Wheel of Time Messageboard: Re: Egwene, a poor leader? by fairfax

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Re: Egwene, a poor leader? fairfax Send a noteboard - 19/12/2010 08:41:31 PM

I'm not so sure about the appointment part. From what I understand, the Hall has a great deal of influence over this process. Besides, what offices are there to which Egwene can make appointments? The only one I can think of it as ambassadors to other nations; the Hall and Ajahs run the rest.

The power of apppointment can be used either positively or negatively. Egwene can appoint sisters who oppose her to meaningless tasks or meaningless places without input from the Hall. An ally of Romanda could be sent to Arad Doman to distribute food, an ally of Lelaine could be given task of rat removal for Tar Valon, and if you really piss Egwene off you could be sent as a Windfinder instructor. On a positive note Egwene can make appointments that strengthen he position in the Tower. Silvliana is an example. Egwene got a very competetant Keeper and she made a gesture that would get Red support. Egwene can use appointments to weaken her foes and strengthen her supporters.

Which makes her a tyrant, rather than a good leader per say. A good leader unites people with positive reinforcement, a tyrant makes paranoid decisions like demoting enemies. If she goes that path, she's no better than Elaida.

The definition of a tyrant: a soverign or ruler who uses power oppressively or unjustly. Tell me when Egwene used her power oppressively or unjustly. Don't give me the speech she gave to the Aes Sedai when the Tower was united. Giving a speech that might make you fell bad is not oppressive. Sending a Sister that is dispruptive to distrbute food in Arad Doman, a job that should be done is not oppresive. It is what a good leader does. A real life example: When the Neville Chamberlain government fell the two candidates for being Prime Minister of Great Britain were Winston Churchill and Lord Halifax. Winston was selected. Winston didn't want the potentially disruptive Lord Halifax around so he made Lord Halifax Ambassador to the United States. Was the duly elected Winston Churchill a tyrant?

You obviously have never been a manager in a business, a political leader, or lead a diverse group of people. I have never seen in my 30 years in business a good manager exclusively use positive reinforcement. The idea that a good leader unites people only using positive reinforcement is the realm of the young, the inexperienced, and dreamworld college professors who have never had to manage a business/nation in their lives.

can rely on what, ten Aes Sedai? Out of approximately 1000? Elayne and Nynaeve aren't planning on living their lives in the Tower to be able to support her, so while trustworthy I really can't count on them as being reliable when it really comes down to it. As you say, she'll need 20 years for all the novices to become AS before she's able to rely on them. In the interrim, she'll have to fight tooth and nail to get anything done.

I think Egwene can rely on a few more than ten Aes Sedai. The Aes Sedai who really oppose Egwene are few in number. Most of the Aes Sedai will support Egwene because she is the Amyrlin. Romanda, Lelaine, and their handful of supporters will continue to oppose some if not most of Egwene policies, but I don't think they want to overthrow Egwene with Tarmon Gaidan just around the corner.

I guess we will have to disagree on the power of the moral suasion of Nyneave and Elayne. I think most Aes Seadai seeing Egwene being supported by the Queen of Malkier, defeater of Moggy, healer of the stilled, healer of the taint, healer of taint madness, healer of the weather, and the most powerful channeler in the Tower would give supporting Egwene a thought.

IMO, using the respect of others as a justification of leadership only goes so far. If she is a GOOD leader, she will at least be respected (not feared) by her enemies. IMO, a big part of this is humility. Her decisions should be respected because they make sense on their own, not because she is the one putting them forward. So far, I think her decision making hasn't been too bad, everything given, but coming up to Merrilor I see a situation where her ego could affect her rationality.

A good leader is both respected and feared by her enemies. You are right the respect and support of Elayne and Nyneave as justification of leadership only goes so far. That respect and support are just one leg that supports Egwene. You are also right Egwene will rise or fall on her own decisions and actions. So far she has done alright. Why do you think the upcoming situation, in Merrilor, that Egwene's ego will affect her rationality?

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Egwene, a poor leader? redhand - 16/12/2010 05:59:15 PM 2483 Views

Egwene isn't supposed to be a leader. She's a dictator and a politician. lilltempest - 16/12/2010 08:21:13 PM 1665 Views

Well! No love lost there

echooff - 17/12/2010 01:52:59 PM 1145 Views

Re: Egwene, a poor leader? RabidWombat - 16/12/2010 09:35:44 PM 1420 Views

Re: Egwene, a poor leader? Hot Pie - 16/12/2010 10:53:20 PM 1379 Views

If the Shadow had removed Elaida so Egwene was Amyrlin whilst Rand was still Dark ... ajfurst - 16/12/2010 11:56:08 PM 1269 Views

Same thing if Elaida was in charge when meeting w/ Dark Rand. *NM* Lord Haart - 17/12/2010 02:10:20 AM 709 Views

Except Rand wouldn't go to the WT with Elaida in charge, without having to fight ajfurst - 17/12/2010 02:50:18 AM 1420 Views

Re: Egwene, a poor leader? fairfax - 17/12/2010 03:07:40 AM 1426 Views

Exactly how loyal do you think Nynaeve and Elayne are? moratcorlm - 17/12/2010 04:52:34 AM 1239 Views

Re: Exactly how loyal do you think Nynaeve and Elayne are? fairfax - 17/12/2010 05:44:30 AM 1312 Views

That was the case a few books back Lord Haart - 17/12/2010 07:44:32 AM 1311 Views

Re: That was the case a few books back fairfax - 17/12/2010 10:14:36 AM 1343 Views

Re: Egwene, a poor leader? Macharius - 17/12/2010 02:30:48 PM 1383 Views

Re: Egwene, a poor leader? fairfax - 17/12/2010 08:25:39 PM 1119 Views

Re: Egwene, a poor leader? Lord Haart - 18/12/2010 05:06:21 AM 1321 Views

Re: Egwene, a poor leader? fairfax - 19/12/2010 08:41:31 PM 1234 Views

Torturing Nynaeve for exclusively her own political ends. *NM* moratcorlm - 20/12/2010 12:14:55 AM 733 Views

Re: Torturing Nynaeve for exclusively her own political ends. fairfax - 20/12/2010 01:24:12 AM 1252 Views

And the most painful torments were caused by Egwene moratcorlm - 20/12/2010 09:31:44 AM 1374 Views

That's not quite true. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 20/12/2010 06:47:33 PM 1165 Views

That's not quite accurate. moratcorlm - 21/12/2010 01:22:26 AM 1411 Views

Re: Egwene, a poor leader? Lord Haart - 20/12/2010 12:57:42 AM 1140 Views

Re: Egwene, a poor leader? fairfax - 20/12/2010 02:02:05 AM 1303 Views

Re: Egwene, a poor leader? Lord Haart - 22/12/2010 07:08:37 AM 1230 Views

She has the same power base as any Amyrlin - the Aes Sedai, the artisans, Guards & citizens of TV RugbyPlayingAshaman - 17/12/2010 05:51:20 PM 1313 Views

Ta'veren vs. Mary Sue lilltempest - 17/12/2010 07:33:28 PM 1760 Views

I see them as being the same thing. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 17/12/2010 08:11:30 PM 1337 Views

I don't think the case can be made for Rand having it easy A Deathwatch Guard - 17/12/2010 11:04:58 PM 1222 Views

I would say that in the grand scheme of things, Rand's had good to balance out the bad. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 20/12/2010 06:27:35 PM 1209 Views

Funniest statement I've ever seen on here. Lord Haart - 18/12/2010 05:22:28 AM 1319 Views

Agree with your comments. Rebekah - 20/12/2010 03:12:32 PM 1670 Views

But you are just undervaluing Egwene's struggles in comparison to the other characters. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 20/12/2010 06:17:17 PM 1621 Views

Re: But you are just undervaluing Egwene's struggles in comparison to the other characters. Lord Haart - 22/12/2010 05:28:01 PM 1430 Views

You need to post more about Egwene Zeratul - 17/12/2010 08:16:19 PM 1292 Views

Nah. Just a hyopcrite. *NM* Chas - 17/12/2010 09:28:28 PM 698 Views

Yes, but for completely different reasons... fionwe1987 - 18/12/2010 12:35:23 AM 1331 Views

Yes, communication is key. Lord Haart - 18/12/2010 05:32:01 AM 1166 Views

You think Egwene has more power than Tuon? Lohikaarme - 18/12/2010 12:27:01 PM 1161 Views

Re: You think Egwene has more power than Tuon? Lord Haart - 18/12/2010 02:41:25 PM 1086 Views

Definitely... fionwe1987 - 18/12/2010 03:24:12 PM 1190 Views

Where does the 200000 number come from? *NM* moratcorlm - 18/12/2010 03:36:22 PM 631 Views

That's not right... Hot Pie - 19/12/2010 12:56:25 AM 1173 Views

Re: That's not right... fairfax - 19/12/2010 11:38:54 PM 1289 Views

What's said above. Plus Lohikaarme - 19/12/2010 11:00:42 AM 1140 Views

More explanations... fionwe1987 - 20/12/2010 02:51:25 AM 1176 Views

Re: More explanations... moratcorlm - 20/12/2010 09:40:46 AM 1244 Views

Aiel, Cairhien and Andor are NOT under Egwenes power. Lohikaarme - 20/12/2010 02:46:44 PM 1261 Views

Re: More explanations... Zeratul - 20/12/2010 03:58:58 PM 1348 Views

An Amyrlin doesn't really have a power base. BlackAdder - 18/12/2010 05:43:12 AM 1256 Views

I think comparing Egwene to McCain is asking for trouble on several fronts.

Joel - 20/12/2010 12:33:04 AM 1162 Views

She has a pretty powerful weapon... fionwe1987 - 20/12/2010 02:41:32 AM 1188 Views

RJ is more powerful. Joel - 20/12/2010 03:25:49 AM 1322 Views

I'd advise a re-read. Of ToM, and maybe the whole series... fionwe1987 - 20/12/2010 03:58:03 AM 1225 Views

Re: I'd advise a re-read. Of ToM, and maybe the whole series... Lohikaarme - 21/12/2010 09:08:20 PM 1224 Views

Re: She has a pretty powerful weapon... moratcorlm - 20/12/2010 09:46:22 AM 1269 Views

Re: She has a pretty powerful weapon... fionwe1987 - 20/12/2010 09:55:03 AM 1162 Views

Re: She has a pretty powerful weapon... moratcorlm - 20/12/2010 10:27:59 AM 1223 Views

One example of this... Zeratul - 20/12/2010 11:15:03 AM 1259 Views

Re: One example of this... moratcorlm - 20/12/2010 11:22:10 AM 1124 Views

Re: She has a pretty powerful weapon... Zeratul - 20/12/2010 11:08:35 AM 1196 Views

That's not quite true. Chas - 20/12/2010 10:35:45 PM 1223 Views

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<quote id="180447">
<quote>
I'm not so sure about the appointment part. From what I understand, the Hall has a great deal of influence over this process. Besides, what offices are there to which Egwene can make appointments? The only one I can think of it as ambassadors to other nations; the Hall and Ajahs run the rest.
</quote>
<quote>
The power of apppointment can be used either positively or negatively.  Egwene can appoint sisters who oppose her to meaningless tasks or meaningless places without input from the Hall. An ally of Romanda could be sent to Arad Doman to distribute food, an ally of Lelaine could be given task of rat removal for Tar Valon, and if you really piss Egwene off you could be sent as a Windfinder instructor.  On a positive note Egwene can make appointments that strengthen he position in the Tower.  Silvliana is an example.  Egwene got a very competetant Keeper and she made a gesture that would get Red support.  Egwene can use appointments to weaken her foes and strengthen her supporters.
</quote>
<quote>
Which makes her a tyrant, rather than a good leader per say.  A good leader unites people with positive reinforcement, a tyrant makes paranoid decisions like demoting enemies.  If she goes that path, she's no better than Elaida.
</quote>

You obviously have never been a manager in a business, a political leader, or lead a diverse group of people.  I have never seen in my 30 years in business a good manager exclusively use positive reinforcement.  The idea that a good leader unites people only using positive reinforcement is the realm of the young,  the inexperienced, and dreamworld college professors who have never had to manage a business/nation in their lives.

<quote>
can rely on what, ten Aes Sedai? Out of approximately 1000? Elayne and Nynaeve aren't planning on living their lives in the Tower to be able to support her, so while trustworthy I really can't count on them as being reliable when it really comes down to it. As you say, she'll need 20 years for all the novices to become AS before she's able to rely on them. In the interrim, she'll have to fight tooth and nail to get anything done.</quote>
<quote>
I think Egwene can rely on a few more than ten Aes Sedai.  The Aes Sedai who really oppose Egwene are few in number.  Most of the Aes Sedai will support Egwene because she is the Amyrlin.  Romanda, Lelaine, and their handful of supporters will continue to oppose some if not most of Egwene policies, but I don't think they want to overthrow Egwene with Tarmon Gaidan just around the corner.

I guess we will have to disagree on the power of the moral suasion of Nyneave and Elayne.  I think most Aes Seadai seeing Egwene being supported by the Queen of Malkier, defeater of Moggy, healer of the stilled, healer of the taint, healer of taint madness, healer of the weather, and the most powerful channeler in the Tower would give supporting Egwene a thought. </quote>
<quote>
IMO, using the respect of others as a justification of leadership only goes so far.  If she is a GOOD leader, she will at least be respected (not feared) by her enemies.  IMO, a big part of this is humility.  Her decisions should be respected because they make sense on their own, not because she is the one putting them forward.  So far, I think her decision making hasn't been too bad, everything given, but coming up to Merrilor I see a situation where her ego could affect her rationality.</quote>

A good leader is both respected and feared by her enemies.  You are right the respect and support of Elayne and Nyneave as justification of leadership only goes so far.  That respect and support are just one leg that supports Egwene.  You are also right Egwene will rise or fall on her own decisions and actions.  So far she has done alright.  Why do you think the upcoming situation, in Merrilor, that Egwene's ego will affect her rationality?
</quote>

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