If you feel only perfection can make people impressive, I feel sorry for you. And if you think the protagonists are as impressive as the caricature that was Elaida in that scene, I'm frankly befuddled. Really, after all Rand has endured and sacrificed on absolute altruism - he doesn't even get to enjoy the world being saved, he has to die before it happens! - you don't think he's impressive? I question your judgment. You think the average people could - would - do that?



But this way she deposed Siuan, not the Hall or whoever judges those trials.



Again, if this was really a problem, they should have brought it up with the Hall. (Though frankly, 'Aes Sedai' and 'shady tactics' and 'violated the spirit of the law [or Oath]' go together like bread and butter.)



I don't see how these qualities are relevant to this situation. Accusing people of something that isn't a crime doesn't serve the purpose of making her look more powerful, or get to spite her adversaries or anything. It just makes her look foolish and ignorant of Tower Law.



She didn't blame Elaida for it. She claimed she wasn't responsible for it. Which, as you've just admitted, is a lie.



I don't see what your point is. Either it was all right, in which case Elaida is to blame for nothing, or it wasn't, in which case they should have appealed to the Hall. Choose one or the other.



You're claiming... what, that Elaida wasn't a Sitter for the Hall? And that the other Sitters weren't Sitters for the Hall either? Whether you like it or not, those Sitters did have legitimate authority. You just a paragraph earlier retreated from claiming it was illegal. Is it or isn't it? My example was perfectly valid. Yours is not.



And Moiraine was under orders from Siuan, and a crime is a crime, whether people know them or not. 'If a man is murdered in the forest, and there is nobody around to witness it, was a crime committed?' is not a philosophical riddle. Besides, Egwene makes the accusations, Egwene knows about it, and Egwene is the hypocrite. Elaida's knowledge is irrelevant.

And Siuan most definitely did try. Read about what her and Moiraine's plan was, in The Great Hunt. Besides, 'failed' mean she did not succeed in containing Rand. And Siuan did not.



No, she is claiming that her side did not fail at containing Rand, unlike Elaida, and that is a lie.



I've argued with you enough, and I've never read anything even close to an admission of faults in Egwene... unless they were used to glorify her for overcoming them, or it was to excuse them. Again, you can't admit she did wrong, even though it is absolutely obvious.



Then she had no choice but to go to the Hall of the Tower, and she didn't go, but went to a group of women in some random village instead. She somehow disobeyed the summons, despite having 'no choice'! Incredible!

That you are actually desperate enough to use such a laughable argument is somewhat disappointing. Do you really think I'd fall for semantic nonsense such as this? Hey, remember when Moiraine said 'One year ago, the Dark One could command Fain, the Darkfriend, through his dreams' in The Eye of the World? Well, I thought that was just Ishamael, but Aes Sedai can't lie, so it must have been Shai'tan! Wow! Even the Forsaken have to go to Shayol Ghul, two years later, but a random Darkfriend like Fain gets dreams directly from Shai'tan! Hey, remember when Elaida said her task force would crush the Black Tower? Guess what? Elaida's an Aes Sedai! And Aes Sedai can't lie...

Need I go on?



Yes, she wouldn't want to start an argument between Aes Sedai and Rand, would she... except that she plans to do just that.

I'm sorry, I assumed that was sarcastic, but maybe I'm just being pessimistic and you were actually admitting the truth.



Neither do I, hence my puzzlement.



Rand took prisoners of war. He captured the enemy. And he never even cared to enslave them, he just wanted them kept prisoner. This was Verin's doing, as far as Rand is concerned, they came to him willingly. This has nothing to do with Egwene and Elaida enslaving their own people. As for your 'oh, I just killed a few people because they didn't give me the respect I feel I'm due. But I'm not a murderer. Why, if I killed everyone, you'd have a point' excuse, this just goes back to your incapacity to admit Egwene's wrongdoings. If enslaving is evil, enslaving is evil. You don't get a quota.



She didn't?



It has everything to do with Alviarin. Alviarin failed to obey Elaida, instead attempting to control her. Elaida wants to make sure that never happens again.

Anyway, since you claim 'all she did was demand oaths of those women who instead of giving her the obedience that is due to the position in which they put her, were working to undermine her.' makes the Fourth Oath justified, and this applies to Elaida. The women aren't obedient, they did put her in that position (all the Sisters in the Tower are those who supported Elaida's claim to Amyrlin, without whom she would not have any authority) and they are working to undermine her.


'Egwene has stated straight out that the reason she supports the Rebellion and wants Elaida out is because this keeps the Tower from interfering with Rand'... 'failing to contain Rand is a terrible offense of Elaida's'.

Apparently, she feels that Rand needs to be contained by the White Tower, but her goal in leading the rebellion is to see to it that it doesn't happen. Can't have it both ways, I'm afraid.