Active Users:1632 Time:16/12/2025 03:38:13 AM
Some points Sidious Send a noteboard - 05/12/2015 11:14:30 AM

I think in many ways Darius is right about this. I'd like to raise a few points.

Firstly, channelers can use the power that drives the universe and most of them know it, even if only on a subconscious level. What's worse is that they are living in a feudal and not very advanced society, and human nature naturally gravitates towards "boldness", arrogance and similar traits especially when one is handed great power (and longevity). Some of the stronger channelers have been said to be able to tear down half a palace if they want to. There are very few truly humble channelers in the books, and we've seen channelers fall back on the True Source if they don't get what they want. Channeling is a lot like physical strength - powerful, athletic and good looking people are often arrogant and "bold". It's a theme as old as civilization. Anaiya's statement isn't absurd if you consider that the Power is what has established the hierarchy of the WT. Right or wrong, there is no evidence that this has changed. They mentioned it when they chose Egwene as the rebel Amyrlin, and it has been the reason that they have hounded Cadsuane to be the Amyrlin several times, even at the very end of the series. Cadsuane mentioned that she was very arrogant in her power when she gained the shawl, until she was humbled by a near toothless wilder. She is almost the only character whom I can think of who appreciates that even the greatest can be humbled. Most other characters think that they were unlucky and will 'have their revenge'.

One should also remember that half of the AOL Aes Sedai joined the Shadow during the War of Power. Channeling definitely gives people a sense of god-like power in most instances, even if it's not fully apparent at first. Rand's allusion to Moiraine as a 'little sister' is more than a hint that this sort of structuring may have been present then too.

The actual act of channeling even creates euphoria, and Nynaeve under Compulsion admitted that having access to so much power terrifies her. It's very likely that boldness in personality grows with strength in the Power, especially in the WT where people have to respect you if you're strong even if you're an imbecile (look at Elaida). I'm not saying that it's intrinsic, but rather that it is reinforced socially. Aes Sedai are told they are better than non Aes Sedai, strong channelers can boss weaker ones around etc. There are countless times when AS have told Nynaeve about how massive she is going to be one day and after a few years that has got to rub off.

Secondly, no one has introduced anything about relativism. Many of the Forsaken are akin to AOL royalty. Most of them were world famous whereas Mesaana was not. I don't think it's an easy crowd to be around unless you have very good self-esteem. Mesaana was not an achiever in her age, and she's not even beautiful (sometimes this is enough for even a modern woman to make her feel diminished). Same with Moghedien. Compare this to the others who are all very strong, beautiful and formally accomplished and it explains a lot. Rahvin may not be famous, but he's pretty much as handsome as a man can be and as strong in the Power as possible - I doubt he's had to face many serious social issues in his life that he couldn't get past. Of course, when Mesaana is around anyone who is not Forsaken (like Alviarin), she comes across as great as any queen, and there's no lack of 'boldness' there. Her massive arrogance around Egwene was not subtle at all. There are many other examples - Nynaeve is a very bold woman, but she becomes meek around Alivia. Daigian sits quietly among other Aes Sedai because of her weakness, yet that meekness vanishes when she's with her warder or is out and about like as an individual Aes Sedai.

As a last point, I also don't think Mesaana has a capacity for evil that many of the Forsaken have. She basically admits it when comparing herself to Semirhage. People like Graendal, Lanfear, Demandred, Aginor and Ishamael have almost inhuman capacities for evil. It's unlikely that all of the Forsaken have the same capacity for evil. Many merely wanted immortality, and Mesaana was more obsessed with her Nazi children's courts from a distance, than someone like Semirhage who was trying to keep people alive for years in agony, Lanfear driving people to suicide in dreams, or Demandred feeding whole cities to Trollocs. It's likely some of the Forsaken often thought "what the hell am I doing here?"

I'm not surprised that Darius thought that Mesaana should be less than 2. I have never seen Mesaana so high on any strength list over all the years that we have been fighting about it. It's likely that she's like Aginor - very strong but not very charismatic.

Wheel of Time board admin
Fan of Lanfear
Reply to message
Sortable, searchable file of Channelers - 28/11/2015 10:01:57 PM 3541 Views
Outstanding job - 29/11/2015 04:15:17 PM 1288 Views
Re: Outstanding job - 29/11/2015 06:53:40 PM 1260 Views
Very impressive. Well done. - 29/11/2015 04:41:52 PM 1429 Views
Re: Very impressive. Well done. - 29/11/2015 06:54:02 PM 1297 Views
Quick Question - 30/11/2015 05:11:17 AM 1438 Views
Nope - 30/11/2015 05:44:04 AM 1455 Views
They do say it - 30/11/2015 10:32:48 AM 1617 Views
I added Rand and Lews Therin to the ++1 Strength - 30/11/2015 03:21:00 PM 1291 Views
Re: I added Rand and Lews Therin to the ++1 Strength - 01/12/2015 08:02:01 AM 1407 Views
Well, it also states that there are gradations within each level too - 01/12/2015 04:26:29 PM 1436 Views
Well maybe - 02/12/2015 06:31:05 AM 1426 Views
Here's how I see it: - 02/12/2015 08:34:54 AM 1441 Views
I agree - 02/12/2015 04:22:52 PM 1448 Views
Re: I agree - 02/12/2015 05:14:50 PM 1611 Views
It's always been confusing - 02/12/2015 06:00:01 PM 1586 Views
Re: It's always been confusing - 02/12/2015 07:27:11 PM 1547 Views
I wholeheartedly agree - 02/12/2015 08:07:39 PM 1358 Views
Re: Here's how I see it: - 02/12/2015 04:46:54 PM 1605 Views
Morgase - 03/12/2015 04:37:47 AM 1485 Views
I agree with you on this - 03/12/2015 03:22:22 PM 1287 Views
Re: Morgase - 03/12/2015 07:46:59 PM 1584 Views
I didn't realize he was being literal in that comment - 03/12/2015 09:29:52 PM 1410 Views
Re: Well maybe - 02/12/2015 03:52:49 PM 1532 Views
Re: Well maybe - 02/12/2015 04:42:37 PM 1591 Views
Probably - 02/12/2015 06:11:42 PM 1350 Views
Re: Probably - 02/12/2015 07:38:50 PM 1466 Views
Indeed - 02/12/2015 08:21:07 PM 1330 Views
Re: Indeed - 03/12/2015 04:08:03 AM 1297 Views
close enough to not debate about it - 03/12/2015 03:47:55 PM 1305 Views
Re: close enough to not debate about it - 03/12/2015 04:14:38 PM 1299 Views
I think you misunderstand what I'm saying - 03/12/2015 04:43:29 PM 1354 Views
Re: I think you misunderstand what I'm saying - 03/12/2015 05:41:17 PM 1379 Views
um, no - 03/12/2015 09:24:31 PM 1294 Views
You two seem like Egwene's interchangeable defenders to me; it's weird to see you fighting. - 04/12/2015 09:21:23 PM 1638 Views
That's on you... - 04/12/2015 09:46:51 PM 1323 Views
We've been arguing on the forums for like 10 years - 06/12/2015 07:36:55 PM 1267 Views
It's Cannoli, Darius - 06/12/2015 08:53:06 PM 1276 Views
LOL *NM* - 07/12/2015 03:26:40 AM 798 Views
Some points - 05/12/2015 11:14:30 AM 1288 Views
Re: close enough to not debate about it - 05/12/2015 11:29:44 AM 1346 Views
Re: I added Rand and Lews Therin to the ++1 Strength - 03/12/2015 07:22:15 AM 1254 Views
Great job - 30/11/2015 05:45:27 AM 1305 Views
Re: Great job - 30/11/2015 03:22:09 PM 1298 Views
Made a few adjustments to add some presumed minimum/maximum levels *NM* - 30/11/2015 04:28:13 PM 872 Views
Some questions - 30/11/2015 05:18:00 PM 1284 Views
Re: Some questions - 30/11/2015 07:26:29 PM 1297 Views
Re: Some questions - 01/12/2015 08:05:01 AM 1479 Views
That's why I added another column to it - 01/12/2015 04:25:04 PM 1364 Views
Some more - 01/12/2015 05:24:40 PM 1381 Views
Re: Some more - 01/12/2015 07:34:20 PM 1402 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 12:27:40 AM 1420 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 02:26:53 AM 1338 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 08:24:49 AM 1389 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 05:54:49 PM 1430 Views
Re: Some more - 03/12/2015 04:26:45 AM 1237 Views
You said this much better than I did - 03/12/2015 03:53:57 PM 1290 Views
I think the men are much too strong - 02/12/2015 09:01:56 AM 1452 Views
Yes - 02/12/2015 03:06:44 PM 1286 Views
Re: Yes - 02/12/2015 04:45:20 PM 1401 Views
Re: Yes - 02/12/2015 06:39:43 PM 1449 Views
Re: Yes - 03/12/2015 03:56:23 AM 1240 Views
I think when characters quoted information from their world it gets muddled - 03/12/2015 04:19:43 PM 1358 Views
Shielding - 05/12/2015 11:19:40 AM 1213 Views
I feel like there is an RJ quote about this actually - 06/12/2015 06:41:35 PM 1235 Views
Re: I feel like there is an RJ quote about this actually - 07/12/2015 12:39:54 PM 1289 Views
seriously! - 07/12/2015 04:55:43 PM 1287 Views
Who should defer to whom? - 01/12/2015 08:17:22 PM 1439 Views
Interesting... - 02/12/2015 08:44:32 AM 1439 Views
I think there needs to be a pretty significant (5+ levels) difference - 02/12/2015 06:25:35 PM 1451 Views
Good job - 05/12/2015 08:43:09 PM 1819 Views
Some questions - 06/12/2015 12:28:46 AM 1296 Views
Can't offer much - 06/12/2015 12:33:29 AM 1623 Views
Cool. Hopefully Dom will see this... - 06/12/2015 08:58:39 PM 1220 Views
Re: Some questions - 06/12/2015 08:06:56 PM 1258 Views
Then there would be some mention of it, yes/ - 06/12/2015 08:56:10 PM 1247 Views
Not at all ... He clearly had a general sense of how it worked - 07/12/2015 03:28:35 AM 1190 Views
Re: Some questions - 07/12/2015 04:19:43 PM 1522 Views
yet we also know that some things are inherently different for men and women - 07/12/2015 08:15:26 PM 1209 Views
it probably has to do with the fact that the characters in the books are also obsessed with strength - 06/12/2015 07:58:20 PM 1317 Views
Sort of. - 06/12/2015 10:30:36 PM 1802 Views
Makes sense - 07/12/2015 12:38:54 AM 1220 Views
Clearly his strength rankings came in mid-series - 07/12/2015 07:39:59 PM 1445 Views
Re: Clearly his strength rankings came in mid-series - 10/12/2015 05:33:27 AM 1259 Views
Probably something along those lines - 10/12/2015 03:44:48 PM 1162 Views
Lifespan question (Spoiler) - 08/12/2015 05:42:41 PM 1206 Views
Moiraine... - 09/12/2015 02:28:50 AM 1287 Views
That too is possible - 09/12/2015 03:02:12 PM 1230 Views
Some random trends/data points - 08/12/2015 08:39:14 PM 1241 Views
Who is the one Sharan? And I'm surprised so many Seanchan have listed strength levels. *NM* - 09/12/2015 02:42:51 AM 814 Views
Re: Who is the one Sharan? And I'm surprised so many Seanchan have listed strength levels. - 09/12/2015 02:31:18 PM 1322 Views
Not sure she can channel, though - 09/12/2015 03:22:17 PM 1146 Views
Re: Not sure she can channel, though - 09/12/2015 04:54:37 PM 1304 Views
duplicate post ignore *NM* - 09/12/2015 02:31:36 PM 737 Views
duplicate post ignore *NM* - 09/12/2015 02:31:55 PM 765 Views
so.... - 09/12/2015 06:10:41 AM 1297 Views
Nope... - 09/12/2015 03:24:07 PM 1285 Views
Yes - 09/12/2015 03:46:30 PM 1208 Views
Some things to consider - 09/12/2015 04:18:50 PM 1224 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 05:43:35 AM 1172 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 06:28:49 AM 1155 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 11:53:51 AM 1198 Views
Sorilea has always been shown as skilled - 10/12/2015 04:10:37 PM 1274 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 04:46:29 PM 1199 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 05:50:17 PM 1194 Views
plenty of weaker ones with notably strong Talents actually - 10/12/2015 06:26:03 PM 1257 Views
This is a flawed list - 11/12/2015 05:14:47 AM 1189 Views
and you are just rationalizing to make your point seem plausible - 11/12/2015 03:10:12 PM 1301 Views
another point about Talents (unrelated to the Strength question) - 11/12/2015 06:06:42 PM 1374 Views
Not really - 11/12/2015 09:09:41 PM 1284 Views
You are trying to force fit thin evidence into a sweeping statement - 11/12/2015 10:13:13 PM 1289 Views
Re: You are trying to force fit thin evidence into a sweeping statement - 12/12/2015 06:46:05 AM 1197 Views
Let's face it a body builder ninja is sort of funny to think about - 12/12/2015 02:55:37 PM 1285 Views
Some quotes - 12/12/2015 01:18:41 AM 1183 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 12/12/2015 03:18:30 AM 1288 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 12/12/2015 06:19:15 AM 1244 Views
Hey ... I have no interest in making you look stupid! - 12/12/2015 03:15:26 PM 1195 Views
Re: Hey ... I have no interest in making you look stupid! - 13/12/2015 11:26:17 AM 1214 Views
Yes, it's a sad thing to realize that this is pretty much the end of the road - 14/12/2015 04:40:50 PM 1171 Views
Re: Yes, it's a sad thing to realize that this is pretty much the end of the road - 15/12/2015 06:01:58 AM 1225 Views
I'm actually perplexed - 15/12/2015 07:19:27 AM 1152 Views
Re: I'm actually perplexed - 17/12/2015 11:36:59 AM 1295 Views
LOL ... Amen! *NM* - 15/12/2015 03:54:55 PM 773 Views
I don't think Elayne was that Strong in TSR - 10/12/2015 04:55:19 PM 1239 Views
Yes and No - 09/12/2015 04:35:48 PM 1172 Views
Re: Yes and No - 09/12/2015 10:41:32 PM 1296 Views
Indeed - 09/12/2015 11:01:03 PM 1245 Views
Ajah Strength Index - 09/12/2015 10:45:29 PM 1226 Views
Greens... - 10/12/2015 12:24:11 AM 1204 Views
Me too honestly - 10/12/2015 03:12:21 AM 1151 Views
Re: Me too honestly - 10/12/2015 04:59:42 AM 1208 Views
Re: Me too honestly - 10/12/2015 04:18:00 PM 1222 Views
Re: Ajah Strength Index - 10/12/2015 05:40:39 AM 1213 Views
I'm not so sure you'd have a chioce - 10/12/2015 04:01:35 PM 1195 Views
Liandrin's 13 - 10/12/2015 09:14:50 PM 1327 Views
Explain - 11/12/2015 05:16:55 AM 1275 Views
Several reasons ... Edited for clarity - 11/12/2015 02:54:58 PM 1375 Views
Bowl of the Winds Circle - 14/12/2015 09:41:33 PM 1229 Views
The Cleansing Circles ... some speculation here - 15/12/2015 05:52:14 PM 1215 Views
If I was Cadsuane I would have done it differently - 15/12/2015 10:01:07 PM 1257 Views
Aran'gar - 16/12/2015 01:11:17 AM 1371 Views
Re: Aran'gar - 16/12/2015 06:54:28 AM 1396 Views
mostly agree - 16/12/2015 06:27:06 PM 1244 Views
Re: Aran'gar - 16/12/2015 06:50:27 PM 1531 Views
Re: Aran'gar - 17/12/2015 10:07:48 AM 1433 Views
We do have some additional clues - 17/12/2015 06:26:20 PM 1430 Views
additional thought - 16/12/2015 06:49:04 PM 1203 Views
Does she know that? - 16/12/2015 06:58:24 PM 1377 Views
I'm speculating of course - 16/12/2015 07:37:10 PM 1259 Views
Strength by National origin - 16/12/2015 09:04:11 PM 1182 Views
Rebels v. Loyalists! - 16/12/2015 10:29:28 PM 1298 Views
Tamra's known hunters - 04/01/2016 06:58:17 PM 1280 Views
Known... - 05/01/2016 01:54:56 AM 1169 Views
Re: Known... - 05/01/2016 02:55:50 AM 1374 Views

Reply to Message