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Re: I think the two of you have taken too narrow a meaning of 'great' Iain83 Send a noteboard - 03/03/2011 12:01:30 AM
I can see what you're getting at, but it's a distinction that I don't accept. Although I agree there are many popular books that all one asks from is enjoyment (e.g. Dan Brown, JK Rowling, John Buchan, LM Montgomery), I don't agree that being popular renders a book/author ineligble for the classification of 'great' either.

Essentially, I think I'm just more willing to award the title of 'great' to an author who excels in matters of ideas, characterisation, imagery or story-telling (at a level far beyond what's necessary to be enjoyable). Great means you excel in your field, whatever that may be. So, someone who is 'one of the best writers of French popular literature' whose 'genius was story-telling' is someone I'd call 'great'.


That's more the exception than the norm with most of the writers I've listed, but you also have to consider my culture is not yours, and the French literary tradition is (and even more, was) quite different from the anglo-saxon one. French and English for all their similarities remain very different languages, and have different aesthetics.
Most of the writers I've listed are hardly florid and in fact some like Zola, Camus are recognized for the very opposite!

As for "poetic", this has a slightly different value in the French language (and it's not exclusive to French... Japanese, Russian, Chinese... many languages values the poetic aspect of prose a great deal more than it's done in English (except of course in poetry in its various forms), that values "efficiency" over beauty in prose. By "poetic" the French don't necessarily mean the language is close to the aesthetics of classic poetry. It's more the combination of how interesting it sounds aloud (the musicality, the rhythm), and how evocative it is.

As an aside, that's hardly the sole standards by which French culture has traditionally judged what is and isn't "great literature", especially foreign ones, for which the French just don't expect French aesthetics and are far more interested in substance, vision, perspective for foreign books (they value that a lot in French literature too, of course - it's not all or necessarily primarly about "beautiful prose". The French don't like beautiful prose without substance (but do say that writing great ideas with average prose is a shame!).


Fair enough - I'm much less familiar with books of other languages, so much of our difference in definition may well be to do with a difference in cultural definition.
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Can someone explain to me how Jordan is not a particularly good writer? - 21/02/2011 05:41:31 PM 3116 Views
I personally see it as more of RJ being a fantastic story teller, but not a well structured writer. - 21/02/2011 06:44:21 PM 1498 Views
Re: I personally see it as more of RJ being a fantastic story teller, but not a well structured - 22/02/2011 10:59:25 PM 1154 Views
What do you think about the Southern Gothic authors? - 23/02/2011 08:08:26 AM 1015 Views
Re: What do you think about the Southern Gothic authors? - 23/02/2011 10:51:57 AM 1114 Views
Oh, it really depends. - 23/02/2011 05:39:07 PM 876 Views
thanks, I'll have a look *NM* - 23/02/2011 05:40:50 PM 731 Views
For the same reason that most people think they have above average intelligence. - 21/02/2011 11:13:34 PM 1489 Views
Thank you. - 21/02/2011 11:43:08 PM 1227 Views
Well Said! - 22/02/2011 02:42:22 PM 1147 Views
I can take a shot at that, since nobody else seems willing to. - 22/02/2011 07:29:20 AM 1518 Views
Do you enjoy reading Robert Jordan's ... - 22/02/2011 04:31:28 PM 1181 Views
Not particularly. - 22/02/2011 10:22:00 PM 1305 Views
Agreed. - 22/02/2011 10:37:08 PM 1077 Views
As far as I'm concerned, the only way to gauge whether an author is good or not is ... - 22/02/2011 03:58:17 PM 1059 Views
Amen *NM* - 22/02/2011 04:32:50 PM 719 Views
Re: Can someone explain to me how Jordan is not a particularly good writer? - 22/02/2011 06:27:11 PM 1931 Views
Brain overload! This is really well thought out. - 23/02/2011 10:22:37 PM 1121 Views
thank you for the insight into the outside view lol - 24/02/2011 04:34:57 PM 1182 Views
I think DomA answered the question best, but the "do you like it" argument is weak. - 22/02/2011 10:32:51 PM 1300 Views
Re: I think DomA answered the question best, but the "do you like it" argument is weak. - 22/02/2011 11:16:24 PM 1240 Views
The Necronomicon isn't actually a book, you know. *NM* - 22/02/2011 11:28:29 PM 633 Views
There are nine, actually... - 23/02/2011 12:04:55 AM 1296 Views
I hope I am misunderstanding you. - 23/02/2011 10:57:47 PM 996 Views
Re: I hope I am misunderstanding you. - 24/02/2011 10:41:09 AM 1146 Views
If the core of the story is all that matters, why read a book - 24/02/2011 10:32:01 PM 1073 Views
Re: If the core of the story is all that matters, why read a book - 24/02/2011 11:23:42 PM 930 Views
So wait, style is good? - 25/02/2011 12:32:07 AM 1337 Views
Re: So wait, style is good? - 25/02/2011 08:53:55 AM 967 Views
I'm not trolling - 25/02/2011 11:57:18 PM 1014 Views
That depends... - 23/02/2011 03:00:35 AM 1207 Views
the "do you like it" is the most important criterion - 23/02/2011 10:45:17 PM 1081 Views
Re: the "do you like it" is the most important criterion - 24/02/2011 01:53:59 AM 1075 Views
Thumbs up - IMHO, all discussion can end here - 28/02/2011 05:45:34 PM 1225 Views
Not for quality of writing. - 24/02/2011 05:17:52 PM 1010 Views
Those who can do, the rest are critics. *NM* - 24/02/2011 07:55:50 PM 699 Views
I object, sir! People don't read WoT for the way it's told? - 24/02/2011 12:58:58 AM 1117 Views
If you don't mind me asking... - 24/02/2011 01:05:12 AM 910 Views
Re: If you don't mind me asking... - 24/02/2011 02:19:17 AM 1026 Views
I still don't get it. - 24/02/2011 08:27:50 AM 914 Views
Re: If you don't mind me asking... - 24/02/2011 11:29:14 PM 969 Views
I don't mind that you ask, but I'm not going to engage in a defense of literature. - 24/02/2011 05:35:27 PM 900 Views
Re: I don't mind that you ask, but I'm not going to engage in a defense of literature. - 24/02/2011 11:26:55 PM 1069 Views
I'm sure you have a wonderful job awaiting in fast food service. - 25/02/2011 01:57:15 AM 1132 Views
Re: I'm sure you have a wonderful job awaiting in fast food service. - 25/02/2011 08:56:06 AM 1030 Views
Jack @$$ snobbery at its best. WOW *NM* - 28/02/2011 05:48:43 PM 731 Views
... - 25/02/2011 01:07:22 AM 965 Views
Maybe you should have used better prose? - 25/02/2011 01:23:17 AM 827 Views
It is not a serious question. - 25/02/2011 01:53:59 AM 976 Views
How so? - 25/02/2011 02:59:05 AM 1094 Views
I have every right to use that tone. - 25/02/2011 03:08:14 PM 1052 Views
Is that so? - 25/02/2011 05:58:31 AM 1043 Views
I'm not fixated with Jordan. - 25/02/2011 03:13:56 PM 1053 Views
Then why do you keep trying to qualify the passage in relation to him? - 25/02/2011 06:29:31 PM 1101 Views
You're conflating two things. - 25/02/2011 07:32:59 PM 1081 Views
All right, now we're getting somewhere. - 26/02/2011 12:40:57 AM 983 Views
you raise very good questions... *NM* - 26/02/2011 09:21:13 AM 639 Views
Okay, here you go. I am giving you the benefit of the doubt as to your sincerity. - 26/02/2011 03:20:44 PM 838 Views
Thank you, and I agree with all your explanations. *NM* - 26/02/2011 07:28:09 PM 655 Views
Glad to hear that. - 27/02/2011 03:42:33 AM 918 Views
No problem, these things happen on the internet. *NM* - 27/02/2011 04:36:57 AM 715 Views
No, it is a serious question, just one that can never be seriously answered. - 25/02/2011 03:28:48 PM 997 Views
Your opinion isn't as valid as anyone else's if that's your opinion. - 25/02/2011 04:44:57 PM 1143 Views
Jack @$$ snobbery at its best. WOW *NM* - 28/02/2011 05:51:48 PM 566 Views
double post. oh my! *NM* - 28/02/2011 05:52:17 PM 604 Views
Just makes you right twice *NM* - 28/02/2011 09:42:19 PM 697 Views
Re: ... - 25/02/2011 08:59:37 AM 1024 Views
And part 2, on the analysis of writing. - 24/02/2011 01:16:20 AM 1044 Views
Florid desciption is usually not a good thing. - 24/02/2011 05:30:30 PM 992 Views
Re: I find this whole thing elitist and more than a bit silly - 23/02/2011 06:45:05 AM 1128 Views
Why do you think mind-expanding literature is restricted to the classics? - 23/02/2011 08:03:59 AM 966 Views
Re: Why do you think mind-expanding literature is restricted to the classics? - 23/02/2011 09:25:10 AM 1128 Views
Of course people read for pleasure. - 23/02/2011 09:04:24 PM 927 Views
Ok... - 24/02/2011 08:59:27 AM 966 Views
"Yeah well, that's, like, just your opinion, man." Good argument. - 24/02/2011 03:43:24 PM 1040 Views
*NM* - 24/02/2011 05:37:02 PM 595 Views
I find your above average tastes and intelligence uninspiring. - 24/02/2011 08:42:03 PM 904 Views
I'm curious to hear who Tom and DomA consider a "very good writer"? - 24/02/2011 05:49:13 PM 1052 Views
Among living writers? - 24/02/2011 08:16:08 PM 1085 Views
No Rushdie? - 24/02/2011 09:22:46 PM 977 Views
I was considering mentioning Rushdie. - 24/02/2011 09:32:20 PM 933 Views
My list would be similar... - 26/02/2011 07:24:11 AM 1195 Views
That was a very good list. - 26/02/2011 03:07:31 PM 1017 Views
Re: That was a very good list. - 27/02/2011 04:51:43 AM 1076 Views
Once I finish Hugo I'm probably going to read Druon. - 27/02/2011 02:30:03 PM 866 Views
Oh, and another question - 27/02/2011 05:28:47 PM 860 Views
Re: Oh, and another question - 01/03/2011 03:42:02 AM 1036 Views
One final question, if you'll indulge me... - 01/03/2011 06:43:23 PM 926 Views
Well, until I have time to return to your previous post but... - 01/03/2011 07:45:13 PM 1060 Views
I think the two of you have taken too narrow a meaning of 'great' - 27/02/2011 11:14:30 AM 1135 Views
You like Solzhenitsyn but not other Russian writers? - 27/02/2011 02:43:46 PM 1044 Views
Re: You like Solzhenitsyn but not other Russian writers? - 02/03/2011 11:47:19 PM 1119 Views
Re: I think the two of you have taken too narrow a meaning of 'great' - 28/02/2011 11:51:49 PM 1170 Views
Re: I think the two of you have taken too narrow a meaning of 'great' - 03/03/2011 12:01:30 AM 1063 Views
Link to DomA Post from up above: - 03/03/2011 12:20:11 AM 1288 Views
He's a great storyteller, but his prose is somewhat uninspiring. *NM* - 27/02/2011 07:28:00 PM 723 Views

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