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Re: Yet, regrettably, not done misusing it. Dreaded Anomaly Send a noteboard - 23/02/2012 10:59:32 PM
Yes, I am selecting only "greater than," because "equal to" is no more a possibility than "less than." Contraception CANNOT DISCOURAGE sexual activity, and significantly reduces the chance of something that deters sexual activity so much it motivates entire national policies aimed at reducing sex. If contraception even marginally encourages even one person to have sex, it encourages overall sexual activity, because it cannot deter anyone. The only debate left is HOW MUCH greater than zero its effect on sexual activity is. Common sense, which definitely includes experience with humans, dictates that, but logic is sufficient. Nothing suggests contraception deters sex, nor that everyone with access to it discounts it as a factor in sexual activity (in practice, for various reasons, many otherwise consenting adults refuse sex without a condom.) Therefore, contraception must encourage sex, to an undetermined degree.


Does refusing sex without a condom not count as the existence/availability of contraception deterring sex? If there were no condoms, some of those people might be more willing to take the risk because of the lack of alternatives.

In any case, it seems like this part of the discussion is going around in circles at this point. You seem intent on making simplistic statements about the complexities of human behavior and responses. My point is that there does not appear to be research backing such statements with any degree of strength.

Personally, I sure hope that the availability of birth control does encourage sex, because I'm not a repressed Puritan. I just haven't seen evidence for that.

"A primary effect." If we prefer to use "primary" to literally mean "first," then preventing implantation is a principle effect.


My impression is that the only people who think of that as a principle effect are the ones who are overly concerned with it, i.e. "pro-lifers." A quick check of WebMD: http://www.webmd.com/sex/birth-control/intrauterine-device-iud-for-birth-control

How it works

Both types of IUD prevent fertilization of the egg by damaging or killing sperm. The IUD also affects the uterine lining (where a fertilized egg would implant and grow).

Hormonal IUD. This IUD prevents fertilization by damaging or killing sperm and making the mucus in the cervix thick and sticky, so sperm can't get through to the uterus. It also keeps the lining of the uterus (endometrium) from growing very thick.3 This makes the lining a poor place for a fertilized egg to implant and grow. The hormones in this IUD also reduce menstrual bleeding and cramping.
Copper IUD. Copper is toxic to sperm. It makes the uterus and fallopian tubes produce fluid that kills sperm. This fluid contains white blood cells, copper ions, enzymes, and prostaglandins.3


The focus is on preventing fertilization, not implantation.

The movement is very large, and almost inevitably diverse as a result. Very few people are completely apathetic about abortion; nearly everyone has at least some opinion one way or the other, and since the federal late term abortion law increased awareness in the late '90s polling has never shown less than 40% support for either side. Even at the lowest pro life ebb in Gallup polling, which was also at the lowest US population level in that polling, support was at 33% of 260 million, or 86 million Americans. I doubt there are 86 million anti-contraception Americans NOW, but polling says there are about TWICE that many pro lifers. You would be hard pressed to get all 160 million of them to agree even on what "pro life" means (nearly twice as many support restricted abortion as oppose/support it under ALL circumstances) let alone how they feel about contraception. I think I linked this at some earlier point, but just to be sure:

http://www.gallup.com/poll/118399/more-americans-pro-life-than-pro-choice-first-time.aspx

"The movement" reads more as a collective than qualified statement. I am unconvinced even a majority of pro lifers are anti-contraception, and strongly doubt most of them are, though many must be since there are around 160 million total.


I have explicitly explained my actual usage of "the movement." if you want to keep interpreting it to mean every person who identifies as "pro-life", that is not my responsibility.

Also, time to update your polling data. Pro-choice now 49%, "pro-life" now 45%: http://www.gallup.com/poll/147734/americans-split-along-pro-choice-pro-life-lines.aspx

There are a lot of fluctuations in these numbers over the years. Any single data point is not worth much.

I guess linking Dave Lipman was asking for that, but my is a movements leadership, particularly a large movements, does not always fully reflect all member views. I would not call Paul Ryan "ineffective;" last I checked, the leadership of BOTH major parties hope he will be VERY effective this November. ;)

In the main, I would argue pro-contraception pro lifers have a tremendous effect on the movement through votes, activists and funding. Various pundits claim that reality drove Obamas tactical decision to push for and then retreat on requiring Catholic hospitals and schools fund employee contraception. Personally, I still feel he can gain no sympathy fighting for something unless/until he actually FIGHTS for it, but the basic logic is valid. Barring large systemic polling errors, we must either accept that a near majority of America opposes contraception, or reject the premise most pro lifers do. They may not be a silent majority, but neither are they a trivially small minority.


What the hell does Paul Ryan have to do with anything? He's anti-abortion and anti-contraception.

I have little sympathy for people who choose to associate themselves with a movement which does not represent their views, and then complain when others also associate them with it.

As I have said before, a silent majority may exist, but if it does nothing to curb the failures of the movement and push it in the right direction, its existence matters little.

The notion the movement and its members are unworthy of respect is precisely the problem. Ethically, that people deserve respect even when they disagree with us, even for fallacious reasons, is a cornerstone of liberalism, as in Voltaires statement that "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." Pragmatically, if 51% of America identifies with one position, respecting them encourages them to respect us enough not to marginalize our minority. Politically, denying them respect because of their views and/or the basis on which those views are held only supports pro life claims pro choice advocates cheerfully devalue and then eliminate everyone whose existence is unwelcome.


No, that's not what Voltaire's statement means. Freedom of speech is not freedom from criticism, and ideas without merit still do not deserve respect. The "pro-life" movement has the right to say whatever it wants, but it does not have the right to be taken seriously.

People outside the movement by definition disagree with it, but the issue has never been and will never be decided on the basis of whether/when a majority believes a fetus is or is not an entity. The "critical masses" are the majority that believes a fetus an entity at various points prior to the third trimester, the critical issue how they believe that should be legally addressed. Beginning from the position they also oppose contraception due to provincial puritanical views of sex and therefore do not merit respect is a poor approach. It can only alienate them, and there is no better example of how counterproductive such alienation is than the support the pro choice position got when pro lifers started throwing around the phrase "baby-killer." Such an approach seems like it should be effective, but it backfires because the vast majority of people recognize it as specious slander against not only their friends, family and neighbors, but often against themselves.


If the supposed silent majority of "pro-life" people who support contraception are upset when the movement gets (correctly) painted as being more focused on enforcing Puritanical sexual mores, then they should speak up about their views and change that impression.
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Susan G. Komen cuts funds to Planned Parenthood. (with updated edit) nossy - 02/02/2012 04:32:27 PM 2383 Views
The most annoying part is in the sixth paragraph- abortions are only a small part of their thing beetnemesis - 02/02/2012 05:08:07 PM 1265 Views
I agree. nossy - 02/02/2012 05:20:17 PM 1153 Views
I can understand it though. Sareitha Sedai - 02/02/2012 05:45:55 PM 1231 Views
I can too, it just isn't for me. nossy - 02/02/2012 05:58:33 PM 1156 Views
Actually, there are longer-acting forms of birth control than the pill. Dreaded Anomaly - 03/02/2012 12:37:42 AM 1155 Views
I do think that preventing abortions is their primary goal. Sareitha Sedai - 03/02/2012 01:08:05 AM 1110 Views
If they don't see that link, it's because they haven't looked. Dreaded Anomaly - 03/02/2012 02:42:42 AM 1205 Views
That is a little unfair. Joel - 03/02/2012 12:48:46 PM 1447 Views
Won't someone please think of the children?! Dreaded Anomaly - 04/02/2012 05:03:27 AM 1193 Views
I think you're leaving out some important points. nossy - 04/02/2012 03:40:48 PM 1126 Views
Ah, the good ol' silent majority. Dreaded Anomaly - 04/02/2012 07:32:29 PM 1114 Views
So which moron is feeding you this crap? Ray - 04/02/2012 10:27:15 PM 1168 Views
A zygote isn't a person, because it doesn't have a brain. Dreaded Anomaly - 05/02/2012 12:33:29 AM 1133 Views
It worries me when we think alike.... Joel - 05/02/2012 01:22:35 PM 1199 Views
Brain waves at 8 weeks are a myth. Dreaded Anomaly - 05/02/2012 08:46:06 PM 1284 Views
"brain function... appears to be reliably present in the fetus at about eight weeks' gestation." Joel - 05/02/2012 10:42:35 PM 1203 Views
Oh please. Dreaded Anomaly - 05/02/2012 11:13:50 PM 1149 Views
Re: Oh please yourself. Joel - 06/02/2012 09:15:26 PM 1030 Views
Quite a telling reply. Dreaded Anomaly - 07/02/2012 04:38:20 AM 1121 Views
Re: I quite agree. Joel - 08/02/2012 06:03:23 PM 1320 Views
You're taking an issue of objective facts and treating it like a day of playground gossip. Dreaded Anomaly - 09/02/2012 03:47:06 AM 1126 Views
No, your source, in which there is very little that is objective, did that for me. Joel - 11/02/2012 02:59:45 AM 1190 Views
I see you have continued to provide no factual arguments. Dreaded Anomaly - 14/02/2012 04:53:28 AM 1455 Views
I presented factual rebuttals. Joel - 19/02/2012 01:56:45 AM 1225 Views
You continue to miss the point. Dreaded Anomaly - 23/02/2012 10:22:24 PM 1313 Views
No, I got the point: You expect me to accept a heavily biased, partisan and combative "source." Joel - 07/03/2012 01:47:37 AM 1227 Views
The claim of brain waves at 8 weeks is still unsupported by evidence, i.e. a myth. Dreaded Anomaly - 15/03/2012 09:16:14 PM 1293 Views
Well, yes. nossy - 04/02/2012 11:14:47 PM 1209 Views
A silent majority may as well not exist, if it has no tangible effects. Dreaded Anomaly - 05/02/2012 12:54:34 AM 1144 Views
You ignoring it is not the same thing as it having no tangible effect. nossy - 05/02/2012 02:11:36 AM 1250 Views
Ignoring what? You haven't shown me anything solid. Dreaded Anomaly - 05/02/2012 05:25:23 AM 1130 Views
It's ok, we're done. *NM* nossy - 05/02/2012 09:29:05 AM 677 Views
Since few people oppose ADULT contraception access, that might be wise in this case. Joel - 04/02/2012 08:25:49 PM 1292 Views
Re: Since few people oppose ADULT contraception access, that might be wise in this case. Dreaded Anomaly - 05/02/2012 02:11:28 AM 1135 Views
If you are arguing most sex ed opponents are naïve/ignorant, I agree. Joel - 05/02/2012 08:42:17 AM 985 Views
Re: If you are arguing most sex ed opponents are naïve/ignorant, I agree. Dreaded Anomaly - 05/02/2012 10:04:59 PM 1171 Views
Re: If you are arguing most sex ed opponents are naïve/ignorant, I agree. Joel - 06/02/2012 08:57:38 PM 1112 Views
I'm done discussing my use of the term "oppression." The Tim Ryan stuff is interesting, though. Dreaded Anomaly - 07/02/2012 05:37:05 AM 1244 Views
Yet, regrettably, not done misusing it. Joel - 08/02/2012 06:01:32 PM 1341 Views
Re: Yet, regrettably, not done misusing it. Dreaded Anomaly - 09/02/2012 05:30:58 AM 1185 Views
Re: Yet, regrettably, not done misusing it. Joel - 11/02/2012 02:58:00 AM 1203 Views
Re: Yet, regrettably, not done misusing it. Dreaded Anomaly - 14/02/2012 04:29:08 AM 1305 Views
Re: Yet, regrettably, not done misusing it. Joel - 19/02/2012 01:54:30 AM 1181 Views
Re: Yet, regrettably, not done misusing it. Dreaded Anomaly - 23/02/2012 10:59:32 PM 1513 Views
Re: Yet, regrettably, not done misusing it. Joel - 07/03/2012 01:47:44 AM 1169 Views
Re: Yet, regrettably, not done misusing it. Dreaded Anomaly - 15/03/2012 10:27:23 PM 1430 Views
There are problems with the implants LadyLorraine - 03/02/2012 01:42:55 AM 1170 Views
Any form of birth control doesn't work for everyone, though. Dreaded Anomaly - 03/02/2012 02:37:00 AM 1184 Views
Oh yes, I totally agree! My point is just that there are some barriers to handing out implants *NM* LadyLorraine - 03/02/2012 03:38:05 AM 546 Views
You have a talent for understatement. Joel - 03/02/2012 01:08:40 PM 1170 Views
What on earth does that have to do with anything? Cannoli - 03/02/2012 01:47:42 AM 1104 Views
I was actually kinda with you until you closed with that anathema I condemned in my response to rt. Joel - 03/02/2012 01:39:06 PM 1140 Views
I agree that they have made Beast Cancer a cult but splitting with PP is just smart Ray - 02/02/2012 05:39:49 PM 1316 Views
I agree. Sareitha Sedai - 02/02/2012 06:00:17 PM 1096 Views
yes she is going to have to piss off one group or the other Ray - 02/02/2012 06:12:31 PM 1151 Views
Right nossy - 02/02/2012 06:24:14 PM 1210 Views
it is a judgment call and I hope her decision is based on more than my guesses Ray - 02/02/2012 06:53:50 PM 1077 Views
Do you see a way Komen could have avoided pissing off one side? Sareitha Sedai - 02/02/2012 06:55:36 PM 1144 Views
No, I don't. I don't believe I said that? nossy - 02/02/2012 07:53:50 PM 1062 Views
You didn't; I inferred it from the way you phrased that ("if she HAS to..."). Sorry. Sareitha Sedai - 02/02/2012 08:06:11 PM 1145 Views
I know I'm not always clear. nossy - 02/02/2012 08:32:47 PM 1138 Views
Just curious... Narg - 02/02/2012 10:07:49 PM 1126 Views
Not at all. nossy - 02/02/2012 10:24:19 PM 1192 Views
Not at all? Narg - 02/02/2012 10:32:31 PM 1078 Views
No. nossy - 02/02/2012 10:47:04 PM 1020 Views
My argument is based on my belief that the pro-choice women are more dedicated to women's causes Ray - 02/02/2012 11:17:24 PM 1130 Views
Re: My argument is based on my belief that the pro-choice women are more dedicated to women's causes nossy - 03/02/2012 12:08:01 AM 1122 Views
wow that may be the worst advice I had in weeks Ray - 03/02/2012 12:13:18 AM 1102 Views
Ooor, the best. nossy - 03/02/2012 12:25:56 AM 1083 Views
ok now you are just being mean *NM* Ray - 03/02/2012 12:46:12 AM 661 Views
The thread was going too well - I thought we needed the meanness. *NM* nossy - 03/02/2012 11:30:39 AM 613 Views
rabble rouser *NM* Ray - 04/02/2012 04:24:01 AM 675 Views
I misread this at first Sareitha Sedai - 03/02/2012 12:51:44 AM 1145 Views
not to mention codeine seems to make me double post Ray - 02/02/2012 11:17:26 PM 2181 Views
I'm not so sure I agree. Or not completely. nossy - 02/02/2012 06:14:11 PM 1067 Views
I don't diagree with the way you see it Ray - 02/02/2012 06:39:41 PM 1142 Views
More inevitable than anything, considering who started Komen. Joel - 02/02/2012 10:19:34 PM 1079 Views
Never having heard of any of those except PP, my opinion may not be the most relevant... Legolas - 02/02/2012 08:32:48 PM 1196 Views
You don't know stuff. nossy - 02/02/2012 08:43:38 PM 1173 Views
I know the stuff that matters. Legolas - 02/02/2012 09:55:08 PM 1067 Views
That's true. nossy - 02/02/2012 10:34:32 PM 1170 Views
they may also be a afraid that PP will go the way of ACORN Ray - 02/02/2012 11:04:16 PM 1219 Views
"Accused" of = unfounded slander. Aeryn - 03/02/2012 12:13:30 AM 1263 Views
did you notice I called tactic disgusting? That doesn't mean it isn't effective Ray - 03/02/2012 12:45:10 AM 1167 Views
The investigation by Congress is well-known to be specious. It's the House GOP abusing their power. *NM* Dreaded Anomaly - 03/02/2012 12:41:58 AM 710 Views
This is so foreign a debate for me Lews_TherinThelamon - 02/02/2012 10:16:15 PM 1195 Views
Must be nice. *NM* nossy - 03/02/2012 12:26:49 AM 711 Views
Re: stuff rebelaessedai - 03/02/2012 09:18:53 AM 1071 Views
I'm sorry, but what're we talking about when we're talking about "cancer" LadyLorraine - 03/02/2012 12:49:34 PM 1127 Views
Obviously not adenocarcinoma, no. rebelaessedai - 04/02/2012 07:36:06 AM 1203 Views
I"m not that fussed. I'm just generally leary of research that has results like that LadyLorraine - 04/02/2012 08:35:04 PM 1070 Views
Fair enough. rebelaessedai - 04/02/2012 10:17:31 PM 1207 Views
Once I looked up Nancy Brinker at Wikipedia it all made sense. Joel - 02/02/2012 10:54:34 PM 1174 Views
Re: Once I looked up Nancy Brinker at Wikipedia it all made sense. nossy - 02/02/2012 11:03:32 PM 1075 Views
After a little more digging I have to say you are probably right. Joel - 03/02/2012 02:23:14 AM 1014 Views
They restored funding incidentally Isaac - 03/02/2012 05:43:47 PM 1084 Views
Unless I've missed it nossy - 03/02/2012 05:56:15 PM 1150 Views
You must have missed it then Isaac - 03/02/2012 07:07:13 PM 1074 Views
If you're referring to Cannoli nossy - 03/02/2012 07:19:25 PM 1243 Views
Multiple was not an accidental choice of words Isaac - 03/02/2012 11:46:30 PM 1127 Views
Then I agree that maybe this is not the thread for you. nossy - 04/02/2012 12:41:42 AM 1151 Views
Re: Then I agree that maybe this is not the thread for you. Isaac - 04/02/2012 01:53:25 AM 1331 Views
Well, I'll try again for both of us. nossy - 04/02/2012 02:56:42 PM 1181 Views
Re: Well, I'll try again for both of us. Isaac - 04/02/2012 07:40:25 PM 1130 Views
well at least there will not be any doubt about this being a political decision random thoughts - 03/02/2012 06:24:14 PM 1263 Views
Re: well at least there will not be any doubt about this being a political decision Isaac - 03/02/2012 06:29:34 PM 1041 Views
I think that ship sailed long ago. Joel - 03/02/2012 08:45:13 PM 1078 Views
Truth Dannymac - 04/02/2012 02:07:20 AM 1170 Views
I do wonder a bit which lawmakers Fox thinks "pressured" Komen. Joel - 03/02/2012 08:29:50 PM 1070 Views
Beyond the 26 senators, I'd imagine rumor of the more reliable sort Isaac - 03/02/2012 08:46:31 PM 1140 Views
Well, if they wrote AS senators rather than friends of Nancy Brinker, that probably qualifies. Joel - 03/02/2012 10:24:11 PM 1192 Views
Judge for yourself Isaac - 04/02/2012 12:01:06 AM 1201 Views
Well, a public letter makes whether they signed it "Sen. so-and-so" irrelevant: It is political. Joel - 04/02/2012 04:07:20 PM 1116 Views
are you trying to disprove the study you posted? random thoughts - 03/02/2012 09:20:12 PM 1215 Views
To me, it depends on the nature of the contact, which I have not dug enough to discover. Joel - 03/02/2012 10:43:45 PM 1087 Views
you admit you have no incite into what happened Ray - 04/02/2012 04:27:17 AM 1150 Views
Actually, it looks like Komens new VP (and former GOP GA gubernatorial candidate) had the incite. Joel - 04/02/2012 04:24:14 PM 1170 Views
educated guess don't work when you are tinfoil hat wearing kool-aid drinker Ray - 04/02/2012 09:33:49 PM 1090 Views
Dude. nossy - 04/02/2012 11:20:49 PM 994 Views
Yo mama? Joel - 05/02/2012 05:32:11 AM 1194 Views
whhhhhhyyyyyy nossy - 04/02/2012 11:23:58 PM 1166 Views
Why would I not think that? Joel - 05/02/2012 05:46:15 AM 1020 Views
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