Active Users:385 Time:02/03/2026 07:56:10 PM
No, I got the point: You expect me to accept a heavily biased, partisan and combative "source." Joel Send a noteboard - 07/03/2012 01:47:37 AM
Not gonna happen; she has no credentials and plays fast and loose, not to mention self-servingly, with the facts, data and conclusions, so she has no credibility.
I have neither the energy nor the desire to repeat the same pointless conversation over and over again, as you merely restate your tangential remarks with each post.

This is the situation: the "pro-life" movement often makes claims that fetuses have "brain waves" at 8 weeks (or earlier). "Brain wave", as we have both noted, is not a technical term. That means we have to consider what the people making the statement are implying by their specific use of the term in order to judge the statement accurately.

There is the rub; not only do none of the doctors your source cite use the term "brain waves," but virtually all of them are careful NOT to take a specific position on what the various detected first trimester brain activity means. It is misinterpreting (at best) or falsifying (at worst) the facts to claim they state first trimester fetal EEGs indicate living beings; it is no less so to claim they state such EEGs indicate NON-beings. The evidence is inconclusive, and one of the sources referenced in your source as much as says that; that your source then proceeds to attack both not only his conclusions but his credibility demonstrates nothing but her own bias.

The "pro-life" movement has only one motivation to make such a statement: they think that it supports their view that fetuses are people. The relevant question, then, is whether or not fetuses have the same kind of "brain waves," or in general electric activity read by EEG, that people with functioning brains have. A trace of the sources cited for this claim shows no evidence in support of such a similarity, and actually some evidence against it.

When we begin debating whether an EEG at one stage of development is on par with an EEG at another stage we increasingly move from matters of fact to those of opinion. In general, I still tend to credit investigators with doctorates in medicine, law or (in Dr. Goldenrings case) BOTH over a policy advocate with no formal education on the matter who consults (and derides) their research second hand. Particularly when she falsely claims them to take a position they do not just because their conclusions do not support her position. When the medical and legal scholar with decades of practice, study and research says, "inconclusive," but the partisan advocate with none of those things says, "conclusive; he just mistated his data because he is pro-life," it is obvious which is credible.

That is the end of it. A claim was made; the claim, in its intended meaning, is probably false based just on the sources which supposedly supported it. Further, more direct research (such as the paper I originally linked) into fetal brain development shows that the higher brain functions have not developed, making the claim even more obviously false.

The partisan pro-lifer claim first trimester fetuses are beings with the brainwaves of same is currently unverifiable; whether it is false is therefore unknowable. However, the claim, and thus the burden of proving it, is theirs; the evidence is inconclusive, so they have not met that burden and their claim is unsubstantiated. I have no argument there, but any counterclaim faces the same insurmountable challenges.

Your sources problem lies there, because she addresses that issue by attacking the doctors' conclusion their studies ALLOW no conclusion. That does not validate the blank check she wishes written, so it is not enough to refute pro-lifer claims first trimester fetal EEGs demonstrate a being: She seeks to affirm the position those EEGs demonstrate a NON-being, and consequently maligns all doctors who state otherwise. Had she restricted herself to refuting her partisans on the other side I would have no argument; my issue is that her agenda obliged her to falsely malign doctors as well, and that she overreached herself in the process.

If my higher brain functions were destroyed, then my self/personality/mind/etc. would be gone. What remained (body, whatever was left of the lower brain) would not be a person.

That is a large, dubious, contentious and SEPARATE debate (just ask Michael Schiavo and his former in-laws.)
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Susan G. Komen cuts funds to Planned Parenthood. (with updated edit) - 02/02/2012 04:32:27 PM 2493 Views
The most annoying part is in the sixth paragraph- abortions are only a small part of their thing - 02/02/2012 05:08:07 PM 1363 Views
I agree. - 02/02/2012 05:20:17 PM 1246 Views
I can understand it though. - 02/02/2012 05:45:55 PM 1326 Views
I can too, it just isn't for me. - 02/02/2012 05:58:33 PM 1251 Views
Actually, there are longer-acting forms of birth control than the pill. - 03/02/2012 12:37:42 AM 1239 Views
I do think that preventing abortions is their primary goal. - 03/02/2012 01:08:05 AM 1199 Views
If they don't see that link, it's because they haven't looked. - 03/02/2012 02:42:42 AM 1317 Views
That is a little unfair. - 03/02/2012 12:48:46 PM 1557 Views
Won't someone please think of the children?! - 04/02/2012 05:03:27 AM 1292 Views
I think you're leaving out some important points. - 04/02/2012 03:40:48 PM 1206 Views
Ah, the good ol' silent majority. - 04/02/2012 07:32:29 PM 1220 Views
So which moron is feeding you this crap? - 04/02/2012 10:27:15 PM 1251 Views
A zygote isn't a person, because it doesn't have a brain. - 05/02/2012 12:33:29 AM 1230 Views
It worries me when we think alike.... - 05/02/2012 01:22:35 PM 1307 Views
Brain waves at 8 weeks are a myth. - 05/02/2012 08:46:06 PM 1383 Views
"brain function... appears to be reliably present in the fetus at about eight weeks' gestation." - 05/02/2012 10:42:35 PM 1299 Views
Oh please. - 05/02/2012 11:13:50 PM 1248 Views
Re: Oh please yourself. - 06/02/2012 09:15:26 PM 1110 Views
Quite a telling reply. - 07/02/2012 04:38:20 AM 1221 Views
Re: I quite agree. - 08/02/2012 06:03:23 PM 1413 Views
You're taking an issue of objective facts and treating it like a day of playground gossip. - 09/02/2012 03:47:06 AM 1238 Views
No, your source, in which there is very little that is objective, did that for me. - 11/02/2012 02:59:45 AM 1283 Views
I see you have continued to provide no factual arguments. - 14/02/2012 04:53:28 AM 1560 Views
I presented factual rebuttals. - 19/02/2012 01:56:45 AM 1315 Views
You continue to miss the point. - 23/02/2012 10:22:24 PM 1399 Views
No, I got the point: You expect me to accept a heavily biased, partisan and combative "source." - 07/03/2012 01:47:37 AM 1332 Views
Well, yes. - 04/02/2012 11:14:47 PM 1347 Views
A silent majority may as well not exist, if it has no tangible effects. - 05/02/2012 12:54:34 AM 1218 Views
You ignoring it is not the same thing as it having no tangible effect. - 05/02/2012 02:11:36 AM 1332 Views
Ignoring what? You haven't shown me anything solid. - 05/02/2012 05:25:23 AM 1219 Views
It's ok, we're done. *NM* - 05/02/2012 09:29:05 AM 721 Views
Since few people oppose ADULT contraception access, that might be wise in this case. - 04/02/2012 08:25:49 PM 1389 Views
Re: Since few people oppose ADULT contraception access, that might be wise in this case. - 05/02/2012 02:11:28 AM 1246 Views
If you are arguing most sex ed opponents are naïve/ignorant, I agree. - 05/02/2012 08:42:17 AM 1074 Views
Re: If you are arguing most sex ed opponents are naïve/ignorant, I agree. - 05/02/2012 10:04:59 PM 1265 Views
Re: If you are arguing most sex ed opponents are naïve/ignorant, I agree. - 06/02/2012 08:57:38 PM 1198 Views
I'm done discussing my use of the term "oppression." The Tim Ryan stuff is interesting, though. - 07/02/2012 05:37:05 AM 1335 Views
Yet, regrettably, not done misusing it. - 08/02/2012 06:01:32 PM 1452 Views
Re: Yet, regrettably, not done misusing it. - 09/02/2012 05:30:58 AM 1289 Views
Re: Yet, regrettably, not done misusing it. - 11/02/2012 02:58:00 AM 1313 Views
Re: Yet, regrettably, not done misusing it. - 14/02/2012 04:29:08 AM 1395 Views
Re: Yet, regrettably, not done misusing it. - 19/02/2012 01:54:30 AM 1282 Views
Re: Yet, regrettably, not done misusing it. - 23/02/2012 10:59:32 PM 1607 Views
Re: Yet, regrettably, not done misusing it. - 07/03/2012 01:47:44 AM 1274 Views
Re: Yet, regrettably, not done misusing it. - 15/03/2012 10:27:23 PM 1515 Views
There are problems with the implants - 03/02/2012 01:42:55 AM 1276 Views
You have a talent for understatement. - 03/02/2012 01:08:40 PM 1277 Views
I agree that they have made Beast Cancer a cult but splitting with PP is just smart - 02/02/2012 05:39:49 PM 1437 Views
I agree. - 02/02/2012 06:00:17 PM 1220 Views
yes she is going to have to piss off one group or the other - 02/02/2012 06:12:31 PM 1262 Views
Right - 02/02/2012 06:24:14 PM 1306 Views
Do you see a way Komen could have avoided pissing off one side? - 02/02/2012 06:55:36 PM 1232 Views
No, I don't. I don't believe I said that? - 02/02/2012 07:53:50 PM 1148 Views
You didn't; I inferred it from the way you phrased that ("if she HAS to..."). Sorry. - 02/02/2012 08:06:11 PM 1275 Views
I know I'm not always clear. - 02/02/2012 08:32:47 PM 1248 Views
Just curious... - 02/02/2012 10:07:49 PM 1222 Views
Not at all. - 02/02/2012 10:24:19 PM 1265 Views
Not at all? - 02/02/2012 10:32:31 PM 1178 Views
No. - 02/02/2012 10:47:04 PM 1116 Views
My argument is based on my belief that the pro-choice women are more dedicated to women's causes - 02/02/2012 11:17:24 PM 1214 Views
Re: My argument is based on my belief that the pro-choice women are more dedicated to women's causes - 03/02/2012 12:08:01 AM 1213 Views
wow that may be the worst advice I had in weeks - 03/02/2012 12:13:18 AM 1205 Views
Ooor, the best. - 03/02/2012 12:25:56 AM 1189 Views
ok now you are just being mean *NM* - 03/02/2012 12:46:12 AM 714 Views
The thread was going too well - I thought we needed the meanness. *NM* - 03/02/2012 11:30:39 AM 661 Views
rabble rouser *NM* - 04/02/2012 04:24:01 AM 729 Views
I misread this at first - 03/02/2012 12:51:44 AM 1225 Views
not to mention codeine seems to make me double post - 02/02/2012 11:17:26 PM 2273 Views
I'm not so sure I agree. Or not completely. - 02/02/2012 06:14:11 PM 1161 Views
I don't diagree with the way you see it - 02/02/2012 06:39:41 PM 1237 Views
More inevitable than anything, considering who started Komen. - 02/02/2012 10:19:34 PM 1186 Views
Never having heard of any of those except PP, my opinion may not be the most relevant... - 02/02/2012 08:32:48 PM 1283 Views
You don't know stuff. - 02/02/2012 08:43:38 PM 1267 Views
I know the stuff that matters. - 02/02/2012 09:55:08 PM 1161 Views
That's true. - 02/02/2012 10:34:32 PM 1272 Views
they may also be a afraid that PP will go the way of ACORN - 02/02/2012 11:04:16 PM 1308 Views
"Accused" of = unfounded slander. - 03/02/2012 12:13:30 AM 1350 Views
This is so foreign a debate for me - 02/02/2012 10:16:15 PM 1293 Views
Must be nice. *NM* - 03/02/2012 12:26:49 AM 747 Views
Re: stuff - 03/02/2012 09:18:53 AM 1163 Views
I'm sorry, but what're we talking about when we're talking about "cancer" - 03/02/2012 12:49:34 PM 1224 Views
Obviously not adenocarcinoma, no. - 04/02/2012 07:36:06 AM 1305 Views
I"m not that fussed. I'm just generally leary of research that has results like that - 04/02/2012 08:35:04 PM 1160 Views
Fair enough. - 04/02/2012 10:17:31 PM 1309 Views
They restored funding incidentally - 03/02/2012 05:43:47 PM 1184 Views
Unless I've missed it - 03/02/2012 05:56:15 PM 1241 Views
You must have missed it then - 03/02/2012 07:07:13 PM 1190 Views
If you're referring to Cannoli - 03/02/2012 07:19:25 PM 1353 Views
Multiple was not an accidental choice of words - 03/02/2012 11:46:30 PM 1212 Views
Then I agree that maybe this is not the thread for you. - 04/02/2012 12:41:42 AM 1244 Views
Re: Then I agree that maybe this is not the thread for you. - 04/02/2012 01:53:25 AM 1451 Views
Well, I'll try again for both of us. - 04/02/2012 02:56:42 PM 1279 Views
Re: Well, I'll try again for both of us. - 04/02/2012 07:40:25 PM 1235 Views
well at least there will not be any doubt about this being a political decision - 03/02/2012 06:24:14 PM 1349 Views
I think that ship sailed long ago. - 03/02/2012 08:45:13 PM 1196 Views
Truth - 04/02/2012 02:07:20 AM 1245 Views
I do wonder a bit which lawmakers Fox thinks "pressured" Komen. - 03/02/2012 08:29:50 PM 1179 Views
are you trying to disprove the study you posted? - 03/02/2012 09:20:12 PM 1339 Views
To me, it depends on the nature of the contact, which I have not dug enough to discover. - 03/02/2012 10:43:45 PM 1175 Views
you admit you have no incite into what happened - 04/02/2012 04:27:17 AM 1251 Views
Actually, it looks like Komens new VP (and former GOP GA gubernatorial candidate) had the incite. - 04/02/2012 04:24:14 PM 1280 Views
educated guess don't work when you are tinfoil hat wearing kool-aid drinker - 04/02/2012 09:33:49 PM 1210 Views
Dude. - 04/02/2012 11:20:49 PM 1092 Views
Yo mama? - 05/02/2012 05:32:11 AM 1282 Views
whhhhhhyyyyyy - 04/02/2012 11:23:58 PM 1268 Views
Why would I not think that? - 05/02/2012 05:46:15 AM 1117 Views

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