GRRM completely shit the bed on Jon's arc within this book. That's the truth.
Libby Send a noteboard - 16/07/2011 12:51:08 AM
Let me get this straight, sending the ships up to Hardholme (which was stupid). I get Jon's he's reasoning. Save lives. Less enemy later on. But come on... sending ships filled with Brothers, already depleted in number following the Fist of the First Men massacre, into a stormy autumn sea that has already sunk several ships to save wildings in a haunted town. It was stupid and destined for disaster. And it did, but I digress...
Then, with those Brothers now placed in peril, you basically say "PEACE OUT, GOING TO SAVE MY OLD HOME AND MY SISTER IN WINTERFELL" on the eve of going to rescue them. That's a clear breaking of his vow. The Lord Commander basically saying you are on your own as things go to shit? Dishonoring of the vows that he has fought for over FIVE BOOKS?
Am I really suppose to believe that? That was completely, utterly out of character for Jon. I just don't see why out of all the crap the world has piled on Jon to break his vows and abandon his post - he chose THAT one. Because Ramsay threatened his sister? Who he clearly admitted he didn't have? Without any confirmation that anything he wrote was true? When you've known about her marriage for weeks and upheld your vow. Really?
Hell, I would have stabbed him myself if I was there. Yes, I'm aware of the prophecy and Jon is likely to be resurrected. Doesn't change the fact that GRRM essentially character assassinated Jon's development.
Aware of what happened to Eddard Stark and Robb, given numerous warnings by Mel, having no body-guard around him due to not wanting to be seen as weak, not consolidating his power when his grip on the Nights Watch is still tenuous. In total, a convenient lack of any sort of political acumen so that Martin can advance his myth-arc further. Martin appears to have a sincere belief that a good person cannot be a good leader, and is bound by justice, duty, honor, mercy, what-have-you to do very, very stupid things. This seems to go double for the Starks. This is one of my major problems with this book. Characters are making mistakes that they should've learned from four books ago.
I really despised the parallels being drawn between Jon/Ghost and Robb/Grey Wind towards the end of his arc, REALLY fucking despised it. I thought he would have AT LEAST would have been smart enough to keep Ghost near him, especially considering how much the two had gone through and how close their bond was. You could never really be too sure about Robb and Grey Wind, even though from what you know Grey Wind was extremely obedient and loyal, but I can't help but think Jon should have known better.
Then, with those Brothers now placed in peril, you basically say "PEACE OUT, GOING TO SAVE MY OLD HOME AND MY SISTER IN WINTERFELL" on the eve of going to rescue them. That's a clear breaking of his vow. The Lord Commander basically saying you are on your own as things go to shit? Dishonoring of the vows that he has fought for over FIVE BOOKS?
Am I really suppose to believe that? That was completely, utterly out of character for Jon. I just don't see why out of all the crap the world has piled on Jon to break his vows and abandon his post - he chose THAT one. Because Ramsay threatened his sister? Who he clearly admitted he didn't have? Without any confirmation that anything he wrote was true? When you've known about her marriage for weeks and upheld your vow. Really?
Hell, I would have stabbed him myself if I was there. Yes, I'm aware of the prophecy and Jon is likely to be resurrected. Doesn't change the fact that GRRM essentially character assassinated Jon's development.
Aware of what happened to Eddard Stark and Robb, given numerous warnings by Mel, having no body-guard around him due to not wanting to be seen as weak, not consolidating his power when his grip on the Nights Watch is still tenuous. In total, a convenient lack of any sort of political acumen so that Martin can advance his myth-arc further. Martin appears to have a sincere belief that a good person cannot be a good leader, and is bound by justice, duty, honor, mercy, what-have-you to do very, very stupid things. This seems to go double for the Starks. This is one of my major problems with this book. Characters are making mistakes that they should've learned from four books ago.
I really despised the parallels being drawn between Jon/Ghost and Robb/Grey Wind towards the end of his arc, REALLY fucking despised it. I thought he would have AT LEAST would have been smart enough to keep Ghost near him, especially considering how much the two had gone through and how close their bond was. You could never really be too sure about Robb and Grey Wind, even though from what you know Grey Wind was extremely obedient and loyal, but I can't help but think Jon should have known better.
A Dance with Dragons discussion thread
- 11/07/2011 10:48:23 PM
6658 Views
A general question to get the discussion started: will two more books be enough?
- 12/07/2011 02:22:52 PM
2404 Views
It'll be tight.
- 12/07/2011 04:32:39 PM
2397 Views
What does "resurrection-as-PWWP Jon" mean? Got it - Prince Who Was Promised!
- 18/08/2011 08:59:44 PM
2289 Views
No but I think 3 will be possible
- 26/07/2011 03:15:02 AM
2181 Views
Hero of the book?
- 12/07/2011 10:12:02 PM
2510 Views
Barristan should be renamed as Ser Grandfather, you do not mess with Ser Grandfather *NM*
- 26/07/2011 03:32:09 AM
1267 Views
Asshole of the book?
- 12/07/2011 10:46:10 PM
2388 Views
Agreed.
- 12/07/2011 11:18:07 PM
2333 Views
Seconded. He'd probably make my short list of Assholes of the Series to date. *NM*
- 12/07/2011 11:25:04 PM
1130 Views
Daenerys Targaryen & lifetime achievement award to Lord Rickard Stark
- 17/08/2011 12:38:40 AM
2109 Views
Idiot of the book.
- 12/07/2011 11:21:51 PM
2424 Views
I think readers are being too hard on Quentyn, If anything I think Doran derserves more mocking.
- 17/07/2011 01:09:35 AM
2567 Views
Is there any hot sex scenes? I won't be able to read it for a while *NM*
- 13/07/2011 02:35:49 PM
1272 Views
YES!
- 14/07/2011 02:38:48 AM
1973 Views
- 14/07/2011 02:38:48 AM
1973 Views
I don't know what to think... (spoiler)
- 14/07/2011 08:59:39 AM
2357 Views
Probably not.
- 14/07/2011 09:19:03 AM
2314 Views
Re: Probably not.
- 14/07/2011 03:57:55 PM
2163 Views
What made least sense for me as far as that is concerned...
- 14/07/2011 11:51:20 AM
2222 Views
Something I totally missed first time through
- 14/07/2011 09:40:33 AM
2546 Views
I'm still not fully done, but about the Reek chapters...
- 14/07/2011 04:05:29 PM
2262 Views
GRRM completely shit the bed on Jon's arc within this book. That's the truth.
- 16/07/2011 12:51:08 AM
2332 Views
Having finished the book, my thoughts. (Spoilers)
- 16/07/2011 08:11:30 AM
2255 Views
Personally, I felt 'A Feast for Crows' was not only better written but more condensed.
- 17/07/2011 11:15:58 AM
2264 Views
Summed up like that there is no way to disagree with what you said
- 17/07/2011 11:33:01 AM
2248 Views
It should be re-titled A Jump with Sharks
- 17/07/2011 06:00:37 PM
2360 Views
Publishers are more interested in the bottom line.
- 18/07/2011 12:31:56 AM
2125 Views
Sadly, I am likely overestimating the intelligence of the readers.
- 18/07/2011 03:05:12 AM
2355 Views
I felt bummed by Sanderson's new series.
- 18/07/2011 05:25:09 AM
2217 Views
You might like this quote from House of Leaves by Mark Z Danielewski.
- 11/08/2011 03:42:05 PM
2285 Views
I'm afraid I have to agree with what seems to be the majority opinion...
- 17/07/2011 07:35:47 PM
2238 Views
And on a different note entirely: is it me, or did the book need more proofreading?
- 17/07/2011 07:39:15 PM
2134 Views
Re: And on a different note entirely: is it me, or did the book need more proofreading?
- 18/07/2011 02:17:41 AM
2320 Views
The book really shows it is AFFC part 2
- 26/07/2011 03:00:07 AM
2174 Views
No doubt, much like readers would've been more forgiving of aFfC if it'd been two years after SoS.
- 26/07/2011 11:28:43 PM
2190 Views
Am I The Only One In Love With Arya's Chapters? *spoilers maybe*
- 18/07/2011 02:22:00 AM
2182 Views
Unlike others, I won't start a separate thread to express my thoughts
- 19/07/2011 11:21:17 AM
2335 Views
- 19/07/2011 11:21:17 AM
2335 Views
Yeah, I wished there was a way to move them in here!
- 19/07/2011 01:42:51 PM
2104 Views
Me too... but going and complaining about them seems so lame, too.
- 19/07/2011 07:34:47 PM
2089 Views
I think you let him off too easily.
- 20/07/2011 04:19:07 AM
2223 Views
It might be that I expected even more of a longeur than what happened
- 20/07/2011 05:24:50 PM
2178 Views
Am I the only one who really likes...
- 20/07/2011 06:04:00 PM
2322 Views
I have to disagree in regards to Penny, she's a plot device and an annoying one at that.
- 21/07/2011 01:15:33 AM
2290 Views
Re: I have to disagree in regards to Penny, she's a plot device and an annoying one at that.
- 21/07/2011 09:33:00 AM
2135 Views
The six bodies fired by the trebuchet
- 20/07/2011 10:36:16 PM
2171 Views
Yes, I was confused by that too.
- 20/07/2011 10:53:35 PM
2127 Views
Probably pale mare victims. Seige warfare via plague
- 20/07/2011 11:23:10 PM
2144 Views
It's not six bodies, it's six trebuchets throwing corpses instead of stones
- 27/07/2011 01:03:51 AM
2202 Views
Stannis
- 21/07/2011 08:43:40 AM
2123 Views
I highly doubt he's dead
- 21/07/2011 07:29:59 PM
2179 Views
The bluff makes the most sense: if the Boltons beat Stannis, why does he ask for Theon & Jeyne?
- 22/07/2011 12:01:30 AM
2221 Views
The letter sounded like the ravings of a psychopath loosing control
- 27/07/2011 02:56:21 AM
2253 Views
The Aegon Twist. Something about this doesn't add up.
- 21/07/2011 10:43:43 PM
2219 Views
Which gods do you think are "real" in Martin's world?
- 22/07/2011 04:32:39 PM
2172 Views
None of them.
- 22/07/2011 06:25:19 PM
2077 Views
Is that personal opinion or based on something Martin said? *NM*
- 22/07/2011 06:37:57 PM
1154 Views
Opinion
- 22/07/2011 07:43:16 PM
2116 Views
Regardless of whether or not they actually get involved, their existence (or not) is signficant.
- 23/07/2011 02:17:48 AM
1990 Views
I think there are some god's, just given different names. Same with the magic.
- 22/07/2011 09:24:51 PM
2100 Views
Lose the apostrophe in the subject line. Then: on what basis do you assume this?
- 23/07/2011 02:28:49 AM
2133 Views
You might want to stop wasting time correcting others typos. As for the gods...
- 23/07/2011 04:53:59 AM
2028 Views
You might want to stop wasting time correcting others typos. As for the gods...
- 23/07/2011 04:53:59 AM
2028 Views
You might want to stop making them. Particularly glaring ones like that.
- 23/07/2011 05:01:03 AM
2204 Views
Morality stems from god?
- 22/07/2011 10:47:59 PM
2084 Views
On second thought, let's address the issue directly.
- 23/07/2011 05:14:59 AM
2193 Views
Perhaps...
- 24/07/2011 07:03:24 PM
2094 Views
Its simple...
- 24/07/2011 07:37:11 PM
2106 Views
I disagree...
- 25/07/2011 04:10:04 AM
2164 Views
Bullshit.
- 25/07/2011 05:44:41 AM
2035 Views
The Seven probably has more power and influence than any other religion though.
- 25/07/2011 07:51:59 PM
1985 Views
In Westeros, but I always got the feeling the Free Cities and other places didn't much care for them
- 26/07/2011 10:53:45 PM
2116 Views
Westeros is the biggest coherent civilisation in the ASoIaF world.
- 27/07/2011 12:56:21 AM
2154 Views
Some thoughts...
- 25/07/2011 04:54:05 AM
2112 Views
It's not an objective morality.
- 25/07/2011 05:41:33 AM
2063 Views
Its not that simple...
- 25/07/2011 06:21:39 AM
2133 Views
I don't disagree with most of what you said. I just reach a different conclusion.
- 25/07/2011 01:57:31 PM
2039 Views
Whats the best new POV
- 26/07/2011 03:14:05 AM
2127 Views
Things you missed till they were pointed out via others or via a reread
- 26/07/2011 03:23:53 AM
2259 Views
A bit.
- 26/07/2011 12:32:32 PM
2218 Views
- 26/07/2011 03:46:54 PM
2167 Views
- 26/07/2011 03:46:54 PM
2167 Views
Re:
- 27/07/2011 12:43:43 AM
2156 Views
- 27/07/2011 12:43:43 AM
2156 Views
Martin doesn't have to do anything
- 27/07/2011 01:33:36 AM
2195 Views
Re: Martin doesn't have to do anything
- 27/07/2011 04:38:19 AM
2059 Views
The crone who prophesied the stallion who mounts the world saw the stallions face
- 27/07/2011 05:13:28 AM
2210 Views
Eh?
- 29/07/2011 04:44:17 PM
2194 Views
This is complicated.
- 31/07/2011 10:43:15 PM
2420 Views
Wait...a woman crowned for beauty was the victorious mystery knight?
- 01/08/2011 03:00:49 AM
2080 Views
It is believed the Knight of the Laughing Tree is one of two people
- 01/08/2011 04:47:21 AM
2176 Views
Hizdahr a Harpy? Innocent or Not?
- 26/07/2011 03:36:56 AM
2409 Views
What is happening with the Maesters subplot? Any new leads?
- 26/07/2011 04:13:27 PM
2127 Views
Re: A Dance with Dragons discussion thread
- 29/07/2011 01:42:57 AM
2305 Views
Jon Snow is definitely Azor Ahai.
- 29/07/2011 07:31:17 PM
2647 Views
Yup.
- 31/07/2011 10:49:34 PM
1989 Views
I'm uncertain about that
- 01/08/2011 05:35:18 AM
2096 Views
True, but I wouldn't read too much into that.
- 01/08/2011 11:42:29 PM
2376 Views
Am I the only one who thinks...
- 09/08/2011 05:16:46 PM
2229 Views
I think Martin's gonna stick to Bran being the only one who does that
- 10/08/2011 09:25:12 AM
2295 Views
It's possible, the problem is Jon's warging skill isn't all that well developed.
- 10/08/2011 10:53:32 PM
2083 Views
Anyone have any thoughts as to the purpose of Arya's storyline?
- 14/08/2011 06:28:09 PM
2138 Views
She's being trained as an assassin, so the question is who is she going to kill?
- 16/08/2011 01:43:12 AM
2048 Views

*NM*