Active Users:490 Time:02/05/2025 09:40:32 PM
Please explain why you think we should consider you Christians. Tom Send a noteboard - 03/10/2011 04:33:06 PM
I could point out some of the countless problems that virtually everyone else has with your faith (the most notable being Joe Smith making up fake gold plates that he said were given to him by God in a language only he could read, making up entire civilizations that never existed and whose existence cannot be proven by one scrap of evidence, pretending to be able to translate Egyptian hieroglyphs and so making a fake "Book of Moses" out of a standard funerary text, rewriting your holy text on a nearly yearly basis to whitewash it - in some cases literally, as in the way black people were accepted in the 1970s - and make it acceptable to your changing ideas, silly ideas like the Adam-God doctrine, and a whole host of other foolishness).

However, let's just take a very simple approach and look at the Nicene Creed, the fundamental affirmation that separates Christians from people who talk about Jesus (like Jehovah's Witnesses). The Creed says (with questions from me interspersed throughout):

We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is seen and unseen.

Can you say this? Do you truly believe in ONE GOD? Did ONE GOD create all that is and ever was? If not, you are not Christians (or Jews or Muslims, for that matter).

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, one in Being with the Father. Through him all things were made.

Do you believe that Jesus Christ is GOD, that he is the SAME GOD as God the Father, that he is one in Being with the Father and that he was begotten, not made? That is to say, that he was not created by God the Father, that he is eternally existent (as the Gospel of John states: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" - this is a direct reference to Christ)? If you do not believe that Christ is God, that He is identical to God the Father and that he is eternally existent, you are not a Christian.

For us men and for our salvation He came down from heaven. By the power of the Holy Spirit He was born of the Virgin Mary, and became man. For our sake He was crucified under Pontius Pilate, He suffered, died, and was buried. On the third day He rose again in fulfillment of the Scriptures. He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.

To be Christian is to accept the miracle of the Incarnation, the miracle of the passion and death and the miracle of the Resurrection of Christ. Key to this acceptance is the concept that Christ has saved us by suffering and dying for us, and that this salvation is a gift that God has bestowed upon people. Though I loath to use Protestant terminology, we have been saved by the grace of God, not by our works.

He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and His kingdom will have no end.

Note that implicit in this is the statement that Christ appeared once, and only once, on this Earth, and not to sci-fi white Indians in a North America that had all sorts of technology that real Native Americans never had.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Giver of Life, who proceeds from the Father [Catholics add: and the Son]. With the Father and the Son He is worshiped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets.

The Holy Spirit is the third and crucial part of the Trinity of God. It is the expression of God within us and around us. The statement about "the Prophets" should be clarified in the context of the New Testament, which explicitly says that the gift of prophecy has been made unnecessary because Christ is better than, and in place of, any prophets. This is a fundamental dispute between Christians and Muslims because Muhammad is explicitly understood to be a "false prophet". Beware of any angels that purport to speak to you, the Bible says. Either you believe the Bible and Joe Smith was a fraud or agent of evil powers, or you disregard the Bible and are not Christian.

We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

One baptism, and not performed after death.

Christianity existed in this framework for over 1800 years until a dim-witted con man who made his money "divining" with a dowsing rod and a stupid rock claimed to have spoken to angels and sought to completely change virtually every statement made in the fundamental Christian profession of faith.

So please tell me, why should any Christian consider you to be Christian? Christians can accept you as fellow human beings and honest, decent people, but then again they can do that with anyone from any religion. Why should anyone consider you to be Christian?

Political correctness is the pettiest form of casuistry.

ἡ δὲ κἀκ τριῶν τρυπημάτων ἐργαζομένη ἐνεκάλει τῇ φύσει, δυσφορουμένη, ὅτι δὴ μὴ καὶ τοὺς τιτθοὺς αὐτῇ εὐρύτερον ἢ νῦν εἰσι τρυπώη, ὅπως καὶ ἄλλην ἐνταῦθα μίξιν ἐπιτεχνᾶσθαι δυνατὴ εἴη. – Procopius

Ummaka qinnassa nīk!

*MySmiley*
Reply to message
Mormons - 03/10/2011 05:46:10 AM 2465 Views
Questions. - 03/10/2011 11:13:25 AM 1205 Views
Ooh! Ooh! - 03/10/2011 11:18:38 AM 1074 Views
I don't watch it. - 04/10/2011 01:34:53 AM 1087 Views
Re: Questions. - 03/10/2011 01:28:28 PM 1185 Views
Re: Questions. - 03/10/2011 01:31:13 PM 1014 Views
Why did I look up what Quorn is? I didn't need to know that. *NM* - 03/10/2011 02:04:20 PM 657 Views
Wyld Stallyns!! - 03/10/2011 03:26:54 PM 991 Views
STATION! *NM* - 03/10/2011 11:00:35 PM 593 Views
Re: One of the best replies, ever, on the internet. *NM* - 06/10/2011 02:43:07 AM 642 Views
....did we just get door-to-door'd...ONLINE?!?! *NM* - 03/10/2011 11:34:19 AM 615 Views
Nope. - 04/10/2011 01:32:43 AM 1057 Views
there's no real point to it - 04/10/2011 02:37:24 AM 2081 Views
We could use an evil cackling smilie, we do have some other evil ones - 04/10/2011 02:49:12 AM 1015 Views
wasn't going to argue... *NM* - 04/10/2011 02:57:00 AM 591 Views
Do you ever giggle at the name "Moroni?" - 03/10/2011 11:39:55 AM 1125 Views
There are Mormon literalists? Seriously? *NM* - 03/10/2011 03:02:18 PM 602 Views
I know they don't have multiple wives anymore, so no misconception there - 03/10/2011 01:23:50 PM 1039 Views
There are Fundamentalist "Mormons" who do... - 03/10/2011 11:32:56 PM 964 Views
Don't get me wrong by the way, I've met wonderful Mormons - 04/10/2011 12:22:03 PM 1022 Views
Question: Why are you such a faggot? *NM* - 03/10/2011 02:23:45 PM 509 Views
Answer: because it's the only way he could return your burning love for him. - 03/10/2011 03:24:23 PM 731 Views
Oh dont be such a fuddy duddy. - 03/10/2011 10:42:06 PM 654 Views
Better a faggot than a fuckwad. Cheers fuckwad! *NM* - 04/10/2011 01:27:20 AM 629 Views
Well, I suppose you'ld be the one to know. *NM* - 04/10/2011 01:54:35 AM 558 Views
Really? You really just pulled a "takes one to know one"? *NM* - 04/10/2011 04:19:22 PM 662 Views
Re: You embarrass yourself. *NM* - 04/10/2011 01:56:02 AM 513 Views
I'll tell you whats embarresing... - 04/10/2011 02:08:02 AM 848 Views
That is hilarious. - 04/10/2011 03:10:50 AM 731 Views
Goodness.. - 04/10/2011 03:20:30 AM 663 Views
Re: - 04/10/2011 03:28:25 AM 700 Views
You know, my mother had a saying. - 04/10/2011 03:39:32 AM 741 Views
I think it's safe to say ... - 04/10/2011 04:09:17 AM 637 Views
I'm not sure which would be sadder... - 04/10/2011 11:32:55 AM 776 Views
*NM* - 04/10/2011 12:19:01 PM 597 Views
Re: You flatter me. *NM* - 04/10/2011 01:31:01 PM 624 Views
OK, you need to delete the "Re:" You're using it incorrectly - 04/10/2011 01:55:53 PM 657 Views
"Re" doesn't have to mean "reply", it can also mean "regarding". - 04/10/2011 02:01:31 PM 680 Views
Re: Re: - 04/10/2011 02:06:58 PM 682 Views
Re: Re: - 04/10/2011 02:12:57 PM 650 Views
Re: Also. - 04/10/2011 02:08:15 PM 693 Views
you are still using it incorrectly. *NM* - 04/10/2011 02:09:48 PM 636 Views
He's doing it on purpose though. - 04/10/2011 03:31:39 PM 764 Views
Re: Yeah, it's just a shtick... - 04/10/2011 03:47:17 PM 653 Views
Those were the good old days. - 04/10/2011 04:02:33 PM 668 Views
*NM* - 04/10/2011 10:02:30 PM 576 Views
I agree, it's driving me nuts *NM* - 04/10/2011 02:36:45 PM 566 Views
That's not quite right, actually. - 04/10/2011 03:25:54 PM 589 Views
Disagree. *NM* - 04/10/2011 10:04:09 PM 596 Views
Considering that "CaptainHammer" is LDS, I'd rather doubt he's gay. - 04/10/2011 02:32:56 AM 630 Views
Heh. Oh, Ryan. - 04/10/2011 04:36:43 PM 775 Views
*sigh* to all of you above.... - 04/10/2011 03:06:21 AM 673 Views
I thought that was "Do not talk about /b/"? *NM* - 04/10/2011 03:12:52 AM 655 Views
i don't know, but if THAT is the first rule... - 04/10/2011 03:41:20 AM 627 Views
Please explain why you think we should consider you Christians. - 03/10/2011 04:33:06 PM 1202 Views
you know, that does make me wonder though - 03/10/2011 04:58:21 PM 1096 Views
We're not as immovable as we are sometimes portrayed. - 03/10/2011 05:27:17 PM 1077 Views
"Even Christ didn't do that"? I can't agree. - 03/10/2011 09:00:34 PM 1062 Views
I conceded your last point. - 03/10/2011 10:14:28 PM 957 Views
Point of Anal Retentive Dissent: - 04/10/2011 03:54:00 PM 978 Views
That concept is alien to the Christian theological understanding, however. - 03/10/2011 10:18:55 PM 1071 Views
I understand what both you and Danny are saying - 04/10/2011 12:19:57 AM 1015 Views
Oh, that's very simple - 04/10/2011 04:02:24 AM 1035 Views
I honestly don't know what it would take. - 04/10/2011 07:41:55 AM 1033 Views
thank you, both of you - 04/10/2011 01:46:05 PM 1020 Views
I love the Nicene Creed. It is such an excellent encapsulation. - 03/10/2011 06:07:53 PM 1108 Views
Agreed. - 04/10/2011 04:44:49 PM 981 Views
The absolute best part about your post (plus the best thing about Mo's/LDS's) - 03/10/2011 09:02:17 PM 1055 Views
Glad you enjoyed it - 03/10/2011 10:10:39 PM 1141 Views
Though they can cause interesting changes in patterns. - 03/10/2011 10:16:55 PM 1081 Views
We believe that Jesus Christ is the Savior of all mankind, and the only way back to God. - 04/10/2011 01:29:30 AM 1130 Views
If you think the Book of Mormon was well-written, there is really little left to discuss. - 04/10/2011 03:57:08 AM 1302 Views
I never said well-written, I said complex. - 04/10/2011 07:04:24 AM 1182 Views
Ignore facts all you want to. - 05/10/2011 01:07:35 AM 1073 Views
Re: If you think the Book of Mormon was well-written, there is really little left to discuss. - 04/10/2011 07:24:27 AM 1273 Views
Woah nelly. - 04/10/2011 10:04:33 AM 1076 Views
I have to "Wow" as well... racist much? - 04/10/2011 01:52:48 PM 1004 Views
Re: I have to "Wow" as well... racist much? - 04/10/2011 04:42:47 PM 1109 Views
oh well that makes it all better... - 04/10/2011 04:54:14 PM 1116 Views
Exactly - 04/10/2011 06:00:54 PM 1015 Views
Was the twin banging and the gay wedding the same event? - 04/10/2011 06:36:03 PM 1099 Views
I guess this is a variation on Hams punishment; Ghav, at least should know better than to be shocked - 04/10/2011 04:13:59 PM 982 Views
it's not that we're surprised because it's "novel" - 04/10/2011 04:19:16 PM 1022 Views
It is not NECESSARILY racist. - 04/10/2011 04:39:33 PM 1045 Views
Sure, except ... - 04/10/2011 04:50:53 PM 1076 Views
Yeah, circular logic is fun, isn't it? - 05/10/2011 01:09:25 AM 998 Views
That sounds really nice. - 04/10/2011 06:38:29 PM 1032 Views
Why wait though? - 05/10/2011 12:12:21 AM 1202 Views
So that Vivien can avoid reading and thinking about the stuff that you just wrote. *NM* - 05/10/2011 12:28:23 AM 547 Views
Ack, not reading and thinking111 - 05/10/2011 12:36:11 AM 1022 Views
Yeah, that's what I thought. - 06/10/2011 05:43:57 PM 960 Views
I'm satisfied by that explanation. - 06/10/2011 08:51:15 PM 1195 Views
Re: I'm satisfied by that explanation. - 07/10/2011 07:45:29 PM 1038 Views
Oh no you idn't... *waves finger and weaves head* - 04/10/2011 03:53:07 AM 865 Views
....i don't know what you look like - 04/10/2011 03:54:56 AM 997 Views
Took the words right out of my mouth, repeatedly. - 04/10/2011 12:49:13 PM 1199 Views
Off-Topic - 05/10/2011 01:14:16 AM 972 Views
Hmm - 05/10/2011 02:03:13 AM 1161 Views
True - 05/10/2011 02:13:00 AM 948 Views
I think of Protestantism in terms similar to a Xerox copy. - 05/10/2011 04:57:42 AM 1065 Views
Maybe Xeroxes of abridged texts and dumbed down theology - 06/10/2011 02:26:58 AM 1176 Views
I like that analogy - an echo chamber! *NM* - 08/10/2011 10:44:04 PM 590 Views
Re: Off-Topic - 05/10/2011 02:56:50 AM 1200 Views
Uhh... - 05/10/2011 03:08:49 AM 991 Views
The people at the Nicene Council and the other councils were not prophets. - 05/10/2011 04:59:50 AM 1105 Views
And you know that because... why, again? - 05/10/2011 07:13:53 AM 1034 Views
Tough Crowd. - 03/10/2011 04:44:31 PM 1147 Views
No questions. Have a nice day. - 03/10/2011 11:40:58 PM 996 Views
Why don't they have anything approaching a formal theology? *NM* - 04/10/2011 03:58:16 AM 672 Views
Re: Why don't they have anything approaching a formal theology? - 04/10/2011 05:23:12 PM 1106 Views

Reply to Message