Active Users:1632 Time:16/12/2025 03:38:12 AM
Re: Indeed Sidious Send a noteboard - 03/12/2015 04:08:03 AM

View original post
View original post
View original post
I tend to agree with you that Rhavin probably is placed too high ... but RJ also made a point of showing that skill was more important than strength, look at Graendal, she's the second weakest Forsaken, but from the books was vastly more accomplished than those of much higher power!

And an another important point is that Graendal's fame came largely from her non OP skills. We knew she treated the minds the OP couldn't touch, and we don't know if the code of ethics of the AS let her use some forms of compulsion benevolently or if this was forbidden and she developed those skills, helped by her psychiatry background, only once a Forsaken.

Rhavin is largely described as a politician/diplomat. It's quite possible he never shone, despite his strength, as a channeler (the same can be said of Balthamel, for instance, and Moghedien). He surely was well trained, and surely he had to lend his Talents to tasks required by the Guild like everybody else, but it doesn't sound like he made a "OP"-focused career, the way Semirhage, Aginor, Lanfear or even Ishamael (as philosopher of the Wheel/Pattern/metaphysician) did. Demandred, like LTT, seems a bit of an unknown.. obviously both were very skilled channelers and it sounds likely they owed their ascension in the Guild to the merit of their service as AS, but as for the details we'll never know.



I do think Graendal should have had a higher strength rating given the comments from the books, or rather, that some of the other Forsaken should have been a bit lower as 3 doesn't seem too low for Graendal so much as Mesaana and Moghedien seem too high from the books. Semirhage was a little of a surprise, but not shocking. Mesaana as a 2 seems at least 2 levels too high and Moghedien seems like she should have been a 5, which also would have fit better with Nynaeve being her equal at one point, but still growing throughout the series without actually hitting her Level 3 potential. Similarly I would have thought the men would have been on at least 1 or even 2 more levels of the ++ ranks. From the books it seemed to me that the men should have been:

Ishamael, Aginor ++1
Demandred ++2
Sammael ++3
Balthamel ++3
Rhavin ++4
Be'lal ++4
Asmodean ++5

But to your point, Graendal clearly achieved her status through her career as a psychiatrist, despite her clear ability with the OP I find it strange that next to Moghedien she is the weakest of the Forsaken in strength.


Except that the books are not subtle at all regarding her prowess as a channeler. I have a strong feeling that she was strong in all five powers as well as unusually skilled with saidar, much like Egwene (I think Semirhage was too). She has no qualms taking on Sammael, Cyndane and Moghedien directly, and during the Last Battle she fought a group of the Light's most powerful channelers all at the same time. In many ways she was shown to be the most dangerous of all the Forsaken. I don't think it makes much of a difference if she was say 20% weaker than Ishamael if she has so much else going for her.

My male list would be...
Ishamael ++1
Demandred, Aginor, M'Hael ++2
Sammael, Rahvin ++3
Be'lal, Balthamel ++4
Asmodean ++5

Also remember that the Collapse took almost a century, and even the most unsuited channelers had plenty of time to learn to become lethal warriors with the Power. Peaceful non-channelers were eventually taking part in Sha-je duels... imagine what channelers were up to. After that they then had a full ten years during the War of Power to hone in on these skills, including a year where only balefire was used. Look at how dangerous Rand and Egwene became after only three years. If one reduced them to 'village people', it would be a dire mistake.

Wheel of Time board admin
Fan of Lanfear
Reply to message
Sortable, searchable file of Channelers - 28/11/2015 10:01:57 PM 3541 Views
Outstanding job - 29/11/2015 04:15:17 PM 1288 Views
Re: Outstanding job - 29/11/2015 06:53:40 PM 1260 Views
Very impressive. Well done. - 29/11/2015 04:41:52 PM 1429 Views
Re: Very impressive. Well done. - 29/11/2015 06:54:02 PM 1297 Views
Quick Question - 30/11/2015 05:11:17 AM 1438 Views
Nope - 30/11/2015 05:44:04 AM 1455 Views
They do say it - 30/11/2015 10:32:48 AM 1617 Views
I added Rand and Lews Therin to the ++1 Strength - 30/11/2015 03:21:00 PM 1291 Views
Re: I added Rand and Lews Therin to the ++1 Strength - 01/12/2015 08:02:01 AM 1407 Views
Well, it also states that there are gradations within each level too - 01/12/2015 04:26:29 PM 1436 Views
Well maybe - 02/12/2015 06:31:05 AM 1426 Views
Here's how I see it: - 02/12/2015 08:34:54 AM 1440 Views
I agree - 02/12/2015 04:22:52 PM 1448 Views
Re: I agree - 02/12/2015 05:14:50 PM 1611 Views
It's always been confusing - 02/12/2015 06:00:01 PM 1586 Views
Re: It's always been confusing - 02/12/2015 07:27:11 PM 1547 Views
I wholeheartedly agree - 02/12/2015 08:07:39 PM 1358 Views
Re: Here's how I see it: - 02/12/2015 04:46:54 PM 1605 Views
Morgase - 03/12/2015 04:37:47 AM 1485 Views
I agree with you on this - 03/12/2015 03:22:22 PM 1287 Views
Re: Morgase - 03/12/2015 07:46:59 PM 1584 Views
I didn't realize he was being literal in that comment - 03/12/2015 09:29:52 PM 1410 Views
Re: Well maybe - 02/12/2015 03:52:49 PM 1532 Views
Re: Well maybe - 02/12/2015 04:42:37 PM 1591 Views
Probably - 02/12/2015 06:11:42 PM 1350 Views
Re: Probably - 02/12/2015 07:38:50 PM 1466 Views
Indeed - 02/12/2015 08:21:07 PM 1330 Views
Re: Indeed - 03/12/2015 04:08:03 AM 1297 Views
close enough to not debate about it - 03/12/2015 03:47:55 PM 1305 Views
Re: close enough to not debate about it - 03/12/2015 04:14:38 PM 1299 Views
I think you misunderstand what I'm saying - 03/12/2015 04:43:29 PM 1354 Views
Re: I think you misunderstand what I'm saying - 03/12/2015 05:41:17 PM 1379 Views
um, no - 03/12/2015 09:24:31 PM 1294 Views
You two seem like Egwene's interchangeable defenders to me; it's weird to see you fighting. - 04/12/2015 09:21:23 PM 1638 Views
That's on you... - 04/12/2015 09:46:51 PM 1323 Views
We've been arguing on the forums for like 10 years - 06/12/2015 07:36:55 PM 1267 Views
It's Cannoli, Darius - 06/12/2015 08:53:06 PM 1276 Views
LOL *NM* - 07/12/2015 03:26:40 AM 798 Views
Some points - 05/12/2015 11:14:30 AM 1287 Views
Re: close enough to not debate about it - 05/12/2015 11:29:44 AM 1346 Views
Re: I added Rand and Lews Therin to the ++1 Strength - 03/12/2015 07:22:15 AM 1254 Views
Great job - 30/11/2015 05:45:27 AM 1305 Views
Re: Great job - 30/11/2015 03:22:09 PM 1298 Views
Made a few adjustments to add some presumed minimum/maximum levels *NM* - 30/11/2015 04:28:13 PM 872 Views
Some questions - 30/11/2015 05:18:00 PM 1284 Views
Re: Some questions - 30/11/2015 07:26:29 PM 1297 Views
Re: Some questions - 01/12/2015 08:05:01 AM 1479 Views
That's why I added another column to it - 01/12/2015 04:25:04 PM 1364 Views
Some more - 01/12/2015 05:24:40 PM 1381 Views
Re: Some more - 01/12/2015 07:34:20 PM 1402 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 12:27:40 AM 1420 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 02:26:53 AM 1338 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 08:24:49 AM 1389 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 05:54:49 PM 1430 Views
Re: Some more - 03/12/2015 04:26:45 AM 1237 Views
You said this much better than I did - 03/12/2015 03:53:57 PM 1290 Views
I think the men are much too strong - 02/12/2015 09:01:56 AM 1452 Views
Yes - 02/12/2015 03:06:44 PM 1286 Views
Re: Yes - 02/12/2015 04:45:20 PM 1401 Views
Re: Yes - 02/12/2015 06:39:43 PM 1449 Views
Re: Yes - 03/12/2015 03:56:23 AM 1240 Views
I think when characters quoted information from their world it gets muddled - 03/12/2015 04:19:43 PM 1358 Views
Shielding - 05/12/2015 11:19:40 AM 1213 Views
I feel like there is an RJ quote about this actually - 06/12/2015 06:41:35 PM 1235 Views
Re: I feel like there is an RJ quote about this actually - 07/12/2015 12:39:54 PM 1289 Views
seriously! - 07/12/2015 04:55:43 PM 1287 Views
Who should defer to whom? - 01/12/2015 08:17:22 PM 1439 Views
Interesting... - 02/12/2015 08:44:32 AM 1439 Views
I think there needs to be a pretty significant (5+ levels) difference - 02/12/2015 06:25:35 PM 1451 Views
Good job - 05/12/2015 08:43:09 PM 1819 Views
Some questions - 06/12/2015 12:28:46 AM 1296 Views
Can't offer much - 06/12/2015 12:33:29 AM 1623 Views
Cool. Hopefully Dom will see this... - 06/12/2015 08:58:39 PM 1220 Views
Re: Some questions - 06/12/2015 08:06:56 PM 1258 Views
Then there would be some mention of it, yes/ - 06/12/2015 08:56:10 PM 1247 Views
Not at all ... He clearly had a general sense of how it worked - 07/12/2015 03:28:35 AM 1190 Views
Re: Some questions - 07/12/2015 04:19:43 PM 1522 Views
yet we also know that some things are inherently different for men and women - 07/12/2015 08:15:26 PM 1209 Views
it probably has to do with the fact that the characters in the books are also obsessed with strength - 06/12/2015 07:58:20 PM 1317 Views
Sort of. - 06/12/2015 10:30:36 PM 1802 Views
Makes sense - 07/12/2015 12:38:54 AM 1220 Views
Clearly his strength rankings came in mid-series - 07/12/2015 07:39:59 PM 1445 Views
Re: Clearly his strength rankings came in mid-series - 10/12/2015 05:33:27 AM 1259 Views
Probably something along those lines - 10/12/2015 03:44:48 PM 1162 Views
Lifespan question (Spoiler) - 08/12/2015 05:42:41 PM 1206 Views
Moiraine... - 09/12/2015 02:28:50 AM 1287 Views
That too is possible - 09/12/2015 03:02:12 PM 1230 Views
Some random trends/data points - 08/12/2015 08:39:14 PM 1241 Views
Who is the one Sharan? And I'm surprised so many Seanchan have listed strength levels. *NM* - 09/12/2015 02:42:51 AM 814 Views
Re: Who is the one Sharan? And I'm surprised so many Seanchan have listed strength levels. - 09/12/2015 02:31:18 PM 1322 Views
Not sure she can channel, though - 09/12/2015 03:22:17 PM 1146 Views
Re: Not sure she can channel, though - 09/12/2015 04:54:37 PM 1304 Views
duplicate post ignore *NM* - 09/12/2015 02:31:36 PM 737 Views
duplicate post ignore *NM* - 09/12/2015 02:31:55 PM 765 Views
so.... - 09/12/2015 06:10:41 AM 1297 Views
Nope... - 09/12/2015 03:24:07 PM 1285 Views
Yes - 09/12/2015 03:46:30 PM 1208 Views
Some things to consider - 09/12/2015 04:18:50 PM 1224 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 05:43:35 AM 1172 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 06:28:49 AM 1155 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 11:53:51 AM 1198 Views
Sorilea has always been shown as skilled - 10/12/2015 04:10:37 PM 1274 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 04:46:29 PM 1199 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 05:50:17 PM 1194 Views
plenty of weaker ones with notably strong Talents actually - 10/12/2015 06:26:03 PM 1257 Views
This is a flawed list - 11/12/2015 05:14:47 AM 1189 Views
and you are just rationalizing to make your point seem plausible - 11/12/2015 03:10:12 PM 1301 Views
another point about Talents (unrelated to the Strength question) - 11/12/2015 06:06:42 PM 1374 Views
Not really - 11/12/2015 09:09:41 PM 1284 Views
You are trying to force fit thin evidence into a sweeping statement - 11/12/2015 10:13:13 PM 1289 Views
Re: You are trying to force fit thin evidence into a sweeping statement - 12/12/2015 06:46:05 AM 1197 Views
Let's face it a body builder ninja is sort of funny to think about - 12/12/2015 02:55:37 PM 1285 Views
Some quotes - 12/12/2015 01:18:41 AM 1183 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 12/12/2015 03:18:30 AM 1288 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 12/12/2015 06:19:15 AM 1244 Views
Hey ... I have no interest in making you look stupid! - 12/12/2015 03:15:26 PM 1195 Views
Re: Hey ... I have no interest in making you look stupid! - 13/12/2015 11:26:17 AM 1214 Views
Yes, it's a sad thing to realize that this is pretty much the end of the road - 14/12/2015 04:40:50 PM 1171 Views
Re: Yes, it's a sad thing to realize that this is pretty much the end of the road - 15/12/2015 06:01:58 AM 1225 Views
I'm actually perplexed - 15/12/2015 07:19:27 AM 1152 Views
Re: I'm actually perplexed - 17/12/2015 11:36:59 AM 1295 Views
LOL ... Amen! *NM* - 15/12/2015 03:54:55 PM 773 Views
I don't think Elayne was that Strong in TSR - 10/12/2015 04:55:19 PM 1239 Views
Yes and No - 09/12/2015 04:35:48 PM 1172 Views
Re: Yes and No - 09/12/2015 10:41:32 PM 1296 Views
Indeed - 09/12/2015 11:01:03 PM 1245 Views
Ajah Strength Index - 09/12/2015 10:45:29 PM 1226 Views
Greens... - 10/12/2015 12:24:11 AM 1204 Views
Me too honestly - 10/12/2015 03:12:21 AM 1151 Views
Re: Me too honestly - 10/12/2015 04:59:42 AM 1208 Views
Re: Me too honestly - 10/12/2015 04:18:00 PM 1222 Views
Re: Ajah Strength Index - 10/12/2015 05:40:39 AM 1213 Views
I'm not so sure you'd have a chioce - 10/12/2015 04:01:35 PM 1195 Views
Liandrin's 13 - 10/12/2015 09:14:50 PM 1327 Views
Explain - 11/12/2015 05:16:55 AM 1275 Views
Several reasons ... Edited for clarity - 11/12/2015 02:54:58 PM 1375 Views
Bowl of the Winds Circle - 14/12/2015 09:41:33 PM 1229 Views
The Cleansing Circles ... some speculation here - 15/12/2015 05:52:14 PM 1215 Views
If I was Cadsuane I would have done it differently - 15/12/2015 10:01:07 PM 1257 Views
Aran'gar - 16/12/2015 01:11:17 AM 1371 Views
Re: Aran'gar - 16/12/2015 06:54:28 AM 1396 Views
mostly agree - 16/12/2015 06:27:06 PM 1244 Views
Re: Aran'gar - 16/12/2015 06:50:27 PM 1531 Views
Re: Aran'gar - 17/12/2015 10:07:48 AM 1433 Views
We do have some additional clues - 17/12/2015 06:26:20 PM 1430 Views
additional thought - 16/12/2015 06:49:04 PM 1203 Views
Does she know that? - 16/12/2015 06:58:24 PM 1377 Views
I'm speculating of course - 16/12/2015 07:37:10 PM 1259 Views
Strength by National origin - 16/12/2015 09:04:11 PM 1182 Views
Rebels v. Loyalists! - 16/12/2015 10:29:28 PM 1298 Views
Tamra's known hunters - 04/01/2016 06:58:17 PM 1280 Views
Known... - 05/01/2016 01:54:56 AM 1168 Views
Re: Known... - 05/01/2016 02:55:50 AM 1374 Views

Reply to Message