Active Users:562 Time:02/08/2025 06:11:01 AM
Re: Some more fionwe1987 Send a noteboard - 02/12/2015 12:27:40 AM

View original post
I think you are under the belief that men operate under a different power level structure here,

They do. Here's the RJ quote to prove it:
Regarding the percentage of women who could test for the shawl, it would be 62.5% of the bell curve. I’ll leave the maths to you for an idle moment. The question doesn’t really apply to men, since the Black Tower accepts anyone who can learn to channel, but if the White Tower limits were applied, it would be roughly 65.4% of the bell curve. Although, considering the effectiveness question, they should probably set it at the same 62.5%. Again, the maths are all yours. Regarding the levels of male strength, while the weakest man and the weakest woman would be roughly equivalent, you might say that there are several levels of male strength on top of the female levels. Remember to integrate this with what I’ve said elsewhere about effectiveness, though.

It isn't just that the strongest woman and strongest man are effectively equal despite a difference in the volume of OP they can draw. It carries all the way through, or there wouldn't be 2.9% of the male population that is technically strong enough to be Aes Sedai strength, but not effective enough to be considered so, if such limitations held at the BT.


when in fact men simply occupy more levels than women over all.

But are the men at the lowest rungs effective channelers at all? We've seen Morghase be able to do some small things. Can men at that level do anything? I doubt it. For all intents and purposes, all they have is the ability to rarely touch the OP, and increase their lifespan. Whereas Morgase is proof that women can actually use that puny strength to affect the world, if in incredibly small ways.
The weakest man and the weakest woman are roughly equal, but there are more strength levels for men as a whole (thus the ++ levels). Matching Aviendha's work at the river simply means he's roughly the same level as she is, or, given his strength with Air, he could actually be weaker overall, but still skilled enough to match her feat. Egwene is 4 levels below Nynaeve, but there is no way Nynaeve could match her cuendillar ability. Naeff is shown to be similar with Air. We know he has less strength than Nynaeve, but his ability with Air is clearly meant to be amazing thus he can match her.

If Naeff could draw as much of the OP as Aviendha, he wouldn't be able to have as much of an effect as her. Granted, he is strong in Air, but its not like she's weak in it.

I think the text from Merise's conversation with Cadsuane makes it pretty clear that Narishma is as strong as she is after his most recent jump in Power, if he was still weaker than she was she would not have commented on it IMO. And it seems he gained a pretty significant increase from the time she bonded him as she seems surprised by how quickly he moved up to her strength.

This is pure wish fulfilment. We have no way of knowing what she meant on his actual strength. We knew he had been previously forced, and we knew he could make a usable gateway. If, in a matter of weeks, he jumped up even one level, that is remarkable by Aes Sedai standards. So he could have moved from an effective level of 19 to 18, and that would still make Merise worry, as he is young, and could potentially outstrip her.

Not true that men would need to be a level 13 to Travel. It's stated outright under the "gateways" entry in the Companion that "the minimum strength required for making a gateway of useful size, large enough to walk through, was 19(7). The minimum strength required to make any gateway at all out of a circle was 21(9)".

The listing of a circle seems to be a pretty clear pointer that the strength levels being listed are for women.
Androl's Traveling talent is specifically called out in this entry so it seems true for men as well as women. There is no mention that this would be different for men than women. All we know here is that there would be a higher percentage of men who fall into this strength level or higher because men are generally stronger than women, but not always.

But a man of strength level 19 wouldn't be as effective as a woman in that level. There are entirely too many quotes that prove just this.
I suspect most of these men probably are stronger than level 19, but that's the highest we can reliably place them without more information from the text.

I suspect some are stronger, like Flinn, but I would just change that number to level 13.
I assume you are trying to include the "dexterity bonus" thus making a man stronger by several levels than a woman who can perform the same OP related task, but without a scale for both dexterity and strength it's impossible to say how this works.

There is no evidence that women's dexterity bonus has a scale. None. It seems to be a constant thing, if you look at all the quotes.

Take the RJ quote I posted above. If there is a dexterity scale, the numbers would be much more complicated. RJ would have to make a caveat for a man who is as strong as Daigian in raw strength, but more dextrous than most men, and therefor effective enough to be "Aes Sedai". But he doesn't. He clearly says men who are drawing as much OP as the weakest Aes Sedai would be too ineffective to technically be Aes Sedai.


We know that Level 1 female is roughly equal to a ++1 male, but we don't know that a level 2 female is more more/less effective than a level ++2 or if a level 3 female could be more effective than a level ++2 male. There is some disparity between the dexterity bonus and strength because a level 66 man and a level 66 woman are roughly equal.

Nope. We just don't know that a level 66 man can do anything. We know of someone who is either level 66 or very close to it who can actually move a handkerchief. A man of that level will simply be unable to do anything useful, per RJ's statement. Or maybe he can only mildly budge a fly. Point being, there is no equivalency in the lowest level beyond raw OP strength. They are clearly not effectively equal.

As for the lower levels below ++1 and 1, clearly there is an equality, and that goes all the way down to the female level 45, which is more effective than the male level 45, per RJ.

Reply to message
Sortable, searchable file of Channelers - 28/11/2015 10:01:57 PM 3420 Views
Outstanding job - 29/11/2015 04:15:17 PM 1173 Views
Re: Outstanding job - 29/11/2015 06:53:40 PM 1165 Views
Very impressive. Well done. - 29/11/2015 04:41:52 PM 1302 Views
Re: Very impressive. Well done. - 29/11/2015 06:54:02 PM 1194 Views
Quick Question - 30/11/2015 05:11:17 AM 1295 Views
Nope - 30/11/2015 05:44:04 AM 1307 Views
They do say it - 30/11/2015 10:32:48 AM 1491 Views
I added Rand and Lews Therin to the ++1 Strength - 30/11/2015 03:21:00 PM 1165 Views
Re: I added Rand and Lews Therin to the ++1 Strength - 01/12/2015 08:02:01 AM 1289 Views
Well, it also states that there are gradations within each level too - 01/12/2015 04:26:29 PM 1329 Views
Well maybe - 02/12/2015 06:31:05 AM 1281 Views
Here's how I see it: - 02/12/2015 08:34:54 AM 1346 Views
I agree - 02/12/2015 04:22:52 PM 1334 Views
Re: I agree - 02/12/2015 05:14:50 PM 1463 Views
It's always been confusing - 02/12/2015 06:00:01 PM 1429 Views
Re: It's always been confusing - 02/12/2015 07:27:11 PM 1415 Views
I wholeheartedly agree - 02/12/2015 08:07:39 PM 1214 Views
Re: Here's how I see it: - 02/12/2015 04:46:54 PM 1454 Views
Morgase - 03/12/2015 04:37:47 AM 1309 Views
I agree with you on this - 03/12/2015 03:22:22 PM 1165 Views
Re: Morgase - 03/12/2015 07:46:59 PM 1444 Views
I didn't realize he was being literal in that comment - 03/12/2015 09:29:52 PM 1284 Views
Re: Well maybe - 02/12/2015 03:52:49 PM 1392 Views
Re: Well maybe - 02/12/2015 04:42:37 PM 1452 Views
Probably - 02/12/2015 06:11:42 PM 1240 Views
Re: Probably - 02/12/2015 07:38:50 PM 1346 Views
Indeed - 02/12/2015 08:21:07 PM 1213 Views
Re: Indeed - 03/12/2015 04:08:03 AM 1154 Views
close enough to not debate about it - 03/12/2015 03:47:55 PM 1185 Views
Re: close enough to not debate about it - 03/12/2015 04:14:38 PM 1189 Views
I think you misunderstand what I'm saying - 03/12/2015 04:43:29 PM 1232 Views
Re: I think you misunderstand what I'm saying - 03/12/2015 05:41:17 PM 1267 Views
um, no - 03/12/2015 09:24:31 PM 1180 Views
You two seem like Egwene's interchangeable defenders to me; it's weird to see you fighting. - 04/12/2015 09:21:23 PM 1476 Views
That's on you... - 04/12/2015 09:46:51 PM 1206 Views
We've been arguing on the forums for like 10 years - 06/12/2015 07:36:55 PM 1144 Views
It's Cannoli, Darius - 06/12/2015 08:53:06 PM 1171 Views
LOL *NM* - 07/12/2015 03:26:40 AM 735 Views
Some points - 05/12/2015 11:14:30 AM 1184 Views
Re: close enough to not debate about it - 05/12/2015 11:29:44 AM 1238 Views
Re: I added Rand and Lews Therin to the ++1 Strength - 03/12/2015 07:22:15 AM 1149 Views
Great job - 30/11/2015 05:45:27 AM 1161 Views
Re: Great job - 30/11/2015 03:22:09 PM 1181 Views
Made a few adjustments to add some presumed minimum/maximum levels *NM* - 30/11/2015 04:28:13 PM 793 Views
Some questions - 30/11/2015 05:18:00 PM 1178 Views
Re: Some questions - 30/11/2015 07:26:29 PM 1152 Views
Re: Some questions - 01/12/2015 08:05:01 AM 1360 Views
That's why I added another column to it - 01/12/2015 04:25:04 PM 1229 Views
Some more - 01/12/2015 05:24:40 PM 1253 Views
Re: Some more - 01/12/2015 07:34:20 PM 1281 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 12:27:40 AM 1277 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 02:26:53 AM 1225 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 08:24:49 AM 1251 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 05:54:49 PM 1297 Views
Re: Some more - 03/12/2015 04:26:45 AM 1139 Views
You said this much better than I did - 03/12/2015 03:53:57 PM 1163 Views
I think the men are much too strong - 02/12/2015 09:01:56 AM 1353 Views
Yes - 02/12/2015 03:06:44 PM 1192 Views
Re: Yes - 02/12/2015 04:45:20 PM 1279 Views
Re: Yes - 02/12/2015 06:39:43 PM 1329 Views
Re: Yes - 03/12/2015 03:56:23 AM 1134 Views
I think when characters quoted information from their world it gets muddled - 03/12/2015 04:19:43 PM 1232 Views
Shielding - 05/12/2015 11:19:40 AM 1127 Views
I feel like there is an RJ quote about this actually - 06/12/2015 06:41:35 PM 1123 Views
Re: I feel like there is an RJ quote about this actually - 07/12/2015 12:39:54 PM 1168 Views
seriously! - 07/12/2015 04:55:43 PM 1178 Views
Who should defer to whom? - 01/12/2015 08:17:22 PM 1346 Views
Interesting... - 02/12/2015 08:44:32 AM 1303 Views
I think there needs to be a pretty significant (5+ levels) difference - 02/12/2015 06:25:35 PM 1341 Views
Good job - 05/12/2015 08:43:09 PM 1688 Views
Some questions - 06/12/2015 12:28:46 AM 1200 Views
Can't offer much - 06/12/2015 12:33:29 AM 1518 Views
Cool. Hopefully Dom will see this... - 06/12/2015 08:58:39 PM 1096 Views
Re: Some questions - 06/12/2015 08:06:56 PM 1157 Views
Then there would be some mention of it, yes/ - 06/12/2015 08:56:10 PM 1111 Views
Not at all ... He clearly had a general sense of how it worked - 07/12/2015 03:28:35 AM 1084 Views
Re: Some questions - 07/12/2015 04:19:43 PM 1380 Views
yet we also know that some things are inherently different for men and women - 07/12/2015 08:15:26 PM 1084 Views
it probably has to do with the fact that the characters in the books are also obsessed with strength - 06/12/2015 07:58:20 PM 1208 Views
Sort of. - 06/12/2015 10:30:36 PM 1677 Views
Makes sense - 07/12/2015 12:38:54 AM 1097 Views
Clearly his strength rankings came in mid-series - 07/12/2015 07:39:59 PM 1314 Views
Re: Clearly his strength rankings came in mid-series - 10/12/2015 05:33:27 AM 1171 Views
Probably something along those lines - 10/12/2015 03:44:48 PM 1064 Views
Lifespan question (Spoiler) - 08/12/2015 05:42:41 PM 1093 Views
Moiraine... - 09/12/2015 02:28:50 AM 1144 Views
That too is possible - 09/12/2015 03:02:12 PM 1122 Views
Some random trends/data points - 08/12/2015 08:39:14 PM 1125 Views
Who is the one Sharan? And I'm surprised so many Seanchan have listed strength levels. *NM* - 09/12/2015 02:42:51 AM 763 Views
Re: Who is the one Sharan? And I'm surprised so many Seanchan have listed strength levels. - 09/12/2015 02:31:18 PM 1197 Views
Not sure she can channel, though - 09/12/2015 03:22:17 PM 1016 Views
Re: Not sure she can channel, though - 09/12/2015 04:54:37 PM 1201 Views
duplicate post ignore *NM* - 09/12/2015 02:31:36 PM 669 Views
duplicate post ignore *NM* - 09/12/2015 02:31:55 PM 701 Views
so.... - 09/12/2015 06:10:41 AM 1189 Views
Nope... - 09/12/2015 03:24:07 PM 1153 Views
Yes - 09/12/2015 03:46:30 PM 1096 Views
Some things to consider - 09/12/2015 04:18:50 PM 1110 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 05:43:35 AM 1079 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 06:28:49 AM 1039 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 11:53:51 AM 1087 Views
Sorilea has always been shown as skilled - 10/12/2015 04:10:37 PM 1147 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 04:46:29 PM 1060 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 05:50:17 PM 1079 Views
plenty of weaker ones with notably strong Talents actually - 10/12/2015 06:26:03 PM 1163 Views
This is a flawed list - 11/12/2015 05:14:47 AM 1076 Views
and you are just rationalizing to make your point seem plausible - 11/12/2015 03:10:12 PM 1188 Views
another point about Talents (unrelated to the Strength question) - 11/12/2015 06:06:42 PM 1273 Views
Not really - 11/12/2015 09:09:41 PM 1144 Views
You are trying to force fit thin evidence into a sweeping statement - 11/12/2015 10:13:13 PM 1163 Views
Re: You are trying to force fit thin evidence into a sweeping statement - 12/12/2015 06:46:05 AM 1091 Views
Let's face it a body builder ninja is sort of funny to think about - 12/12/2015 02:55:37 PM 1191 Views
Some quotes - 12/12/2015 01:18:41 AM 1059 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 12/12/2015 03:18:30 AM 1171 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 12/12/2015 06:19:15 AM 1146 Views
Hey ... I have no interest in making you look stupid! - 12/12/2015 03:15:26 PM 1111 Views
Re: Hey ... I have no interest in making you look stupid! - 13/12/2015 11:26:17 AM 1116 Views
Yes, it's a sad thing to realize that this is pretty much the end of the road - 14/12/2015 04:40:50 PM 1077 Views
Re: Yes, it's a sad thing to realize that this is pretty much the end of the road - 15/12/2015 06:01:58 AM 1109 Views
I'm actually perplexed - 15/12/2015 07:19:27 AM 1044 Views
Re: I'm actually perplexed - 17/12/2015 11:36:59 AM 1160 Views
LOL ... Amen! *NM* - 15/12/2015 03:54:55 PM 714 Views
I don't think Elayne was that Strong in TSR - 10/12/2015 04:55:19 PM 1124 Views
Yes and No - 09/12/2015 04:35:48 PM 1070 Views
Re: Yes and No - 09/12/2015 10:41:32 PM 1163 Views
Indeed - 09/12/2015 11:01:03 PM 1122 Views
Ajah Strength Index - 09/12/2015 10:45:29 PM 1136 Views
Greens... - 10/12/2015 12:24:11 AM 1093 Views
Me too honestly - 10/12/2015 03:12:21 AM 1042 Views
Re: Me too honestly - 10/12/2015 04:59:42 AM 1080 Views
Re: Me too honestly - 10/12/2015 04:18:00 PM 1098 Views
Re: Ajah Strength Index - 10/12/2015 05:40:39 AM 1098 Views
I'm not so sure you'd have a chioce - 10/12/2015 04:01:35 PM 1068 Views
Liandrin's 13 - 10/12/2015 09:14:50 PM 1237 Views
Explain - 11/12/2015 05:16:55 AM 1169 Views
Several reasons ... Edited for clarity - 11/12/2015 02:54:58 PM 1267 Views
Bowl of the Winds Circle - 14/12/2015 09:41:33 PM 1096 Views
The Cleansing Circles ... some speculation here - 15/12/2015 05:52:14 PM 1078 Views
If I was Cadsuane I would have done it differently - 15/12/2015 10:01:07 PM 1103 Views
Aran'gar - 16/12/2015 01:11:17 AM 1257 Views
Re: Aran'gar - 16/12/2015 06:54:28 AM 1274 Views
mostly agree - 16/12/2015 06:27:06 PM 1143 Views
Re: Aran'gar - 16/12/2015 06:50:27 PM 1401 Views
Re: Aran'gar - 17/12/2015 10:07:48 AM 1307 Views
We do have some additional clues - 17/12/2015 06:26:20 PM 1300 Views
additional thought - 16/12/2015 06:49:04 PM 1084 Views
Does she know that? - 16/12/2015 06:58:24 PM 1230 Views
I'm speculating of course - 16/12/2015 07:37:10 PM 1135 Views
Strength by National origin - 16/12/2015 09:04:11 PM 1083 Views
Rebels v. Loyalists! - 16/12/2015 10:29:28 PM 1204 Views
Tamra's known hunters - 04/01/2016 06:58:17 PM 1173 Views
Known... - 05/01/2016 01:54:56 AM 1038 Views
Re: Known... - 05/01/2016 02:55:50 AM 1233 Views

Reply to Message