Watch is still tenuous. In total, a convenient lack of any sort of political acumen so that Martin can advance his myth-arc further. Martin appears to have a sincere belief that a good person cannot be a good leader, and is bound by justice, duty, honor, mercy, what-have-you to do very, very stupid things. This seems to go double for the Starks. This is one of my major problems with this book. Characters are making mistakes that they should've learned from four books ago.
I really despised the parallels being drawn between Jon/Ghost and Robb/Grey Wind towards the end of his arc, REALLY fucking despised it. I thought he would have AT LEAST would have been smart enough to keep Ghost near him, especially considering how much the two had gone through and how close their bond was. You could never really be too sure about Robb and Grey Wind, even though from what you know Grey Wind was extremely obedient and loyal, but I can't help but think Jon should have known better.
Then, with those Brothers now placed in peril, you basically say "PEACE OUT, GOING TO SAVE MY OLD HOME AND MY SISTER IN WINTERFELL" on the eve of going to rescue them. That's a clear breaking of his vow. The Lord Commander basically saying you are on your own as things go to shit? Dishonoring of the vows that he has fought for over FIVE BOOKS?
Am I really suppose to believe that? That was completely, utterly out of character for Jon. I just don't see why out of all the crap the world has piled on Jon to break his vows and abandon his post - he chose THAT one. Because Ramsay threatened his sister? Who he clearly admitted he didn't have? Without any confirmation that anything he wrote was true? When you've known about her marriage for weeks and upheld your vow. Really?
Hell, I would have stabbed him myself if I was there. Yes, I'm aware of the prophecy and Jon is likely to be resurrected. Doesn't change the fact that GRRM essentially character assassinated Jon's development.
Aware of what happened to Eddard Stark and Robb, given numerous warnings by Mel, having no body-guard around him due to not wanting to be seen as weak, not consolidating his power when his grip on the Nights Watch is still tenuous. In total, a convenient lack of any sort of political acumen so that Martin can advance his myth-arc further. Martin appears to have a sincere belief that a good person cannot be a good leader, and is bound by justice, duty, honor, mercy, what-have-you to do very, very stupid things. This seems to go double for the Starks. This is one of my major problems with this book. Characters are making mistakes that they should've learned from four books ago.
I really despised the parallels being drawn between Jon/Ghost and Robb/Grey Wind towards the end of his arc, REALLY fucking despised it. I thought he would have AT LEAST would have been smart enough to keep Ghost near him, especially considering how much the two had gone through and how close their bond was. You could never really be too sure about Robb and Grey Wind, even though from what you know Grey Wind was extremely obedient and loyal, but I can't help but think Jon should have known better.
A Dance with Dragons discussion thread
- 11/07/2011 10:48:23 PM
6698 Views
A general question to get the discussion started: will two more books be enough?
- 12/07/2011 02:22:52 PM
2440 Views
It'll be tight.
- 12/07/2011 04:32:39 PM
2441 Views
What does "resurrection-as-PWWP Jon" mean? Got it - Prince Who Was Promised!
- 18/08/2011 08:59:44 PM
2329 Views
No but I think 3 will be possible
- 26/07/2011 03:15:02 AM
2215 Views
Hero of the book?
- 12/07/2011 10:12:02 PM
2544 Views
Barristan should be renamed as Ser Grandfather, you do not mess with Ser Grandfather *NM*
- 26/07/2011 03:32:09 AM
1286 Views
Asshole of the book?
- 12/07/2011 10:46:10 PM
2426 Views
Agreed.
- 12/07/2011 11:18:07 PM
2370 Views
Seconded. He'd probably make my short list of Assholes of the Series to date. *NM*
- 12/07/2011 11:25:04 PM
1149 Views
Daenerys Targaryen & lifetime achievement award to Lord Rickard Stark
- 17/08/2011 12:38:40 AM
2142 Views
Idiot of the book.
- 12/07/2011 11:21:51 PM
2458 Views
I think readers are being too hard on Quentyn, If anything I think Doran derserves more mocking.
- 17/07/2011 01:09:35 AM
2605 Views
Is there any hot sex scenes? I won't be able to read it for a while *NM*
- 13/07/2011 02:35:49 PM
1291 Views
YES!
- 14/07/2011 02:38:48 AM
2004 Views
- 14/07/2011 02:38:48 AM
2004 Views
I don't know what to think... (spoiler)
- 14/07/2011 08:59:39 AM
2391 Views
Probably not.
- 14/07/2011 09:19:03 AM
2349 Views
Re: Probably not.
- 14/07/2011 03:57:55 PM
2201 Views
What made least sense for me as far as that is concerned...
- 14/07/2011 11:51:20 AM
2264 Views
Something I totally missed first time through
- 14/07/2011 09:40:33 AM
2580 Views
I'm still not fully done, but about the Reek chapters...
- 14/07/2011 04:05:29 PM
2307 Views
GRRM completely shit the bed on Jon's arc within this book. That's the truth.
- 16/07/2011 12:51:08 AM
2370 Views
Having finished the book, my thoughts. (Spoilers)
- 16/07/2011 08:11:30 AM
2299 Views
Personally, I felt 'A Feast for Crows' was not only better written but more condensed.
- 17/07/2011 11:15:58 AM
2305 Views
Summed up like that there is no way to disagree with what you said
- 17/07/2011 11:33:01 AM
2285 Views
It should be re-titled A Jump with Sharks
- 17/07/2011 06:00:37 PM
2399 Views
Publishers are more interested in the bottom line.
- 18/07/2011 12:31:56 AM
2164 Views
Sadly, I am likely overestimating the intelligence of the readers.
- 18/07/2011 03:05:12 AM
2389 Views
I felt bummed by Sanderson's new series.
- 18/07/2011 05:25:09 AM
2272 Views
You might like this quote from House of Leaves by Mark Z Danielewski.
- 11/08/2011 03:42:05 PM
2359 Views
I'm afraid I have to agree with what seems to be the majority opinion...
- 17/07/2011 07:35:47 PM
2272 Views
And on a different note entirely: is it me, or did the book need more proofreading?
- 17/07/2011 07:39:15 PM
2172 Views
Re: And on a different note entirely: is it me, or did the book need more proofreading?
- 18/07/2011 02:17:41 AM
2355 Views
The book really shows it is AFFC part 2
- 26/07/2011 03:00:07 AM
2207 Views
No doubt, much like readers would've been more forgiving of aFfC if it'd been two years after SoS.
- 26/07/2011 11:28:43 PM
2229 Views
Am I The Only One In Love With Arya's Chapters? *spoilers maybe*
- 18/07/2011 02:22:00 AM
2216 Views
Unlike others, I won't start a separate thread to express my thoughts
- 19/07/2011 11:21:17 AM
2373 Views
- 19/07/2011 11:21:17 AM
2373 Views
Yeah, I wished there was a way to move them in here!
- 19/07/2011 01:42:51 PM
2148 Views
Me too... but going and complaining about them seems so lame, too.
- 19/07/2011 07:34:47 PM
2133 Views
I think you let him off too easily.
- 20/07/2011 04:19:07 AM
2258 Views
It might be that I expected even more of a longeur than what happened
- 20/07/2011 05:24:50 PM
2218 Views
Am I the only one who really likes...
- 20/07/2011 06:04:00 PM
2357 Views
I have to disagree in regards to Penny, she's a plot device and an annoying one at that.
- 21/07/2011 01:15:33 AM
2324 Views
Re: I have to disagree in regards to Penny, she's a plot device and an annoying one at that.
- 21/07/2011 09:33:00 AM
2171 Views
The six bodies fired by the trebuchet
- 20/07/2011 10:36:16 PM
2205 Views
Yes, I was confused by that too.
- 20/07/2011 10:53:35 PM
2163 Views
Probably pale mare victims. Seige warfare via plague
- 20/07/2011 11:23:10 PM
2180 Views
It's not six bodies, it's six trebuchets throwing corpses instead of stones
- 27/07/2011 01:03:51 AM
2236 Views
Stannis
- 21/07/2011 08:43:40 AM
2156 Views
I highly doubt he's dead
- 21/07/2011 07:29:59 PM
2206 Views
The bluff makes the most sense: if the Boltons beat Stannis, why does he ask for Theon & Jeyne?
- 22/07/2011 12:01:30 AM
2252 Views
The letter sounded like the ravings of a psychopath loosing control
- 27/07/2011 02:56:21 AM
2298 Views
The Aegon Twist. Something about this doesn't add up.
- 21/07/2011 10:43:43 PM
2277 Views
Which gods do you think are "real" in Martin's world?
- 22/07/2011 04:32:39 PM
2207 Views
None of them.
- 22/07/2011 06:25:19 PM
2107 Views
Is that personal opinion or based on something Martin said? *NM*
- 22/07/2011 06:37:57 PM
1172 Views
Opinion
- 22/07/2011 07:43:16 PM
2148 Views
Regardless of whether or not they actually get involved, their existence (or not) is signficant.
- 23/07/2011 02:17:48 AM
2022 Views
I think there are some god's, just given different names. Same with the magic.
- 22/07/2011 09:24:51 PM
2133 Views
Lose the apostrophe in the subject line. Then: on what basis do you assume this?
- 23/07/2011 02:28:49 AM
2167 Views
You might want to stop wasting time correcting others typos. As for the gods...
- 23/07/2011 04:53:59 AM
2065 Views
You might want to stop wasting time correcting others typos. As for the gods...
- 23/07/2011 04:53:59 AM
2065 Views
You might want to stop making them. Particularly glaring ones like that.
- 23/07/2011 05:01:03 AM
2235 Views
Morality stems from god?
- 22/07/2011 10:47:59 PM
2120 Views
On second thought, let's address the issue directly.
- 23/07/2011 05:14:59 AM
2232 Views
Perhaps...
- 24/07/2011 07:03:24 PM
2136 Views
Its simple...
- 24/07/2011 07:37:11 PM
2138 Views
I disagree...
- 25/07/2011 04:10:04 AM
2196 Views
Bullshit.
- 25/07/2011 05:44:41 AM
2077 Views
The Seven probably has more power and influence than any other religion though.
- 25/07/2011 07:51:59 PM
2024 Views
In Westeros, but I always got the feeling the Free Cities and other places didn't much care for them
- 26/07/2011 10:53:45 PM
2153 Views
Westeros is the biggest coherent civilisation in the ASoIaF world.
- 27/07/2011 12:56:21 AM
2184 Views
Some thoughts...
- 25/07/2011 04:54:05 AM
2144 Views
It's not an objective morality.
- 25/07/2011 05:41:33 AM
2093 Views
Its not that simple...
- 25/07/2011 06:21:39 AM
2170 Views
I don't disagree with most of what you said. I just reach a different conclusion.
- 25/07/2011 01:57:31 PM
2070 Views
Whats the best new POV
- 26/07/2011 03:14:05 AM
2166 Views
Things you missed till they were pointed out via others or via a reread
- 26/07/2011 03:23:53 AM
2312 Views
A bit.
- 26/07/2011 12:32:32 PM
2248 Views
- 26/07/2011 03:46:54 PM
2197 Views
- 26/07/2011 03:46:54 PM
2197 Views
Re:
- 27/07/2011 12:43:43 AM
2186 Views
- 27/07/2011 12:43:43 AM
2186 Views
Martin doesn't have to do anything
- 27/07/2011 01:33:36 AM
2231 Views
Re: Martin doesn't have to do anything
- 27/07/2011 04:38:19 AM
2092 Views
The crone who prophesied the stallion who mounts the world saw the stallions face
- 27/07/2011 05:13:28 AM
2263 Views
Eh?
- 29/07/2011 04:44:17 PM
2227 Views
This is complicated.
- 31/07/2011 10:43:15 PM
2454 Views
Wait...a woman crowned for beauty was the victorious mystery knight?
- 01/08/2011 03:00:49 AM
2118 Views
It is believed the Knight of the Laughing Tree is one of two people
- 01/08/2011 04:47:21 AM
2213 Views
Hizdahr a Harpy? Innocent or Not?
- 26/07/2011 03:36:56 AM
2449 Views
What is happening with the Maesters subplot? Any new leads?
- 26/07/2011 04:13:27 PM
2156 Views
Re: A Dance with Dragons discussion thread
- 29/07/2011 01:42:57 AM
2343 Views
Jon Snow is definitely Azor Ahai.
- 29/07/2011 07:31:17 PM
2678 Views
Yup.
- 31/07/2011 10:49:34 PM
2025 Views
I'm uncertain about that
- 01/08/2011 05:35:18 AM
2140 Views
True, but I wouldn't read too much into that.
- 01/08/2011 11:42:29 PM
2415 Views
Am I the only one who thinks...
- 09/08/2011 05:16:46 PM
2263 Views
I think Martin's gonna stick to Bran being the only one who does that
- 10/08/2011 09:25:12 AM
2335 Views
It's possible, the problem is Jon's warging skill isn't all that well developed.
- 10/08/2011 10:53:32 PM
2126 Views
Anyone have any thoughts as to the purpose of Arya's storyline?
- 14/08/2011 06:28:09 PM
2171 Views
She's being trained as an assassin, so the question is who is she going to kill?
- 16/08/2011 01:43:12 AM
2093 Views

*NM*