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Re: I think the two of you have taken too narrow a meaning of 'great' Iain83 Send a noteboard - 03/03/2011 12:01:30 AM
I can see what you're getting at, but it's a distinction that I don't accept. Although I agree there are many popular books that all one asks from is enjoyment (e.g. Dan Brown, JK Rowling, John Buchan, LM Montgomery), I don't agree that being popular renders a book/author ineligble for the classification of 'great' either.

Essentially, I think I'm just more willing to award the title of 'great' to an author who excels in matters of ideas, characterisation, imagery or story-telling (at a level far beyond what's necessary to be enjoyable). Great means you excel in your field, whatever that may be. So, someone who is 'one of the best writers of French popular literature' whose 'genius was story-telling' is someone I'd call 'great'.


That's more the exception than the norm with most of the writers I've listed, but you also have to consider my culture is not yours, and the French literary tradition is (and even more, was) quite different from the anglo-saxon one. French and English for all their similarities remain very different languages, and have different aesthetics.
Most of the writers I've listed are hardly florid and in fact some like Zola, Camus are recognized for the very opposite!

As for "poetic", this has a slightly different value in the French language (and it's not exclusive to French... Japanese, Russian, Chinese... many languages values the poetic aspect of prose a great deal more than it's done in English (except of course in poetry in its various forms), that values "efficiency" over beauty in prose. By "poetic" the French don't necessarily mean the language is close to the aesthetics of classic poetry. It's more the combination of how interesting it sounds aloud (the musicality, the rhythm), and how evocative it is.

As an aside, that's hardly the sole standards by which French culture has traditionally judged what is and isn't "great literature", especially foreign ones, for which the French just don't expect French aesthetics and are far more interested in substance, vision, perspective for foreign books (they value that a lot in French literature too, of course - it's not all or necessarily primarly about "beautiful prose". The French don't like beautiful prose without substance (but do say that writing great ideas with average prose is a shame!).


Fair enough - I'm much less familiar with books of other languages, so much of our difference in definition may well be to do with a difference in cultural definition.
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Can someone explain to me how Jordan is not a particularly good writer? - 21/02/2011 05:41:31 PM 3404 Views
I personally see it as more of RJ being a fantastic story teller, but not a well structured writer. - 21/02/2011 06:44:21 PM 1810 Views
Re: I personally see it as more of RJ being a fantastic story teller, but not a well structured - 22/02/2011 10:59:25 PM 1437 Views
What do you think about the Southern Gothic authors? - 23/02/2011 08:08:26 AM 1299 Views
Re: What do you think about the Southern Gothic authors? - 23/02/2011 10:51:57 AM 1383 Views
Oh, it really depends. - 23/02/2011 05:39:07 PM 1175 Views
thanks, I'll have a look *NM* - 23/02/2011 05:40:50 PM 879 Views
For the same reason that most people think they have above average intelligence. - 21/02/2011 11:13:34 PM 1799 Views
Thank you. - 21/02/2011 11:43:08 PM 1497 Views
Well Said! - 22/02/2011 02:42:22 PM 1458 Views
I can take a shot at that, since nobody else seems willing to. - 22/02/2011 07:29:20 AM 1833 Views
Do you enjoy reading Robert Jordan's ... - 22/02/2011 04:31:28 PM 1532 Views
Not particularly. - 22/02/2011 10:22:00 PM 1655 Views
Agreed. - 22/02/2011 10:37:08 PM 1349 Views
As far as I'm concerned, the only way to gauge whether an author is good or not is ... - 22/02/2011 03:58:17 PM 1383 Views
Amen *NM* - 22/02/2011 04:32:50 PM 858 Views
Re: Can someone explain to me how Jordan is not a particularly good writer? - 22/02/2011 06:27:11 PM 2252 Views
Brain overload! This is really well thought out. - 23/02/2011 10:22:37 PM 1437 Views
thank you for the insight into the outside view lol - 24/02/2011 04:34:57 PM 1445 Views
I think DomA answered the question best, but the "do you like it" argument is weak. - 22/02/2011 10:32:51 PM 1673 Views
Re: I think DomA answered the question best, but the "do you like it" argument is weak. - 22/02/2011 11:16:24 PM 1591 Views
The Necronomicon isn't actually a book, you know. *NM* - 22/02/2011 11:28:29 PM 786 Views
There are nine, actually... - 23/02/2011 12:04:55 AM 1593 Views
I hope I am misunderstanding you. - 23/02/2011 10:57:47 PM 1273 Views
Re: I hope I am misunderstanding you. - 24/02/2011 10:41:09 AM 1414 Views
If the core of the story is all that matters, why read a book - 24/02/2011 10:32:01 PM 1374 Views
Re: If the core of the story is all that matters, why read a book - 24/02/2011 11:23:42 PM 1263 Views
So wait, style is good? - 25/02/2011 12:32:07 AM 1624 Views
Re: So wait, style is good? - 25/02/2011 08:53:55 AM 1241 Views
I'm not trolling - 25/02/2011 11:57:18 PM 1261 Views
That depends... - 23/02/2011 03:00:35 AM 1535 Views
the "do you like it" is the most important criterion - 23/02/2011 10:45:17 PM 1378 Views
Re: the "do you like it" is the most important criterion - 24/02/2011 01:53:59 AM 1363 Views
Thumbs up - IMHO, all discussion can end here - 28/02/2011 05:45:34 PM 1488 Views
Not for quality of writing. - 24/02/2011 05:17:52 PM 1334 Views
Those who can do, the rest are critics. *NM* - 24/02/2011 07:55:50 PM 856 Views
I object, sir! People don't read WoT for the way it's told? - 24/02/2011 12:58:58 AM 1418 Views
If you don't mind me asking... - 24/02/2011 01:05:12 AM 1228 Views
Re: If you don't mind me asking... - 24/02/2011 02:19:17 AM 1297 Views
I still don't get it. - 24/02/2011 08:27:50 AM 1213 Views
Re: If you don't mind me asking... - 24/02/2011 11:29:14 PM 1275 Views
I don't mind that you ask, but I'm not going to engage in a defense of literature. - 24/02/2011 05:35:27 PM 1230 Views
Re: I don't mind that you ask, but I'm not going to engage in a defense of literature. - 24/02/2011 11:26:55 PM 1353 Views
I'm sure you have a wonderful job awaiting in fast food service. - 25/02/2011 01:57:15 AM 1402 Views
Re: I'm sure you have a wonderful job awaiting in fast food service. - 25/02/2011 08:56:06 AM 1315 Views
Jack @$$ snobbery at its best. WOW *NM* - 28/02/2011 05:48:43 PM 861 Views
... - 25/02/2011 01:07:22 AM 1245 Views
Maybe you should have used better prose? - 25/02/2011 01:23:17 AM 1113 Views
It is not a serious question. - 25/02/2011 01:53:59 AM 1289 Views
How so? - 25/02/2011 02:59:05 AM 1398 Views
I have every right to use that tone. - 25/02/2011 03:08:14 PM 1338 Views
Is that so? - 25/02/2011 05:58:31 AM 1399 Views
I'm not fixated with Jordan. - 25/02/2011 03:13:56 PM 1344 Views
Then why do you keep trying to qualify the passage in relation to him? - 25/02/2011 06:29:31 PM 1392 Views
You're conflating two things. - 25/02/2011 07:32:59 PM 1420 Views
All right, now we're getting somewhere. - 26/02/2011 12:40:57 AM 1322 Views
you raise very good questions... *NM* - 26/02/2011 09:21:13 AM 789 Views
Okay, here you go. I am giving you the benefit of the doubt as to your sincerity. - 26/02/2011 03:20:44 PM 1146 Views
Thank you, and I agree with all your explanations. *NM* - 26/02/2011 07:28:09 PM 790 Views
Glad to hear that. - 27/02/2011 03:42:33 AM 1219 Views
No problem, these things happen on the internet. *NM* - 27/02/2011 04:36:57 AM 837 Views
No, it is a serious question, just one that can never be seriously answered. - 25/02/2011 03:28:48 PM 1301 Views
Your opinion isn't as valid as anyone else's if that's your opinion. - 25/02/2011 04:44:57 PM 1451 Views
Jack @$$ snobbery at its best. WOW *NM* - 28/02/2011 05:51:48 PM 710 Views
double post. oh my! *NM* - 28/02/2011 05:52:17 PM 738 Views
Just makes you right twice *NM* - 28/02/2011 09:42:19 PM 845 Views
Re: ... - 25/02/2011 08:59:37 AM 1292 Views
And part 2, on the analysis of writing. - 24/02/2011 01:16:20 AM 1344 Views
Florid desciption is usually not a good thing. - 24/02/2011 05:30:30 PM 1278 Views
Re: I find this whole thing elitist and more than a bit silly - 23/02/2011 06:45:05 AM 1458 Views
Why do you think mind-expanding literature is restricted to the classics? - 23/02/2011 08:03:59 AM 1235 Views
Re: Why do you think mind-expanding literature is restricted to the classics? - 23/02/2011 09:25:10 AM 1435 Views
Of course people read for pleasure. - 23/02/2011 09:04:24 PM 1239 Views
Ok... - 24/02/2011 08:59:27 AM 1246 Views
"Yeah well, that's, like, just your opinion, man." Good argument. - 24/02/2011 03:43:24 PM 1338 Views
*NM* - 24/02/2011 05:37:02 PM 758 Views
I find your above average tastes and intelligence uninspiring. - 24/02/2011 08:42:03 PM 1190 Views
I'm curious to hear who Tom and DomA consider a "very good writer"? - 24/02/2011 05:49:13 PM 1325 Views
Among living writers? - 24/02/2011 08:16:08 PM 1389 Views
No Rushdie? - 24/02/2011 09:22:46 PM 1257 Views
I was considering mentioning Rushdie. - 24/02/2011 09:32:20 PM 1222 Views
My list would be similar... - 26/02/2011 07:24:11 AM 1488 Views
That was a very good list. - 26/02/2011 03:07:31 PM 1377 Views
Re: That was a very good list. - 27/02/2011 04:51:43 AM 1403 Views
Once I finish Hugo I'm probably going to read Druon. - 27/02/2011 02:30:03 PM 1216 Views
Oh, and another question - 27/02/2011 05:28:47 PM 1142 Views
Re: Oh, and another question - 01/03/2011 03:42:02 AM 1345 Views
One final question, if you'll indulge me... - 01/03/2011 06:43:23 PM 1191 Views
Well, until I have time to return to your previous post but... - 01/03/2011 07:45:13 PM 1393 Views
I think the two of you have taken too narrow a meaning of 'great' - 27/02/2011 11:14:30 AM 1535 Views
You like Solzhenitsyn but not other Russian writers? - 27/02/2011 02:43:46 PM 1354 Views
Re: You like Solzhenitsyn but not other Russian writers? - 02/03/2011 11:47:19 PM 1515 Views
Re: I think the two of you have taken too narrow a meaning of 'great' - 28/02/2011 11:51:49 PM 1444 Views
Re: I think the two of you have taken too narrow a meaning of 'great' - 03/03/2011 12:01:30 AM 1446 Views
Link to DomA Post from up above: - 03/03/2011 12:20:11 AM 1580 Views
He's a great storyteller, but his prose is somewhat uninspiring. *NM* - 27/02/2011 07:28:00 PM 870 Views

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