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Please explain why you think we should consider you Christians. Tom Send a noteboard - 03/10/2011 04:33:06 PM
I could point out some of the countless problems that virtually everyone else has with your faith (the most notable being Joe Smith making up fake gold plates that he said were given to him by God in a language only he could read, making up entire civilizations that never existed and whose existence cannot be proven by one scrap of evidence, pretending to be able to translate Egyptian hieroglyphs and so making a fake "Book of Moses" out of a standard funerary text, rewriting your holy text on a nearly yearly basis to whitewash it - in some cases literally, as in the way black people were accepted in the 1970s - and make it acceptable to your changing ideas, silly ideas like the Adam-God doctrine, and a whole host of other foolishness).

However, let's just take a very simple approach and look at the Nicene Creed, the fundamental affirmation that separates Christians from people who talk about Jesus (like Jehovah's Witnesses). The Creed says (with questions from me interspersed throughout):

We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is seen and unseen.

Can you say this? Do you truly believe in ONE GOD? Did ONE GOD create all that is and ever was? If not, you are not Christians (or Jews or Muslims, for that matter).

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, one in Being with the Father. Through him all things were made.

Do you believe that Jesus Christ is GOD, that he is the SAME GOD as God the Father, that he is one in Being with the Father and that he was begotten, not made? That is to say, that he was not created by God the Father, that he is eternally existent (as the Gospel of John states: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" - this is a direct reference to Christ)? If you do not believe that Christ is God, that He is identical to God the Father and that he is eternally existent, you are not a Christian.

For us men and for our salvation He came down from heaven. By the power of the Holy Spirit He was born of the Virgin Mary, and became man. For our sake He was crucified under Pontius Pilate, He suffered, died, and was buried. On the third day He rose again in fulfillment of the Scriptures. He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.

To be Christian is to accept the miracle of the Incarnation, the miracle of the passion and death and the miracle of the Resurrection of Christ. Key to this acceptance is the concept that Christ has saved us by suffering and dying for us, and that this salvation is a gift that God has bestowed upon people. Though I loath to use Protestant terminology, we have been saved by the grace of God, not by our works.

He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and His kingdom will have no end.

Note that implicit in this is the statement that Christ appeared once, and only once, on this Earth, and not to sci-fi white Indians in a North America that had all sorts of technology that real Native Americans never had.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Giver of Life, who proceeds from the Father [Catholics add: and the Son]. With the Father and the Son He is worshiped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets.

The Holy Spirit is the third and crucial part of the Trinity of God. It is the expression of God within us and around us. The statement about "the Prophets" should be clarified in the context of the New Testament, which explicitly says that the gift of prophecy has been made unnecessary because Christ is better than, and in place of, any prophets. This is a fundamental dispute between Christians and Muslims because Muhammad is explicitly understood to be a "false prophet". Beware of any angels that purport to speak to you, the Bible says. Either you believe the Bible and Joe Smith was a fraud or agent of evil powers, or you disregard the Bible and are not Christian.

We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

One baptism, and not performed after death.

Christianity existed in this framework for over 1800 years until a dim-witted con man who made his money "divining" with a dowsing rod and a stupid rock claimed to have spoken to angels and sought to completely change virtually every statement made in the fundamental Christian profession of faith.

So please tell me, why should any Christian consider you to be Christian? Christians can accept you as fellow human beings and honest, decent people, but then again they can do that with anyone from any religion. Why should anyone consider you to be Christian?

Political correctness is the pettiest form of casuistry.

ἡ δὲ κἀκ τριῶν τρυπημάτων ἐργαζομένη ἐνεκάλει τῇ φύσει, δυσφορουμένη, ὅτι δὴ μὴ καὶ τοὺς τιτθοὺς αὐτῇ εὐρύτερον ἢ νῦν εἰσι τρυπώη, ὅπως καὶ ἄλλην ἐνταῦθα μίξιν ἐπιτεχνᾶσθαι δυνατὴ εἴη. – Procopius

Ummaka qinnassa nīk!

*MySmiley*
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Mormons - 03/10/2011 05:46:10 AM 2294 Views
Questions. - 03/10/2011 11:13:25 AM 1056 Views
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....did we just get door-to-door'd...ONLINE?!?! *NM* - 03/10/2011 11:34:19 AM 550 Views
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Do you ever giggle at the name "Moroni?" - 03/10/2011 11:39:55 AM 952 Views
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Better a faggot than a fuckwad. Cheers fuckwad! *NM* - 04/10/2011 01:27:20 AM 557 Views
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Goodness.. - 04/10/2011 03:20:30 AM 606 Views
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I'm not sure which would be sadder... - 04/10/2011 11:32:55 AM 706 Views
*NM* - 04/10/2011 12:19:01 PM 531 Views
Re: You flatter me. *NM* - 04/10/2011 01:31:01 PM 553 Views
OK, you need to delete the "Re:" You're using it incorrectly - 04/10/2011 01:55:53 PM 582 Views
"Re" doesn't have to mean "reply", it can also mean "regarding". - 04/10/2011 02:01:31 PM 613 Views
Re: Re: - 04/10/2011 02:06:58 PM 607 Views
Re: Re: - 04/10/2011 02:12:57 PM 575 Views
Re: Also. - 04/10/2011 02:08:15 PM 617 Views
you are still using it incorrectly. *NM* - 04/10/2011 02:09:48 PM 567 Views
He's doing it on purpose though. - 04/10/2011 03:31:39 PM 672 Views
Re: Yeah, it's just a shtick... - 04/10/2011 03:47:17 PM 572 Views
Those were the good old days. - 04/10/2011 04:02:33 PM 604 Views
*NM* - 04/10/2011 10:02:30 PM 513 Views
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Considering that "CaptainHammer" is LDS, I'd rather doubt he's gay. - 04/10/2011 02:32:56 AM 577 Views
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*sigh* to all of you above.... - 04/10/2011 03:06:21 AM 604 Views
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i don't know, but if THAT is the first rule... - 04/10/2011 03:41:20 AM 550 Views
Please explain why you think we should consider you Christians. - 03/10/2011 04:33:06 PM 1045 Views
you know, that does make me wonder though - 03/10/2011 04:58:21 PM 943 Views
We're not as immovable as we are sometimes portrayed. - 03/10/2011 05:27:17 PM 916 Views
"Even Christ didn't do that"? I can't agree. - 03/10/2011 09:00:34 PM 868 Views
I conceded your last point. - 03/10/2011 10:14:28 PM 799 Views
Point of Anal Retentive Dissent: - 04/10/2011 03:54:00 PM 830 Views
That concept is alien to the Christian theological understanding, however. - 03/10/2011 10:18:55 PM 895 Views
I understand what both you and Danny are saying - 04/10/2011 12:19:57 AM 864 Views
Oh, that's very simple - 04/10/2011 04:02:24 AM 859 Views
I honestly don't know what it would take. - 04/10/2011 07:41:55 AM 890 Views
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I love the Nicene Creed. It is such an excellent encapsulation. - 03/10/2011 06:07:53 PM 946 Views
Agreed. - 04/10/2011 04:44:49 PM 823 Views
The absolute best part about your post (plus the best thing about Mo's/LDS's) - 03/10/2011 09:02:17 PM 884 Views
Glad you enjoyed it - 03/10/2011 10:10:39 PM 990 Views
Though they can cause interesting changes in patterns. - 03/10/2011 10:16:55 PM 882 Views
We believe that Jesus Christ is the Savior of all mankind, and the only way back to God. - 04/10/2011 01:29:30 AM 972 Views
If you think the Book of Mormon was well-written, there is really little left to discuss. - 04/10/2011 03:57:08 AM 1135 Views
I never said well-written, I said complex. - 04/10/2011 07:04:24 AM 1000 Views
Ignore facts all you want to. - 05/10/2011 01:07:35 AM 899 Views
Re: If you think the Book of Mormon was well-written, there is really little left to discuss. - 04/10/2011 07:24:27 AM 1099 Views
Woah nelly. - 04/10/2011 10:04:33 AM 924 Views
I have to "Wow" as well... racist much? - 04/10/2011 01:52:48 PM 843 Views
Re: I have to "Wow" as well... racist much? - 04/10/2011 04:42:47 PM 922 Views
oh well that makes it all better... - 04/10/2011 04:54:14 PM 945 Views
Exactly - 04/10/2011 06:00:54 PM 827 Views
Was the twin banging and the gay wedding the same event? - 04/10/2011 06:36:03 PM 910 Views
I guess this is a variation on Hams punishment; Ghav, at least should know better than to be shocked - 04/10/2011 04:13:59 PM 819 Views
it's not that we're surprised because it's "novel" - 04/10/2011 04:19:16 PM 862 Views
It is not NECESSARILY racist. - 04/10/2011 04:39:33 PM 884 Views
Sure, except ... - 04/10/2011 04:50:53 PM 902 Views
Yeah, circular logic is fun, isn't it? - 05/10/2011 01:09:25 AM 842 Views
That sounds really nice. - 04/10/2011 06:38:29 PM 858 Views
Why wait though? - 05/10/2011 12:12:21 AM 1047 Views
So that Vivien can avoid reading and thinking about the stuff that you just wrote. *NM* - 05/10/2011 12:28:23 AM 484 Views
Ack, not reading and thinking111 - 05/10/2011 12:36:11 AM 880 Views
Yeah, that's what I thought. - 06/10/2011 05:43:57 PM 779 Views
I'm satisfied by that explanation. - 06/10/2011 08:51:15 PM 1015 Views
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Oh no you idn't... *waves finger and weaves head* - 04/10/2011 03:53:07 AM 716 Views
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Took the words right out of my mouth, repeatedly. - 04/10/2011 12:49:13 PM 1033 Views
Off-Topic - 05/10/2011 01:14:16 AM 837 Views
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True - 05/10/2011 02:13:00 AM 785 Views
I think of Protestantism in terms similar to a Xerox copy. - 05/10/2011 04:57:42 AM 900 Views
Maybe Xeroxes of abridged texts and dumbed down theology - 06/10/2011 02:26:58 AM 1016 Views
I like that analogy - an echo chamber! *NM* - 08/10/2011 10:44:04 PM 524 Views
Re: Off-Topic - 05/10/2011 02:56:50 AM 1009 Views
Uhh... - 05/10/2011 03:08:49 AM 827 Views
The people at the Nicene Council and the other councils were not prophets. - 05/10/2011 04:59:50 AM 942 Views
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Tough Crowd. - 03/10/2011 04:44:31 PM 970 Views
No questions. Have a nice day. - 03/10/2011 11:40:58 PM 850 Views
Why don't they have anything approaching a formal theology? *NM* - 04/10/2011 03:58:16 AM 611 Views
Re: Why don't they have anything approaching a formal theology? - 04/10/2011 05:23:12 PM 938 Views

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