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Re: Some questions DomA Send a noteboard - 07/12/2015 04:19:43 PM

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This site has always been obsessed with power levels; it's amusing to see how many comments are on this post. I have never cared very much about power levels, and Dom said he never cared much either, but once we got our hands on the notes and saw all the detail on power rankings, making a list was just too tempting. So I guess the obsession rubbed off on me through Dom...

Glad you got pulled into this. While ultimately meaningless, I always found the OP strength thing a fun little debate to discuss. That said, maybe you can clarify some things we've been debating here:

1) We know a woman at level one more or less equals a man at level ++1, things like skill, etc. being equal. Does this carry on down the scale? Is there functional equivalency between levels 2 and ++2, 11 and 5, 66 and 60, and so on?

2) The female dexterity advantage: I believe there's no way RJ would have needlessly complicated things by making that advantage be on a scale, so that a stronger woman has a larger advantage than a weaker one. I think its a constant boost for all women. Did you see any hints that point to one or the other?

Thanks!



Can't recall anything of the kind in the notes. There were no "academic" discussions of this type about the OP in anything we've seen (or very very rarely, all already revealed by the Companion or Terez). My impression is that the inner logic of the system he had devised was enough for RJ not to need to write all this down, let alone make scales and charts he had no real need of.

He knew by rote the principles (he mastered his whole system more than enough to be able to give answers about the details or the principles to fans "on the go", and he had taken the time to assign a strength level to most female characters as he frequently needed comparisons among women (either for the way AS saw WO, potential recruits etc. or to determine how AS should act among a given group of sisters), and for him it seems it was enough.

The storytelling itself, the dramatic needs, obviously drove the rest of his decisions, which explains in a good part why he was never overly generous with details that might later tie him down. We've rarely seen him (outside the circle of the main players) eliminate Talents for specific sisters or WO, or give them some Talent without a plot-driven need. I think it was a great deal a matter of being cautious. He didn't want to be stuck in a storyline suddenly needing something that he had for no good reason eliminated the possibility of. We can see from the notes that he relatively often kept a few aces up his sleeve, probably for those motives: e.g.: he tried to remain discreet about the strength of a few sisters (or WO, Windfinder, Kin) in each storyline, so he could reveal her as stronger or weaker if the plot demanded it. He did reveal (or eliminated) a few Talents from time to time, but more often he waited until he needed to - and the notes revealed it's pretty much because he didn't much pre-assign Talents.

To be honest, I used to think there were probably files about the OP that Harriet had kept and thus were not part of the boxes sent to the Library. From the little new details offered in the Companion (and make no mistake, Harriet was all too aware of the interest from some fans for this, that's why they made the effort to compile and include every strength level mentioned...you guys were a little harsh when you criticized these efforts to compile from various sources, eliminate most of the conflicts etc. based on the very few discrepancies they have missed...) it's more and more obvious this wasn't really the case, or those files were really old and no longer fully accurate. The"final" system, RJ probably knew by rote. From clues like the way sisters with no names (or occasionally, Ajah) sometime appear in the notes merely as place holders with a strength level, it's pretty apparent that RJ really did make himself a bell curve at some point, and create a pool of women to match the WT effectives. I think he came up with a formula, applied it to get the number of sisters of each level he should have, and that was it. He knew he could also cheat quite a bit even then, without this becoming apparent. I'm not convinced he even kept those calculations somewhere, as its the results that were important to him.

The other thing which should have clued us about the non existence of very elaborate OP notes is that Brandon obviously had nothing of the kind to go by, and he followed in RJ's footsteps of "innovating" as he went along and as his story demanded, with the extremely uneven results that we know, him not being RJ and all. In his work Brandon prefers a wholly different approach, where he sets himself constrictive rules and forces himself to follow them. He believes it makes him more creative in the solutions he finds to fit his system. But he's said in various Q&A and interviews that RJ himself preferred to have as few constraints as possible, beyond the basics explained in the book.

As for your specific question, I've seen nothing, but I believe the way the system works is that the dexterity advantage for women is a constant/general rule and that the male/female scales match if you align them properly. At any level, a man's strength in actual effects is similar/equal to a woman six levels below him. This is why I think the last 6 levels for women don't exist for men, and that both scales only have 66, for a total of 72 levels with the ++ levels.


Personally I don't believe RJ went very far in his elaboration and use of the male scale. I don't think he bothered with a bell curve distribution for the Asha'man, because he didn't assign a strength to each. In fact, he set a strength for very, very few of them. First of all, he probably knew he wouldn't have enough male channelers for the strength distribution to be apparent, and above all he knew that since their interactions aren't based on a strength-derived hierarchy, the reader wouldn't have anywhere as many clues to guess at the character's exact strength. Finally, as men gained strength suddenly, that left him much leeway to make any male player stronger, or even much stronger than he used to be when the plot required it.

RJ probably had some basic rules he followed for the strength of angreal/san'angreal, but again it seems he kept not elaborate notes on that, and mentions of how much a specific object added are very rare (I can only recall a mention that Cadsuane's pushed her in the ++ male levels, and that Moiraine's placed her near the top female levels)

It was all a lot vaguer, a lot more plot-driven than some fans would have liked it to be. Only with RJ alive to complete the missing information for Harriet post-series might you have gotten a lot of new details, as it seems most of the system wasn't written down.




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Sortable, searchable file of Channelers - 28/11/2015 10:01:57 PM 3395 Views
Outstanding job - 29/11/2015 04:15:17 PM 1143 Views
Re: Outstanding job - 29/11/2015 06:53:40 PM 1135 Views
Very impressive. Well done. - 29/11/2015 04:41:52 PM 1276 Views
Re: Very impressive. Well done. - 29/11/2015 06:54:02 PM 1166 Views
Quick Question - 30/11/2015 05:11:17 AM 1257 Views
Nope - 30/11/2015 05:44:04 AM 1271 Views
They do say it - 30/11/2015 10:32:48 AM 1462 Views
I added Rand and Lews Therin to the ++1 Strength - 30/11/2015 03:21:00 PM 1138 Views
Re: I added Rand and Lews Therin to the ++1 Strength - 01/12/2015 08:02:01 AM 1264 Views
Well, it also states that there are gradations within each level too - 01/12/2015 04:26:29 PM 1299 Views
Well maybe - 02/12/2015 06:31:05 AM 1242 Views
Here's how I see it: - 02/12/2015 08:34:54 AM 1315 Views
I agree - 02/12/2015 04:22:52 PM 1299 Views
Re: I agree - 02/12/2015 05:14:50 PM 1426 Views
It's always been confusing - 02/12/2015 06:00:01 PM 1389 Views
Re: It's always been confusing - 02/12/2015 07:27:11 PM 1379 Views
I wholeheartedly agree - 02/12/2015 08:07:39 PM 1188 Views
Re: Here's how I see it: - 02/12/2015 04:46:54 PM 1421 Views
Morgase - 03/12/2015 04:37:47 AM 1274 Views
I agree with you on this - 03/12/2015 03:22:22 PM 1122 Views
Re: Morgase - 03/12/2015 07:46:59 PM 1394 Views
I didn't realize he was being literal in that comment - 03/12/2015 09:29:52 PM 1249 Views
Re: Well maybe - 02/12/2015 03:52:49 PM 1358 Views
Re: Well maybe - 02/12/2015 04:42:37 PM 1425 Views
Probably - 02/12/2015 06:11:42 PM 1204 Views
Re: Probably - 02/12/2015 07:38:50 PM 1317 Views
Indeed - 02/12/2015 08:21:07 PM 1189 Views
Re: Indeed - 03/12/2015 04:08:03 AM 1123 Views
close enough to not debate about it - 03/12/2015 03:47:55 PM 1159 Views
Re: close enough to not debate about it - 03/12/2015 04:14:38 PM 1156 Views
I think you misunderstand what I'm saying - 03/12/2015 04:43:29 PM 1196 Views
Re: I think you misunderstand what I'm saying - 03/12/2015 05:41:17 PM 1235 Views
um, no - 03/12/2015 09:24:31 PM 1146 Views
You two seem like Egwene's interchangeable defenders to me; it's weird to see you fighting. - 04/12/2015 09:21:23 PM 1413 Views
That's on you... - 04/12/2015 09:46:51 PM 1178 Views
We've been arguing on the forums for like 10 years - 06/12/2015 07:36:55 PM 1117 Views
It's Cannoli, Darius - 06/12/2015 08:53:06 PM 1147 Views
LOL *NM* - 07/12/2015 03:26:40 AM 717 Views
Some points - 05/12/2015 11:14:30 AM 1150 Views
Re: close enough to not debate about it - 05/12/2015 11:29:44 AM 1212 Views
Re: I added Rand and Lews Therin to the ++1 Strength - 03/12/2015 07:22:15 AM 1123 Views
Great job - 30/11/2015 05:45:27 AM 1139 Views
Re: Great job - 30/11/2015 03:22:09 PM 1154 Views
Made a few adjustments to add some presumed minimum/maximum levels *NM* - 30/11/2015 04:28:13 PM 775 Views
Some questions - 30/11/2015 05:18:00 PM 1152 Views
Re: Some questions - 30/11/2015 07:26:29 PM 1124 Views
Re: Some questions - 01/12/2015 08:05:01 AM 1319 Views
That's why I added another column to it - 01/12/2015 04:25:04 PM 1195 Views
Some more - 01/12/2015 05:24:40 PM 1223 Views
Re: Some more - 01/12/2015 07:34:20 PM 1245 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 12:27:40 AM 1246 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 02:26:53 AM 1194 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 08:24:49 AM 1216 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 05:54:49 PM 1264 Views
Re: Some more - 03/12/2015 04:26:45 AM 1100 Views
You said this much better than I did - 03/12/2015 03:53:57 PM 1134 Views
I think the men are much too strong - 02/12/2015 09:01:56 AM 1320 Views
Yes - 02/12/2015 03:06:44 PM 1162 Views
Re: Yes - 02/12/2015 04:45:20 PM 1248 Views
Re: Yes - 02/12/2015 06:39:43 PM 1300 Views
Re: Yes - 03/12/2015 03:56:23 AM 1108 Views
I think when characters quoted information from their world it gets muddled - 03/12/2015 04:19:43 PM 1188 Views
Shielding - 05/12/2015 11:19:40 AM 1099 Views
I feel like there is an RJ quote about this actually - 06/12/2015 06:41:35 PM 1093 Views
Re: I feel like there is an RJ quote about this actually - 07/12/2015 12:39:54 PM 1137 Views
seriously! - 07/12/2015 04:55:43 PM 1151 Views
Who should defer to whom? - 01/12/2015 08:17:22 PM 1316 Views
Interesting... - 02/12/2015 08:44:32 AM 1276 Views
I think there needs to be a pretty significant (5+ levels) difference - 02/12/2015 06:25:35 PM 1312 Views
Good job - 05/12/2015 08:43:09 PM 1650 Views
Some questions - 06/12/2015 12:28:46 AM 1176 Views
Can't offer much - 06/12/2015 12:33:29 AM 1480 Views
Cool. Hopefully Dom will see this... - 06/12/2015 08:58:39 PM 1054 Views
Re: Some questions - 06/12/2015 08:06:56 PM 1129 Views
Then there would be some mention of it, yes/ - 06/12/2015 08:56:10 PM 1062 Views
Not at all ... He clearly had a general sense of how it worked - 07/12/2015 03:28:35 AM 1058 Views
Re: Some questions - 07/12/2015 04:19:43 PM 1349 Views
yet we also know that some things are inherently different for men and women - 07/12/2015 08:15:26 PM 1038 Views
it probably has to do with the fact that the characters in the books are also obsessed with strength - 06/12/2015 07:58:20 PM 1181 Views
Sort of. - 06/12/2015 10:30:36 PM 1640 Views
Makes sense - 07/12/2015 12:38:54 AM 1062 Views
Clearly his strength rankings came in mid-series - 07/12/2015 07:39:59 PM 1280 Views
Re: Clearly his strength rankings came in mid-series - 10/12/2015 05:33:27 AM 1139 Views
Probably something along those lines - 10/12/2015 03:44:48 PM 1029 Views
Lifespan question (Spoiler) - 08/12/2015 05:42:41 PM 1057 Views
Moiraine... - 09/12/2015 02:28:50 AM 1105 Views
That too is possible - 09/12/2015 03:02:12 PM 1098 Views
Some random trends/data points - 08/12/2015 08:39:14 PM 1094 Views
Who is the one Sharan? And I'm surprised so many Seanchan have listed strength levels. *NM* - 09/12/2015 02:42:51 AM 747 Views
Re: Who is the one Sharan? And I'm surprised so many Seanchan have listed strength levels. - 09/12/2015 02:31:18 PM 1159 Views
Not sure she can channel, though - 09/12/2015 03:22:17 PM 977 Views
Re: Not sure she can channel, though - 09/12/2015 04:54:37 PM 1172 Views
duplicate post ignore *NM* - 09/12/2015 02:31:36 PM 655 Views
duplicate post ignore *NM* - 09/12/2015 02:31:55 PM 686 Views
so.... - 09/12/2015 06:10:41 AM 1160 Views
Nope... - 09/12/2015 03:24:07 PM 1113 Views
Yes - 09/12/2015 03:46:30 PM 1070 Views
Some things to consider - 09/12/2015 04:18:50 PM 1083 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 05:43:35 AM 1054 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 06:28:49 AM 1005 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 11:53:51 AM 1056 Views
Sorilea has always been shown as skilled - 10/12/2015 04:10:37 PM 1104 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 04:46:29 PM 1017 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 05:50:17 PM 1048 Views
plenty of weaker ones with notably strong Talents actually - 10/12/2015 06:26:03 PM 1136 Views
This is a flawed list - 11/12/2015 05:14:47 AM 1047 Views
and you are just rationalizing to make your point seem plausible - 11/12/2015 03:10:12 PM 1159 Views
another point about Talents (unrelated to the Strength question) - 11/12/2015 06:06:42 PM 1246 Views
Not really - 11/12/2015 09:09:41 PM 1107 Views
You are trying to force fit thin evidence into a sweeping statement - 11/12/2015 10:13:13 PM 1128 Views
Re: You are trying to force fit thin evidence into a sweeping statement - 12/12/2015 06:46:05 AM 1062 Views
Let's face it a body builder ninja is sort of funny to think about - 12/12/2015 02:55:37 PM 1159 Views
Some quotes - 12/12/2015 01:18:41 AM 1030 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 12/12/2015 03:18:30 AM 1117 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 12/12/2015 06:19:15 AM 1107 Views
Hey ... I have no interest in making you look stupid! - 12/12/2015 03:15:26 PM 1072 Views
Re: Hey ... I have no interest in making you look stupid! - 13/12/2015 11:26:17 AM 1089 Views
Yes, it's a sad thing to realize that this is pretty much the end of the road - 14/12/2015 04:40:50 PM 1053 Views
Re: Yes, it's a sad thing to realize that this is pretty much the end of the road - 15/12/2015 06:01:58 AM 1084 Views
I'm actually perplexed - 15/12/2015 07:19:27 AM 1010 Views
Re: I'm actually perplexed - 17/12/2015 11:36:59 AM 1123 Views
LOL ... Amen! *NM* - 15/12/2015 03:54:55 PM 697 Views
I don't think Elayne was that Strong in TSR - 10/12/2015 04:55:19 PM 1093 Views
Yes and No - 09/12/2015 04:35:48 PM 1044 Views
Re: Yes and No - 09/12/2015 10:41:32 PM 1137 Views
Indeed - 09/12/2015 11:01:03 PM 1079 Views
Ajah Strength Index - 09/12/2015 10:45:29 PM 1104 Views
Greens... - 10/12/2015 12:24:11 AM 1071 Views
Me too honestly - 10/12/2015 03:12:21 AM 1014 Views
Re: Me too honestly - 10/12/2015 04:59:42 AM 1053 Views
Re: Me too honestly - 10/12/2015 04:18:00 PM 1066 Views
Re: Ajah Strength Index - 10/12/2015 05:40:39 AM 1072 Views
I'm not so sure you'd have a chioce - 10/12/2015 04:01:35 PM 1034 Views
Liandrin's 13 - 10/12/2015 09:14:50 PM 1210 Views
Explain - 11/12/2015 05:16:55 AM 1145 Views
Several reasons ... Edited for clarity - 11/12/2015 02:54:58 PM 1226 Views
Bowl of the Winds Circle - 14/12/2015 09:41:33 PM 1059 Views
The Cleansing Circles ... some speculation here - 15/12/2015 05:52:14 PM 1046 Views
If I was Cadsuane I would have done it differently - 15/12/2015 10:01:07 PM 1069 Views
Aran'gar - 16/12/2015 01:11:17 AM 1221 Views
Re: Aran'gar - 16/12/2015 06:54:28 AM 1238 Views
mostly agree - 16/12/2015 06:27:06 PM 1111 Views
Re: Aran'gar - 16/12/2015 06:50:27 PM 1367 Views
Re: Aran'gar - 17/12/2015 10:07:48 AM 1271 Views
We do have some additional clues - 17/12/2015 06:26:20 PM 1270 Views
additional thought - 16/12/2015 06:49:04 PM 1052 Views
Does she know that? - 16/12/2015 06:58:24 PM 1187 Views
I'm speculating of course - 16/12/2015 07:37:10 PM 1106 Views
Strength by National origin - 16/12/2015 09:04:11 PM 1059 Views
Rebels v. Loyalists! - 16/12/2015 10:29:28 PM 1182 Views
Tamra's known hunters - 04/01/2016 06:58:17 PM 1148 Views
Known... - 05/01/2016 01:54:56 AM 1011 Views
Re: Known... - 05/01/2016 02:55:50 AM 1182 Views

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