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Re: close enough to not debate about it Sidious Send a noteboard - 05/12/2015 11:29:44 AM

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I tend to agree with you that Rhavin probably is placed too high ... but RJ also made a point of showing that skill was more important than strength, look at Graendal, she's the second weakest Forsaken, but from the books was vastly more accomplished than those of much higher power!

And an another important point is that Graendal's fame came largely from her non OP skills. We knew she treated the minds the OP couldn't touch, and we don't know if the code of ethics of the AS let her use some forms of compulsion benevolently or if this was forbidden and she developed those skills, helped by her psychiatry background, only once a Forsaken.

Rhavin is largely described as a politician/diplomat. It's quite possible he never shone, despite his strength, as a channeler (the same can be said of Balthamel, for instance, and Moghedien). He surely was well trained, and surely he had to lend his Talents to tasks required by the Guild like everybody else, but it doesn't sound like he made a "OP"-focused career, the way Semirhage, Aginor, Lanfear or even Ishamael (as philosopher of the Wheel/Pattern/metaphysician) did. Demandred, like LTT, seems a bit of an unknown.. obviously both were very skilled channelers and it sounds likely they owed their ascension in the Guild to the merit of their service as AS, but as for the details we'll never know.



I do think Graendal should have had a higher strength rating given the comments from the books, or rather, that some of the other Forsaken should have been a bit lower as 3 doesn't seem too low for Graendal so much as Mesaana and Moghedien seem too high from the books. Semirhage was a little of a surprise, but not shocking. Mesaana as a 2 seems at least 2 levels too high and Moghedien seems like she should have been a 5, which also would have fit better with Nynaeve being her equal at one point, but still growing throughout the series without actually hitting her Level 3 potential. Similarly I would have thought the men would have been on at least 1 or even 2 more levels of the ++ ranks. From the books it seemed to me that the men should have been:

Ishamael, Aginor ++1
Demandred ++2
Sammael ++3
Balthamel ++3
Rhavin ++4
Be'lal ++4
Asmodean ++5

But to your point, Graendal clearly achieved her status through her career as a psychiatrist, despite her clear ability with the OP I find it strange that next to Moghedien she is the weakest of the Forsaken in strength.


Except that the books are not subtle at all regarding her prowess as a channeler. I have a strong feeling that she was strong in all five powers as well as unusually skilled with saidar, much like Egwene (I think Semirhage was too). She has no qualms taking on Sammael, Cyndane and Moghedien directly, and during the Last Battle she fought a group of the Light's most powerful channelers all at the same time. In many ways she was shown to be the most dangerous of all the Forsaken. I don't think it makes much of a difference if she was say 20% weaker than Ishamael if she has so much else going for her.

My male list would be...
Ishamael ++1
Demandred, Aginor, M'Hael ++2
Sammael, Rahvin ++3
Be'lal, Balthamel ++4
Asmodean ++5

Also remember that the Collapse took almost a century, and even the most unsuited channelers had plenty of time to learn to become lethal warriors with the Power. Peaceful non-channelers were eventually taking part in Sha-je duels... imagine what channelers were up to. After that they then had a full ten years during the War of Power to hone in on these skills, including a year where only balefire was used. Look at how dangerous Rand and Egwene became after only three years. If one reduced them to 'village people', it would be a dire mistake.


I personally found Graendal to be the most dangerous of the Forsaken by a long shot. Ishamael aside anyway ... but IMO he was something beyond the Forsaken and closer to a dark version of the Dragon and his use of the True Power really does set him apart. I like that her backstory showed us that even before the Collapse she was abrasive and obviously was a person who managed to make the most out of her world view. I suspect she innovated with Compulsion as part of her psychiatric work long before it was known. She's a great example of translating personal knowledge into functional OP ability.

Semirhage was a little of a disappointment to me as a character to be honest, she was set up so well to be a great villain, but I don't think she was well executed. She ended up a little flat IMO. Graendal started out very undefined, but became interesting as the series progressed, and her showing at the Last Battle was impressive, much more so than any of the Forsaken IMO.

Mesaana should have been weaker IMO ... Level 2 just doesn't match up all that well to the books to me. She was more like Moghedien to me, braver certainly, but still kept most of her agenda under deep wraps for fear of being caught out and she was outright dismissed by pretty much all of the others (even her allies didn't seem to think much of her).

Sammael could have been a better villain, but RJ was clearly going more for the action/adventure dueling situations with the early Forsaken (Be'lal and Rhavin weren't much different really).

Demandred was a let down, would have much prefered the Taimdred storyline I think. And ultimately he didn't get enough screen time in the series to be more than a "what's going to happen" situation.

I actually enjoyed Moghedien for the most part, in many ways she felt the most "human" of the Forsaken, her motivations were petty, but understandable and her cowardice was somewhat fun to observe, especially when she was convincing herself that her cowardice was actually just the smart play

Lanfear was pretty bland to me. When she first came on the scene I thought "okay, we have a dark temptress" ... then she just turned out to be a self-deluded psychopath. Wish RJ had given us more of Cyndane's story as I think seeing the mind-trapping from her perspective would have been much more interesting than what we got from Moghedien.

Asmodean I liked as a character, he was straight forward IMO and maybe could have been on his way to some sort of redemption if he hadn't been killed.

Balthamel/Aran'gar was a nice twist, and I found Halima's personality amusing and the interplay between her and the Aes Sedai was mostly well done.

Aginor/Osan'gar, Rhavin and Be'lal weren't really defined enough to care all that much about. Wish they had done more with Dashiva while he was with the Asha'man. RJ hinted at some of the manipulation he had been up to, but didn't show us enough to make it really pay off.


I think if we're honest with ourselves the most powerful of the Forsaken would undoubtedly be Demandred. He's basically a shadow clone of Lews Therin, and he's loaded with intelligence and talents. He was unfortunately wasted as a character. We couldn't see his skill at any point, just blind idiotic hatred for LTT. It's also difficult to respect anyone who needs a circle of 72 and Sakarnen to get something done. I hated Demandred, but even I think he deserved better.

I don't think Ishamael is a skilled channeler at all actually, but the TP is a major advantage. His insanity also gave him an edge, but I'd rather face him than Demandred.

Semirhage was a massive disappointment especially because she is as strong as Lanfear and likely as or more skilled, and yet it came down to a fireball, some threats and balefire. I have huge regrets about the character, especially because we were denied her even at the Cleansing. A Semirhage PoV would have been mind-blowing. I suspect that if she had been fleshed out more she would have been as impressive as Graendal, who was magnificent even as an old hag. Lanfear's display at the docks remains my favourite Forsaken scene of the whole series. All of the Forsaken tea parties after LoC are horrific to read.

Moghedien was more comic relief than anything else, but her interaction with Nynaeve was enjoyable as well as her balefire across the entire harbour. I actually really enjoyed Mesaana and her showdown with Egwene in TAR.

The rest of the Forsaken were all forgettable, and I won't even start on the reincarnations. Apart from Hessalam, I hated reading every moment of their respective arcs.

Wheel of Time board admin
Fan of Lanfear
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Sortable, searchable file of Channelers - 28/11/2015 10:01:57 PM 3173 Views
Outstanding job - 29/11/2015 04:15:17 PM 877 Views
Re: Outstanding job - 29/11/2015 06:53:40 PM 849 Views
Very impressive. Well done. - 29/11/2015 04:41:52 PM 987 Views
Re: Very impressive. Well done. - 29/11/2015 06:54:02 PM 896 Views
Quick Question - 30/11/2015 05:11:17 AM 991 Views
Nope - 30/11/2015 05:44:04 AM 1000 Views
They do say it - 30/11/2015 10:32:48 AM 1179 Views
I added Rand and Lews Therin to the ++1 Strength - 30/11/2015 03:21:00 PM 838 Views
Re: I added Rand and Lews Therin to the ++1 Strength - 01/12/2015 08:02:01 AM 968 Views
Well, it also states that there are gradations within each level too - 01/12/2015 04:26:29 PM 1025 Views
Well maybe - 02/12/2015 06:31:05 AM 955 Views
Here's how I see it: - 02/12/2015 08:34:54 AM 1045 Views
I agree - 02/12/2015 04:22:52 PM 988 Views
Re: I agree - 02/12/2015 05:14:50 PM 1147 Views
It's always been confusing - 02/12/2015 06:00:01 PM 1096 Views
Re: It's always been confusing - 02/12/2015 07:27:11 PM 1116 Views
I wholeheartedly agree - 02/12/2015 08:07:39 PM 916 Views
Re: Here's how I see it: - 02/12/2015 04:46:54 PM 1154 Views
Morgase - 03/12/2015 04:37:47 AM 970 Views
I agree with you on this - 03/12/2015 03:22:22 PM 847 Views
Re: Morgase - 03/12/2015 07:46:59 PM 1112 Views
I didn't realize he was being literal in that comment - 03/12/2015 09:29:52 PM 967 Views
Re: Well maybe - 02/12/2015 03:52:49 PM 1067 Views
Re: Well maybe - 02/12/2015 04:42:37 PM 1130 Views
Probably - 02/12/2015 06:11:42 PM 915 Views
Re: Probably - 02/12/2015 07:38:50 PM 1055 Views
Indeed - 02/12/2015 08:21:07 PM 922 Views
Re: Indeed - 03/12/2015 04:08:03 AM 846 Views
close enough to not debate about it - 03/12/2015 03:47:55 PM 872 Views
Re: close enough to not debate about it - 03/12/2015 04:14:38 PM 873 Views
I think you misunderstand what I'm saying - 03/12/2015 04:43:29 PM 907 Views
Re: I think you misunderstand what I'm saying - 03/12/2015 05:41:17 PM 950 Views
um, no - 03/12/2015 09:24:31 PM 866 Views
You two seem like Egwene's interchangeable defenders to me; it's weird to see you fighting. - 04/12/2015 09:21:23 PM 1067 Views
That's on you... - 04/12/2015 09:46:51 PM 888 Views
We've been arguing on the forums for like 10 years - 06/12/2015 07:36:55 PM 839 Views
It's Cannoli, Darius - 06/12/2015 08:53:06 PM 869 Views
LOL *NM* - 07/12/2015 03:26:40 AM 552 Views
Some points - 05/12/2015 11:14:30 AM 912 Views
Re: close enough to not debate about it - 05/12/2015 11:29:44 AM 937 Views
Re: I added Rand and Lews Therin to the ++1 Strength - 03/12/2015 07:22:15 AM 839 Views
Great job - 30/11/2015 05:45:27 AM 878 Views
Re: Great job - 30/11/2015 03:22:09 PM 857 Views
Made a few adjustments to add some presumed minimum/maximum levels *NM* - 30/11/2015 04:28:13 PM 601 Views
Some questions - 30/11/2015 05:18:00 PM 887 Views
Re: Some questions - 30/11/2015 07:26:29 PM 850 Views
Re: Some questions - 01/12/2015 08:05:01 AM 1051 Views
That's why I added another column to it - 01/12/2015 04:25:04 PM 922 Views
Some more - 01/12/2015 05:24:40 PM 935 Views
Re: Some more - 01/12/2015 07:34:20 PM 985 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 12:27:40 AM 982 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 02:26:53 AM 919 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 08:24:49 AM 923 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 05:54:49 PM 992 Views
Re: Some more - 03/12/2015 04:26:45 AM 827 Views
You said this much better than I did - 03/12/2015 03:53:57 PM 846 Views
I think the men are much too strong - 02/12/2015 09:01:56 AM 1041 Views
Yes - 02/12/2015 03:06:44 PM 897 Views
Re: Yes - 02/12/2015 04:45:20 PM 969 Views
Re: Yes - 02/12/2015 06:39:43 PM 1015 Views
Re: Yes - 03/12/2015 03:56:23 AM 844 Views
I think when characters quoted information from their world it gets muddled - 03/12/2015 04:19:43 PM 880 Views
Shielding - 05/12/2015 11:19:40 AM 846 Views
I feel like there is an RJ quote about this actually - 06/12/2015 06:41:35 PM 823 Views
Re: I feel like there is an RJ quote about this actually - 07/12/2015 12:39:54 PM 856 Views
seriously! - 07/12/2015 04:55:43 PM 877 Views
Who should defer to whom? - 01/12/2015 08:17:22 PM 1060 Views
Interesting... - 02/12/2015 08:44:32 AM 1000 Views
I think there needs to be a pretty significant (5+ levels) difference - 02/12/2015 06:25:35 PM 1049 Views
Good job - 05/12/2015 08:43:09 PM 1229 Views
Some questions - 06/12/2015 12:28:46 AM 894 Views
Can't offer much - 06/12/2015 12:33:29 AM 1084 Views
Cool. Hopefully Dom will see this... - 06/12/2015 08:58:39 PM 784 Views
Re: Some questions - 06/12/2015 08:06:56 PM 831 Views
Then there would be some mention of it, yes/ - 06/12/2015 08:56:10 PM 783 Views
Not at all ... He clearly had a general sense of how it worked - 07/12/2015 03:28:35 AM 800 Views
Re: Some questions - 07/12/2015 04:19:43 PM 1057 Views
it probably has to do with the fact that the characters in the books are also obsessed with strength - 06/12/2015 07:58:20 PM 911 Views
Sort of. - 06/12/2015 10:30:36 PM 1241 Views
Makes sense - 07/12/2015 12:38:54 AM 806 Views
Clearly his strength rankings came in mid-series - 07/12/2015 07:39:59 PM 1020 Views
Re: Clearly his strength rankings came in mid-series - 10/12/2015 05:33:27 AM 851 Views
Probably something along those lines - 10/12/2015 03:44:48 PM 771 Views
Lifespan question (Spoiler) - 08/12/2015 05:42:41 PM 793 Views
Moiraine... - 09/12/2015 02:28:50 AM 856 Views
That too is possible - 09/12/2015 03:02:12 PM 830 Views
Some random trends/data points - 08/12/2015 08:39:14 PM 817 Views
Who is the one Sharan? And I'm surprised so many Seanchan have listed strength levels. *NM* - 09/12/2015 02:42:51 AM 575 Views
Re: Who is the one Sharan? And I'm surprised so many Seanchan have listed strength levels. - 09/12/2015 02:31:18 PM 876 Views
Not sure she can channel, though - 09/12/2015 03:22:17 PM 739 Views
Re: Not sure she can channel, though - 09/12/2015 04:54:37 PM 889 Views
duplicate post ignore *NM* - 09/12/2015 02:31:36 PM 491 Views
duplicate post ignore *NM* - 09/12/2015 02:31:55 PM 527 Views
so.... - 09/12/2015 06:10:41 AM 878 Views
Nope... - 09/12/2015 03:24:07 PM 847 Views
Yes - 09/12/2015 03:46:30 PM 821 Views
Some things to consider - 09/12/2015 04:18:50 PM 809 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 05:43:35 AM 784 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 06:28:49 AM 748 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 11:53:51 AM 786 Views
Sorilea has always been shown as skilled - 10/12/2015 04:10:37 PM 817 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 04:46:29 PM 759 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 05:50:17 PM 781 Views
plenty of weaker ones with notably strong Talents actually - 10/12/2015 06:26:03 PM 876 Views
This is a flawed list - 11/12/2015 05:14:47 AM 781 Views
and you are just rationalizing to make your point seem plausible - 11/12/2015 03:10:12 PM 876 Views
another point about Talents (unrelated to the Strength question) - 11/12/2015 06:06:42 PM 971 Views
Not really - 11/12/2015 09:09:41 PM 818 Views
You are trying to force fit thin evidence into a sweeping statement - 11/12/2015 10:13:13 PM 854 Views
Re: You are trying to force fit thin evidence into a sweeping statement - 12/12/2015 06:46:05 AM 807 Views
Let's face it a body builder ninja is sort of funny to think about - 12/12/2015 02:55:37 PM 894 Views
Some quotes - 12/12/2015 01:18:41 AM 790 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 12/12/2015 03:18:30 AM 843 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 12/12/2015 06:19:15 AM 841 Views
Hey ... I have no interest in making you look stupid! - 12/12/2015 03:15:26 PM 797 Views
Re: Hey ... I have no interest in making you look stupid! - 13/12/2015 11:26:17 AM 812 Views
Yes, it's a sad thing to realize that this is pretty much the end of the road - 14/12/2015 04:40:50 PM 784 Views
Re: Yes, it's a sad thing to realize that this is pretty much the end of the road - 15/12/2015 06:01:58 AM 801 Views
I'm actually perplexed - 15/12/2015 07:19:27 AM 733 Views
Re: I'm actually perplexed - 17/12/2015 11:36:59 AM 839 Views
LOL ... Amen! *NM* - 15/12/2015 03:54:55 PM 533 Views
I don't think Elayne was that Strong in TSR - 10/12/2015 04:55:19 PM 804 Views
Yes and No - 09/12/2015 04:35:48 PM 786 Views
Re: Yes and No - 09/12/2015 10:41:32 PM 857 Views
Indeed - 09/12/2015 11:01:03 PM 807 Views
Ajah Strength Index - 09/12/2015 10:45:29 PM 850 Views
Greens... - 10/12/2015 12:24:11 AM 804 Views
Me too honestly - 10/12/2015 03:12:21 AM 735 Views
Re: Me too honestly - 10/12/2015 04:59:42 AM 799 Views
Re: Me too honestly - 10/12/2015 04:18:00 PM 768 Views
Re: Ajah Strength Index - 10/12/2015 05:40:39 AM 832 Views
I'm not so sure you'd have a chioce - 10/12/2015 04:01:35 PM 755 Views
Liandrin's 13 - 10/12/2015 09:14:50 PM 933 Views
Explain - 11/12/2015 05:16:55 AM 870 Views
Several reasons ... Edited for clarity - 11/12/2015 02:54:58 PM 881 Views
Bowl of the Winds Circle - 14/12/2015 09:41:33 PM 811 Views
The Cleansing Circles ... some speculation here - 15/12/2015 05:52:14 PM 773 Views
If I was Cadsuane I would have done it differently - 15/12/2015 10:01:07 PM 810 Views
Aran'gar - 16/12/2015 01:11:17 AM 938 Views
Re: Aran'gar - 16/12/2015 06:54:28 AM 838 Views
mostly agree - 16/12/2015 06:27:06 PM 830 Views
Re: Aran'gar - 16/12/2015 06:50:27 PM 942 Views
Re: Aran'gar - 17/12/2015 10:07:48 AM 983 Views
We do have some additional clues - 17/12/2015 06:26:20 PM 1006 Views
additional thought - 16/12/2015 06:49:04 PM 764 Views
Does she know that? - 16/12/2015 06:58:24 PM 926 Views
I'm speculating of course - 16/12/2015 07:37:10 PM 831 Views
Strength by National origin - 16/12/2015 09:04:11 PM 771 Views
Rebels v. Loyalists! - 16/12/2015 10:29:28 PM 908 Views
Tamra's known hunters - 04/01/2016 06:58:17 PM 861 Views
Known... - 05/01/2016 01:54:56 AM 726 Views
Re: Known... - 05/01/2016 02:55:50 AM 885 Views

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