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Re: If you think the Book of Mormon was well-written, there is really little left to discuss. CaptainHammer Send a noteboard - 04/10/2011 07:24:27 AM
I will strive to ignore the taste of having thrown up in my mouth and continue, however.

Let's stick to some of the major disputes I have with what you wrote:

1. The fundamental, baseline requirement for being Christian is generally a belief in the Trinity, that God is one being in three Persons - Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and that Christ is God made man, who suffered, died and rose from the dead in an act of salvation. If you do not believe that, YOU ARE NOT CHRISTIANS. You can talk about Jesus and feel he's important, but Muslims, Baha'i and other groups like Jehovah's Witnesses do that. It doesn't make you Christian.


A1) Read this article. http://lds.org/general-conference/2007/10/the-only-true-god-and-jesus-christ-whom-he-hath-sent?lang=eng&query=need+latter+day+prophets This should clear things up on this matter.

2. You believe that God was as man is, and man will be as God is. This directly contradicts Isaiah, where God says there are no other gods. This is a rejection of the Trinity and a rejection of the Bible.


A2) Once again, we believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost. 1 Nephi 10:19 tells us that the time of the Lord is one eternal round. I don't think we have the capacity to understand this, just as we can't truly understand how God is without beginning or end. And about what Isaiah said, I think that God is saying that He is the only God for our world and that there is no other God for our world.

3. You ask where prophecy has been made obsolete. Hebrews 1:1. Furthermore, the Bible tells us to be on watch for false prophets and antichrists, and Joe Smith was definitely a false prophet. False prophets and antichrists deny Jesus is the Christ (1 John 2:22). We know a false prophet in two ways: (1) he asks us to follow gods other than God (Deuteronomy 13:1) or (2) if any prophecy he makes does not come true (Deuteronomy 18:21). Joe Smith said the US government would collapse before 1900, he said that there were people on the moon and a whole bunch of other things that were lies. He presumed to translate an Egyptian funerary scroll as a "Book of Moses", which was a lie and a fabrication. He also preaches polytheism in a convenient veil of "the Godhead", which is not the same as God the Father, who is not the only God in Joe Smith's little fantasy world. By either of those standards he would have been stoned to death under Biblical law.


A3) If God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, then why in these times would he just put an end to any prophecies? When Christ established His church in His mortal ministry, he called people to be prophets and apostles (Ephesians 4:11-12). If Christ had prophets and apostles in His church when he lived, then why would he decide that they are no longer necessary? Joseph Smith taught that Jesus Christ was the Son of God and that He was sent down to earth to atone for the sins of men. Is that not the same Christ in whom other Christians believe? Joseph Smith prophesied that a war would soon begin, starting with rebellions in South Carolina, that the South would divide itself from the North and that the South would call on many nations, Great Britain among these, to come help them. These all happened. As for the collapse of the United States government before the 1900s and people living on the moon? I have never heard of either of these. He would have been a martyr, as many prophets in old and new testament times also were martyrs.

4. Your baptism is not a baptism for the forgiveness of sins, which is what the Biblical baptism is all about: "Confessing their sins, they were baptized by [John] in the Jordan River" (Matthew 3:6).


A4) Article of Faith 4- We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost. How is that not being baptized and our sins forgiven?

5. The Book of Mormon is a direct contradiction of Galatians 1:9. Not only that, but you have refuted or ignored so much of the Bible that there is almost no point in having it sit next to the Book of Mormon. You should try reading the entire Bible, if only to realize that you are violating almost everything that it says.


A5) We believe that we have the restored gospel of Jesus Christ. This would be the same gospel that Christ taught in his mortal ministry.

6. Joe Smith was dim-witted. His Book of Mormon is a terrible farce of a book, written with no skill, repeating phrases from the King James Bible and garbling nearly all of them, and so riddled with errors and sentence fragments that it's been revised and revised and revised. It doesn't take a genius to write the Book of Mormon. Here, let me show you:

And it came to pass, that Jophim said to Jophiriah, his son, "Take thee thine oxen and scrumbles and cattle and goest thou unto the land of the Morriphi, and when thou arrivest, tell them that the LORD sends His wrath upon them, and take thou then their land from them. And it came to pass that Jophiriah took his oxen and scrumbles and cattle and went up to the land of the Morriphi, and he found there Cordiah, high priest of the Morriphi...

The entire book is bad copies of Jewish names with no etymology underlying them, made-up place names and a history that is a bad copy of some of the "historical" books of the Bible. Seriously, white people in North America with wheeled carts, cows, metal implements and a whole lot of other things that the Indians never had? There is no complexity to the Book of Mor(m)on. It's an awful parody of the Bible, made up by someone who had heard virtually nothing else in his sad life.


A6) The only thing I can say to this is that your haven't read the Book of Mormon with real intend to find out if these things are true. To me, I don't care if you can't find wheels of cows, I know that these teachings are true and that The Book of Mormon is true. But as for the white people in North America, we know that when the people became wicked, a curse of dark skin was placed upon them. If they were dark skinned before then whats the point of the curse?

7. Joe Smith was a con man, and he did try to make money. He went around with a dowsing rod and a "seeing glass" and told people that he'd find treasure on their property if they paid him money. Later on, he started a bank that was a pyramid scheme. All the way up until a rightly angry mob took justice into their own hands (I think he should have been tried and thrown in jail to rot), he was trying to get rich. He took money from his followers, he took their wives and he lived on other peoples' money. He was a true parasite. You would do well to read Fawn Brodie's No Man Knows My History, which is the biography that all non-Mormons generally agree to be accurate (Mormons usually stick their fingers in their ears and hum loudly to avoid hearing the truth). I also highly recommend The Mormon Mirage, which would confront you with just how far the Mormons have strayed from Christianity.


A7) These things you have clearly heard from people who know nothing of this church and of the prophet Joseph Smith.
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Mormons CaptainHammer - 03/10/2011 05:46:10 AM 2294 Views
Questions. Kuke - 03/10/2011 11:13:25 AM 1056 Views
Ooh! Ooh! Kuke - 03/10/2011 11:18:38 AM 909 Views
I don't watch it. Gher - 04/10/2011 01:34:53 AM 910 Views
Re: Questions. CaptainHammer - 03/10/2011 01:28:28 PM 1014 Views
Re: Questions. CaptainHammer - 03/10/2011 01:31:13 PM 834 Views
I don't understand why they would be called drinks, if they were not meant to be drunk. aerocontrols - 03/10/2011 03:28:48 PM 954 Views
Why did I look up what Quorn is? I didn't need to know that. *NM* beetnemesis - 03/10/2011 02:04:20 PM 594 Views
Wyld Stallyns!! aerocontrols - 03/10/2011 03:26:54 PM 847 Views
STATION! *NM* Two Wongs - 03/10/2011 11:00:35 PM 522 Views
Re: One of the best replies, ever, on the internet. *NM* Gaps - 06/10/2011 02:43:07 AM 568 Views
....did we just get door-to-door'd...ONLINE?!?! *NM* LadyLorraine - 03/10/2011 11:34:19 AM 550 Views
Nope. Gher - 04/10/2011 01:32:43 AM 888 Views
there's no real point to it LadyLorraine - 04/10/2011 02:37:24 AM 1898 Views
We could use an evil cackling smilie, we do have some other evil ones Isaac - 04/10/2011 02:49:12 AM 863 Views
wasn't going to argue... *NM* LadyLorraine - 04/10/2011 02:57:00 AM 516 Views
Do you ever giggle at the name "Moroni?" Ghavrel - 03/10/2011 11:39:55 AM 952 Views
There are Mormon literalists? Seriously? *NM* Legolas - 03/10/2011 03:02:18 PM 531 Views
In fairness, I wonder the same about Christian literalists. *NM* Ghavrel - 03/10/2011 07:57:19 PM 550 Views
Yeah, but if you're gonna believe absurdities... Legolas - 03/10/2011 09:02:32 PM 940 Views
Are you trying to suggest that "Reformed" or some other brand of scientology is plausible? Joel - 04/10/2011 04:28:40 PM 894 Views
Actually, no. It'd be like laughing at... Hosea. Or Nemeiah. It's just an old name. Gher - 04/10/2011 12:30:57 AM 852 Views
I know they don't have multiple wives anymore, so no misconception there ironclad - 03/10/2011 01:23:50 PM 890 Views
There are Fundamentalist "Mormons" who do... Danu - 03/10/2011 11:32:56 PM 816 Views
Don't get me wrong by the way, I've met wonderful Mormons ironclad - 04/10/2011 12:22:03 PM 867 Views
Question: Why are you such a faggot? *NM* Urza - 03/10/2011 02:23:45 PM 439 Views
Answer: because it's the only way he could return your burning love for him. Nate - 03/10/2011 03:24:23 PM 666 Views
Oh dont be such a fuddy duddy. Urza - 03/10/2011 10:42:06 PM 559 Views
Better a faggot than a fuckwad. Cheers fuckwad! *NM* everynametaken - 04/10/2011 01:27:20 AM 557 Views
Well, I suppose you'ld be the one to know. *NM* Urza - 04/10/2011 01:54:35 AM 498 Views
Really? You really just pulled a "takes one to know one"? *NM* Kronin al'Sulc - 04/10/2011 04:19:22 PM 590 Views
Re: You embarrass yourself. *NM* Gaps - 04/10/2011 01:56:02 AM 446 Views
I'll tell you whats embarresing... Urza - 04/10/2011 02:08:02 AM 772 Views
That is hilarious. Nate - 04/10/2011 03:10:50 AM 660 Views
Goodness.. Urza - 04/10/2011 03:20:30 AM 606 Views
Re: Nate - 04/10/2011 03:28:25 AM 636 Views
You know, my mother had a saying. Urza - 04/10/2011 03:39:32 AM 668 Views
I think it's safe to say ... Nate - 04/10/2011 04:09:17 AM 566 Views
I'm not sure which would be sadder... Legolas - 04/10/2011 11:32:55 AM 706 Views
*NM* ironclad - 04/10/2011 12:19:01 PM 532 Views
Re: You flatter me. *NM* Gaps - 04/10/2011 01:31:01 PM 553 Views
OK, you need to delete the "Re:" You're using it incorrectly beetnemesis - 04/10/2011 01:55:53 PM 582 Views
"Re" doesn't have to mean "reply", it can also mean "regarding". Legolas - 04/10/2011 02:01:31 PM 613 Views
Re: Re: Gaps - 04/10/2011 02:06:58 PM 607 Views
Re: Re: Stephen - 04/10/2011 02:12:57 PM 575 Views
Re: Also. Gaps - 04/10/2011 02:08:15 PM 617 Views
you are still using it incorrectly. *NM* LadyLorraine - 04/10/2011 02:09:48 PM 567 Views
He's doing it on purpose though. Nate - 04/10/2011 03:31:39 PM 672 Views
Re: Yeah, it's just a shtick... Gaps - 04/10/2011 03:47:17 PM 572 Views
Those were the good old days. Nate - 04/10/2011 04:02:33 PM 604 Views
*NM* TaskmasterJack - 04/10/2011 10:02:30 PM 513 Views
I agree, it's driving me nuts *NM* ironclad - 04/10/2011 02:36:45 PM 498 Views
That's not quite right, actually. Nate - 04/10/2011 03:25:54 PM 521 Views
Disagree. *NM* TaskmasterJack - 04/10/2011 10:04:09 PM 528 Views
Considering that "CaptainHammer" is LDS, I'd rather doubt he's gay. Great Lord of Chaos - 04/10/2011 02:32:56 AM 577 Views
Re: Considering that "CaptainHammer" is LDS, I'd rather doubt he's gay. Urza - 04/10/2011 02:37:41 AM 597 Views
Heh. Oh, Ryan. Kronin al'Sulc - 04/10/2011 04:36:43 PM 691 Views
*sigh* to all of you above.... LadyLorraine - 04/10/2011 03:06:21 AM 604 Views
I thought that was "Do not talk about /b/"? *NM* Great Lord of Chaos - 04/10/2011 03:12:52 AM 576 Views
i don't know, but if THAT is the first rule... LadyLorraine - 04/10/2011 03:41:20 AM 550 Views
Please explain why you think we should consider you Christians. Tom - 03/10/2011 04:33:06 PM 1045 Views
you know, that does make me wonder though LadyLorraine - 03/10/2011 04:58:21 PM 943 Views
We're not as immovable as we are sometimes portrayed. Dannymac - 03/10/2011 05:27:17 PM 917 Views
"Even Christ didn't do that"? I can't agree. Legolas - 03/10/2011 09:00:34 PM 868 Views
I conceded your last point. Dannymac - 03/10/2011 10:14:28 PM 800 Views
Point of Anal Retentive Dissent: Joel - 04/10/2011 03:54:00 PM 830 Views
That concept is alien to the Christian theological understanding, however. Tom - 03/10/2011 10:18:55 PM 895 Views
I understand what both you and Danny are saying LadyLorraine - 04/10/2011 12:19:57 AM 864 Views
Oh, that's very simple Tom - 04/10/2011 04:02:24 AM 859 Views
I honestly don't know what it would take. Dannymac - 04/10/2011 07:41:55 AM 890 Views
thank you, both of you LadyLorraine - 04/10/2011 01:46:05 PM 871 Views
I love the Nicene Creed. It is such an excellent encapsulation. Rebekah - 03/10/2011 06:07:53 PM 946 Views
Agreed. Joel - 04/10/2011 04:44:49 PM 823 Views
The absolute best part about your post (plus the best thing about Mo's/LDS's) Jeordam - 03/10/2011 09:02:17 PM 884 Views
Glad you enjoyed it Tom - 03/10/2011 10:10:39 PM 990 Views
Though they can cause interesting changes in patterns. Dannymac - 03/10/2011 10:16:55 PM 882 Views
We believe that Jesus Christ is the Savior of all mankind, and the only way back to God. Gher - 04/10/2011 01:29:30 AM 972 Views
If you think the Book of Mormon was well-written, there is really little left to discuss. Tom - 04/10/2011 03:57:08 AM 1135 Views
I never said well-written, I said complex. Gher - 04/10/2011 07:04:24 AM 1000 Views
Ignore facts all you want to. Tom - 05/10/2011 01:07:35 AM 899 Views
Re: If you think the Book of Mormon was well-written, there is really little left to discuss. CaptainHammer - 04/10/2011 07:24:27 AM 1100 Views
Woah nelly. Ghavrel - 04/10/2011 10:04:33 AM 925 Views
I have to "Wow" as well... racist much? LadyLorraine - 04/10/2011 01:52:48 PM 843 Views
Re: I have to "Wow" as well... racist much? CaptainHammer - 04/10/2011 04:42:47 PM 922 Views
oh well that makes it all better... LadyLorraine - 04/10/2011 04:54:14 PM 945 Views
Exactly ironclad - 04/10/2011 06:00:54 PM 827 Views
Was the twin banging and the gay wedding the same event? Joel - 04/10/2011 06:36:03 PM 910 Views
Yikes. Even for religion, that's more than a little crazy. Nate - 04/10/2011 03:47:56 PM 919 Views
I don't think there's much of a difference in crazy as opposed to other more mainstream religions. Vivien - 04/10/2011 07:08:06 PM 894 Views
A difference exists if only in continued unabashed affirmation of a rather distasteful doctrine. Joel - 04/10/2011 11:06:51 PM 900 Views
Then why can't women be priests? Or enter the altar? The curse on Eve is very much in place. *NM* Aeryn - 05/10/2011 12:27:04 AM 498 Views
OK, within the Mormon context I can see that point. Joel - 05/10/2011 12:33:52 AM 809 Views
They can in quite a few denominations. *NM* Ghavrel - 05/10/2011 06:12:35 AM 554 Views
Whoops! You meant in LDS specifically. My mistake. *NM* Ghavrel - 05/10/2011 06:14:05 AM 516 Views
Right now I am not making an absolute statement but a relative one. Vivien - 05/10/2011 08:37:50 PM 703 Views
Yes, that is kind of the problem. Joel - 06/10/2011 12:13:27 AM 863 Views
Oh, you didn't know? Joe Smith said black people are cursed for following Satan. Tom - 05/10/2011 01:10:35 AM 868 Views
I guess this is a variation on Hams punishment; Ghav, at least should know better than to be shocked Joel - 04/10/2011 04:13:59 PM 819 Views
it's not that we're surprised because it's "novel" LadyLorraine - 04/10/2011 04:19:16 PM 862 Views
It is not NECESSARILY racist. Joel - 04/10/2011 04:39:33 PM 884 Views
Sure, except ... Nate - 04/10/2011 04:50:53 PM 902 Views
Well, the funny thing is Christian doctrine presupposes everyone, along with their ancestors... Joel - 04/10/2011 06:31:13 PM 766 Views
Yeah, circular logic is fun, isn't it? Tom - 05/10/2011 01:09:25 AM 843 Views
It it is nigh impossible to be a "non-Nicene Christian." Joel - 04/10/2011 03:12:06 PM 905 Views
I think we've had this discussion before. Gher - 06/10/2011 05:54:39 PM 894 Views
Arianism is a bad comparison for arguing LDS=Christian. Joel - 06/10/2011 11:45:36 PM 793 Views
Wikipedia confirms what I already thought: you're off base with the monophysitism. Legolas - 07/10/2011 12:06:40 AM 1141 Views
I had not realized it was that late, but used it only as an example of multitudinous controversies. Joel - 07/10/2011 01:03:56 AM 1269 Views
Monophysites, miaphysites, monothelites, etc. certainly accept the consubstantiality of God/Christ Larry - 07/10/2011 11:58:05 AM 824 Views
Virtually everyone has a more sound Christology than Mormons. Tom - 07/10/2011 06:45:45 PM 892 Views
Your ideas intrigue me and I would like to subscribe to your newsletter. Joel - 08/10/2011 05:30:38 PM 903 Views
I can see that with the Monothelites (can see their appeal, in fact,) but not Monophysites. Joel - 07/10/2011 09:43:27 PM 790 Views
Tempting as it is to prove Joel wrong (since he so frequently is), I need to take issue with this. Tom - 07/10/2011 06:59:13 PM 889 Views
I was just saying there were competing views. Gher - 07/10/2011 07:49:26 PM 1254 Views
Oh, there were definitely competing views, just not competing Christian views. Joel - 07/10/2011 09:26:22 PM 796 Views
That sounds really nice. Vivien - 04/10/2011 06:38:29 PM 858 Views
Why wait though? Joel - 05/10/2011 12:12:21 AM 1047 Views
So that Vivien can avoid reading and thinking about the stuff that you just wrote. *NM* Aeryn - 05/10/2011 12:28:23 AM 484 Views
Ack, not reading and thinking111 Joel - 05/10/2011 12:36:11 AM 880 Views
I really want an answer from a mormon. Vivien - 05/10/2011 08:48:49 PM 894 Views
Good luck with that; just because I can see no explanation save that I offered does not preclude one Joel - 06/10/2011 07:03:50 AM 831 Views
Yeah, that's what I thought. Gher - 06/10/2011 05:43:57 PM 779 Views
I'm satisfied by that explanation. Vivien - 06/10/2011 08:51:15 PM 1015 Views
Re: I'm satisfied by that explanation. Gher - 07/10/2011 07:45:29 PM 881 Views
Oh no you idn't... *waves finger and weaves head* everynametaken - 04/10/2011 03:53:07 AM 716 Views
....i don't know what you look like LadyLorraine - 04/10/2011 03:54:56 AM 857 Views
Shoot, my Mick Jagger strut is way better than my angry hispanic girl head/finger bob and weave. *NM* everynametaken - 05/10/2011 04:58:53 AM 618 Views
Took the words right out of my mouth, repeatedly. Joel - 04/10/2011 12:49:13 PM 1033 Views
Off-Topic Larry - 05/10/2011 01:14:16 AM 837 Views
Hmm Tom - 05/10/2011 02:03:13 AM 986 Views
True Larry - 05/10/2011 02:13:00 AM 785 Views
I think of Protestantism in terms similar to a Xerox copy. Tom - 05/10/2011 04:57:42 AM 900 Views
Maybe Xeroxes of abridged texts and dumbed down theology Larry - 06/10/2011 02:26:58 AM 1016 Views
I like that analogy - an echo chamber! *NM* Tom - 08/10/2011 10:44:04 PM 524 Views
Re: Off-Topic CaptainHammer - 05/10/2011 02:56:50 AM 1009 Views
Uhh... Larry - 05/10/2011 03:08:49 AM 827 Views
The people at the Nicene Council and the other councils were not prophets. CaptainHammer - 05/10/2011 04:59:50 AM 942 Views
And you know that because... why, again? Joel - 05/10/2011 07:13:53 AM 877 Views
Tough Crowd. Dannymac - 03/10/2011 04:44:31 PM 970 Views
No questions. Have a nice day. TaskmasterJack - 03/10/2011 11:40:58 PM 850 Views
Why don't they have anything approaching a formal theology? *NM* Dan - 04/10/2011 03:58:16 AM 611 Views
Re: Why don't they have anything approaching a formal theology? CaptainHammer - 04/10/2011 05:23:12 PM 938 Views
Danny is right, it is a pretty tough crowd, but better tough than weak and whitewashed. everynametaken - 04/10/2011 04:02:16 AM 849 Views
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