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I think the two of you have taken too narrow a meaning of 'great' Iain83 Send a noteboard - 27/02/2011 11:14:30 AM
Almost all of the authors you've mentioned are in a very similar style - highly descriptive or even poetic prose, deep imagery, often long with many side-branchings and digressions. Now I'm not saying that these authors aren't great - but it's not the only mark of greatness. Consider the ability to set a scene in spare and tight prose, to bring characters to life vividly in a few words, to make the reader consider and rethink a social or moral issue - is doing these well not worthy of greatness? Take Harper Lee, for example - To Kill a Mockingbird is very different from those you mention, but excluding it feels like saying Picasso's Guernica is not great beacuse it's not a Monet.

[For the record, whilst I enjoy the Wheel of Time a lot, even in modern fantasy it's only one of my favourites rather than a clear winner and, good as he is, I wouldn't claim Jordan will go down through the ages].

I'll admit to having read only half of those you mention. I'm not argue against any of them (any book still admired centuries on is likely to be 'great' regardless of my personal taste). But those I'd personally rate of them are Marquez, Eco, Dante, Orwell, Huxley, Dumas and Swift. I disagree with you about Steinbeck and Hemingway - I think both are consistently excellent - but agree in not thinking much of Joyce or the Brontes. I've also never personally been able to see the appeal of Salinger, Rushdie, Cervantes or any Russian author with the exception of Solzhenitsyn - Tolstoy and Bulgakov were OK, but I struggled through; I never managed to finish any others.

My own list would look quite different and I think broader in style. From the top of my head, I'd push for:

[b]20th Century[/b]
- Vikram Seth: I'd say An Equal Music was even better than A Suitable Boy.
- C. P. Snow: Sparseness of prose that allows him to depict characters and their choices with great depth.
- Harper Lee: Incredibly powerfully written and accessibly moral call to arms.
- Steinbeck and Hemingway, as discussed aboe.
- A. S. Byatt: for the beauty of her language, both poetry and prose, in Possession.
- Herman Wouk: The Caine Mutiny is a masterpiece in claustrophobia; The Winds of War/War and Remembrance a similar mastery of the epic, whilst Marjorie Morningstar and A Hole in Texas show he can write well, if not to the same level, in radically different styles.
- Orwell: Again, very powerfully written and sparse prose.
- Tolkein: I can (and have) read Lord of the Rings over and and over just for the richness of the language and description.
- Solzhenitsyn: The First Circle and A Day in the Life of... are opposites in style and equally strong.
- Douglas Hofstadter: comes close to blurring the edge between fiction and non-fiction in his cross-disciplinary writing (Godel Escher Bach being the most well-known).

[b]19th Century[/b]
- Dumas: As you've described.
- Kipling: One who literary people love to hate, but his plots, characters and vividness of setting shine through - and he did it for children, adults, short stories, novels and poetry.
- Gaskell: Like the Brontes tried to do, but she succeeded.
- Austen: Genuinely funny and moving.
- Chesterton: For his prolificness and range of style from non-fiction books and essays, through popular detective to Orwellian dystopia.
- Verne: Not just his imagination, but for his characters.
- Conan Doyle: Each story is masterfully crafted.
(I find Dickens quite mixed)

[b]The very old[/b]
- Swift: as you described
- Ovid and Virgil: both superior to Homer in my opinion; genuinely enjoyable and gripping.
(I guess I've not read that much of the very old).

I'd welcome your views on these - particularly if you'd consider them 'not great', I'd ask why.
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Can someone explain to me how Jordan is not a particularly good writer? - 21/02/2011 05:41:31 PM 3116 Views
I personally see it as more of RJ being a fantastic story teller, but not a well structured writer. - 21/02/2011 06:44:21 PM 1498 Views
Re: I personally see it as more of RJ being a fantastic story teller, but not a well structured - 22/02/2011 10:59:25 PM 1154 Views
What do you think about the Southern Gothic authors? - 23/02/2011 08:08:26 AM 1015 Views
Re: What do you think about the Southern Gothic authors? - 23/02/2011 10:51:57 AM 1114 Views
Oh, it really depends. - 23/02/2011 05:39:07 PM 876 Views
thanks, I'll have a look *NM* - 23/02/2011 05:40:50 PM 731 Views
For the same reason that most people think they have above average intelligence. - 21/02/2011 11:13:34 PM 1489 Views
Thank you. - 21/02/2011 11:43:08 PM 1227 Views
Well Said! - 22/02/2011 02:42:22 PM 1147 Views
I can take a shot at that, since nobody else seems willing to. - 22/02/2011 07:29:20 AM 1518 Views
Do you enjoy reading Robert Jordan's ... - 22/02/2011 04:31:28 PM 1181 Views
Not particularly. - 22/02/2011 10:22:00 PM 1305 Views
Agreed. - 22/02/2011 10:37:08 PM 1077 Views
As far as I'm concerned, the only way to gauge whether an author is good or not is ... - 22/02/2011 03:58:17 PM 1059 Views
Amen *NM* - 22/02/2011 04:32:50 PM 719 Views
Re: Can someone explain to me how Jordan is not a particularly good writer? - 22/02/2011 06:27:11 PM 1931 Views
Brain overload! This is really well thought out. - 23/02/2011 10:22:37 PM 1121 Views
thank you for the insight into the outside view lol - 24/02/2011 04:34:57 PM 1182 Views
I think DomA answered the question best, but the "do you like it" argument is weak. - 22/02/2011 10:32:51 PM 1300 Views
Re: I think DomA answered the question best, but the "do you like it" argument is weak. - 22/02/2011 11:16:24 PM 1240 Views
The Necronomicon isn't actually a book, you know. *NM* - 22/02/2011 11:28:29 PM 633 Views
There are nine, actually... - 23/02/2011 12:04:55 AM 1296 Views
I hope I am misunderstanding you. - 23/02/2011 10:57:47 PM 997 Views
Re: I hope I am misunderstanding you. - 24/02/2011 10:41:09 AM 1146 Views
If the core of the story is all that matters, why read a book - 24/02/2011 10:32:01 PM 1073 Views
Re: If the core of the story is all that matters, why read a book - 24/02/2011 11:23:42 PM 930 Views
So wait, style is good? - 25/02/2011 12:32:07 AM 1337 Views
Re: So wait, style is good? - 25/02/2011 08:53:55 AM 967 Views
I'm not trolling - 25/02/2011 11:57:18 PM 1014 Views
That depends... - 23/02/2011 03:00:35 AM 1207 Views
the "do you like it" is the most important criterion - 23/02/2011 10:45:17 PM 1081 Views
Re: the "do you like it" is the most important criterion - 24/02/2011 01:53:59 AM 1075 Views
Thumbs up - IMHO, all discussion can end here - 28/02/2011 05:45:34 PM 1225 Views
Not for quality of writing. - 24/02/2011 05:17:52 PM 1010 Views
Those who can do, the rest are critics. *NM* - 24/02/2011 07:55:50 PM 699 Views
I object, sir! People don't read WoT for the way it's told? - 24/02/2011 12:58:58 AM 1117 Views
If you don't mind me asking... - 24/02/2011 01:05:12 AM 910 Views
Re: If you don't mind me asking... - 24/02/2011 02:19:17 AM 1026 Views
I still don't get it. - 24/02/2011 08:27:50 AM 914 Views
Re: If you don't mind me asking... - 24/02/2011 11:29:14 PM 969 Views
I don't mind that you ask, but I'm not going to engage in a defense of literature. - 24/02/2011 05:35:27 PM 900 Views
Re: I don't mind that you ask, but I'm not going to engage in a defense of literature. - 24/02/2011 11:26:55 PM 1069 Views
I'm sure you have a wonderful job awaiting in fast food service. - 25/02/2011 01:57:15 AM 1132 Views
Re: I'm sure you have a wonderful job awaiting in fast food service. - 25/02/2011 08:56:06 AM 1030 Views
Jack @$$ snobbery at its best. WOW *NM* - 28/02/2011 05:48:43 PM 731 Views
... - 25/02/2011 01:07:22 AM 965 Views
Maybe you should have used better prose? - 25/02/2011 01:23:17 AM 827 Views
It is not a serious question. - 25/02/2011 01:53:59 AM 976 Views
How so? - 25/02/2011 02:59:05 AM 1094 Views
I have every right to use that tone. - 25/02/2011 03:08:14 PM 1052 Views
Is that so? - 25/02/2011 05:58:31 AM 1043 Views
I'm not fixated with Jordan. - 25/02/2011 03:13:56 PM 1053 Views
Then why do you keep trying to qualify the passage in relation to him? - 25/02/2011 06:29:31 PM 1101 Views
You're conflating two things. - 25/02/2011 07:32:59 PM 1081 Views
All right, now we're getting somewhere. - 26/02/2011 12:40:57 AM 983 Views
you raise very good questions... *NM* - 26/02/2011 09:21:13 AM 639 Views
Okay, here you go. I am giving you the benefit of the doubt as to your sincerity. - 26/02/2011 03:20:44 PM 838 Views
Thank you, and I agree with all your explanations. *NM* - 26/02/2011 07:28:09 PM 655 Views
Glad to hear that. - 27/02/2011 03:42:33 AM 918 Views
No problem, these things happen on the internet. *NM* - 27/02/2011 04:36:57 AM 715 Views
No, it is a serious question, just one that can never be seriously answered. - 25/02/2011 03:28:48 PM 997 Views
Your opinion isn't as valid as anyone else's if that's your opinion. - 25/02/2011 04:44:57 PM 1143 Views
Jack @$$ snobbery at its best. WOW *NM* - 28/02/2011 05:51:48 PM 566 Views
double post. oh my! *NM* - 28/02/2011 05:52:17 PM 604 Views
Just makes you right twice *NM* - 28/02/2011 09:42:19 PM 697 Views
Re: ... - 25/02/2011 08:59:37 AM 1024 Views
And part 2, on the analysis of writing. - 24/02/2011 01:16:20 AM 1044 Views
Florid desciption is usually not a good thing. - 24/02/2011 05:30:30 PM 992 Views
Re: I find this whole thing elitist and more than a bit silly - 23/02/2011 06:45:05 AM 1128 Views
Why do you think mind-expanding literature is restricted to the classics? - 23/02/2011 08:03:59 AM 966 Views
Re: Why do you think mind-expanding literature is restricted to the classics? - 23/02/2011 09:25:10 AM 1128 Views
Of course people read for pleasure. - 23/02/2011 09:04:24 PM 927 Views
Ok... - 24/02/2011 08:59:27 AM 966 Views
"Yeah well, that's, like, just your opinion, man." Good argument. - 24/02/2011 03:43:24 PM 1040 Views
*NM* - 24/02/2011 05:37:02 PM 595 Views
I find your above average tastes and intelligence uninspiring. - 24/02/2011 08:42:03 PM 904 Views
I'm curious to hear who Tom and DomA consider a "very good writer"? - 24/02/2011 05:49:13 PM 1052 Views
Among living writers? - 24/02/2011 08:16:08 PM 1085 Views
No Rushdie? - 24/02/2011 09:22:46 PM 977 Views
I was considering mentioning Rushdie. - 24/02/2011 09:32:20 PM 933 Views
My list would be similar... - 26/02/2011 07:24:11 AM 1195 Views
That was a very good list. - 26/02/2011 03:07:31 PM 1017 Views
Re: That was a very good list. - 27/02/2011 04:51:43 AM 1076 Views
Once I finish Hugo I'm probably going to read Druon. - 27/02/2011 02:30:03 PM 866 Views
Oh, and another question - 27/02/2011 05:28:47 PM 860 Views
Re: Oh, and another question - 01/03/2011 03:42:02 AM 1036 Views
One final question, if you'll indulge me... - 01/03/2011 06:43:23 PM 926 Views
Well, until I have time to return to your previous post but... - 01/03/2011 07:45:13 PM 1060 Views
I think the two of you have taken too narrow a meaning of 'great' - 27/02/2011 11:14:30 AM 1136 Views
You like Solzhenitsyn but not other Russian writers? - 27/02/2011 02:43:46 PM 1044 Views
Re: You like Solzhenitsyn but not other Russian writers? - 02/03/2011 11:47:19 PM 1119 Views
Re: I think the two of you have taken too narrow a meaning of 'great' - 28/02/2011 11:51:49 PM 1170 Views
Re: I think the two of you have taken too narrow a meaning of 'great' - 03/03/2011 12:01:30 AM 1063 Views
Link to DomA Post from up above: - 03/03/2011 12:20:11 AM 1288 Views
He's a great storyteller, but his prose is somewhat uninspiring. *NM* - 27/02/2011 07:28:00 PM 723 Views

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