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Re: Some things to consider Sidious Send a noteboard - 12/12/2015 06:19:15 AM


It's based on every channeler stronger than Moiraine.
Every channeler? What particular Talents or skills have Terava, Someryn, Mesaana, Tamela, Viendre, Meilyn, Kerene and Edarra shown? We've spent a reasonable amount of time around some of these women. And I'm not saying they are devoid of skill or Talents, but what particular ones of theirs makes you say everyone above Moiraine is very skilled and has many Talents?

So out of the 37 people who are stronger than Moiraine you pick 8 who might not have Talents. Remember that they can all Travel, so you are already wrong about that whole list. So 20% of the people above Moiraine have no verifiable other Talent, and 80% do.



The fact that he was a Forsaken is some indication, no? The 13 that survived were the best, for the most part, with internal gradations. You don't get to be Forsaken if you have no skill.

The 13 were at a regional meeting, some of them were the best, others were not. But I get your point. There is no doubt that Aginor was highly useful to the Shadow.


Any of the Red Belted Kinswomen, Suana, Dagdara... need I keep on?

Oh yes, the list of women who can "Heal". The type that makes Moghedien giggle like a paint mixer, leaving the patient half dead for weeks afterwards.


And the major character thing isn't a cop out. Because if I were to restrict my sample to that, I can also claim that no one who is ugly can channel great amounts of the OP. Looking at just the same characters you are, can we conclude that either being a strong channeler makes you good looking, or only good looking people can channel large amounts of the OP.

Well I do have a problem with so many of the main characters being good looking, so thanks for mentioning it. There are a lot of very beautiful channelers and average looking ones, but very few ugly ones. Hesselam is almost the only truly ugly person of any kind in this series.


I'll match your meaningless caveat too. I see a trend, not a rule...

Sure, if you want to be mean, then by all means. Considering the OP affects aging and vitality so much it's a possibility I'm open to.


What is the connection to strength in the OP, here? First of all, only 9 sisters in the entire Rebel camp could make Cuendillar. If the majority were Yellow, the sample is still too small to make conclusions. But even ignoring that, who said these Yellows were strong in OP strength?

Strength in a flow, strength in the Power - it's all in the same vane because it's innate power without practice, as you claim. Anyway you have gone on about sample size before and you're right, but then we shouldn't discuss anything in the series. There are maybe a few thousand channelers and far fewer who we know about, we know jack about the Power with such a small sample.


The very best at making Cuendillar, Egwene and Leane, have little to no Healing ability. The Companion even says this outright:
Although Leane had fairly small ability with Healing, she seemed to have the greatest ability with metals after Egwene

So what point have you proven?


What point have you proven...? That not all channelers have all Talents? Congratulations, I'm sure that's a theory that no one has. Of course Leane is stronger than most women, and has a Talent, so there you go.


Precisely. The only thing that mattered was practice. Not some innate ability. Talent lets you skip the need for practice, but barring that, skill only comes from practice, not as a side benefit of being stronger in the OP.

So Nynaeve has not been useful as a channeler in this series with her minimal practice and training? Apart from Healing.



Only when the battle was restricted to a pure strength duel. She copied Egwene's weave against Amico, and Modhedien's weave to stop it. That's all. There was no extraordinary skill at play here.

I thought the Forsaken were extraordinary. Why didn't Alivia get into a "pure strength" duel with Cyndane?



This is both ludicrous and false. Cadsuane did not say "so you see and copy". Cadsuane says:

“So you watch,” she said to Alivia.


Then why does Cadsuane mention it? Does she think that Alivia walks beside her and doesn't see anything. How moronic is that of Cadsuane?


There is no indication that Cadsuane is surprised that someone who watches can copy a weave.

And yet Cadsuane refuses to teach Alivia and channels openly around her. By all indications she finds it unlikely that a wilder will be able to pick up on her weaves.


Uhh.. WHAT? Are you insane? Cyndane used her superior skill to not just match a woman much much stronger than her, she handily beat her. Alivia ended that fight with her hand broken and burned to the bone. Even if Alivia had held her own, it doesn't mean strength is "a type of skill". Because if Alivia had Cyndane's skill, she'd have finished her easily.

You're having a seizure instead of seeing it from the other side. Cyndane is highly powerful and skilled with saidar. Alivia is only strong. By using an angreal she can survive her encounter with Cyndane. Therefore a strength boost provided her with 'skill'. I agree that Cyndane would have died if Alivia had her skill, but how pointless is that assertion. That's like wishing that Nynaeve had Graendal's skill.


Even with a sa'angreal Egwene would be no better at Healing. They use angreal because you can use more of the OP that way, and also because you get less tired if strength comes from an angreal rather than yourself.

There is no evidence to back that up. People who have no Talent for travelling use an angreal and can then Travel. Access to greater levels of saidar may provide small bridges to augment weak Talents. We have seen Verin use an angreal to improve her chances with a form of Compulsion. I'm not saying that if Egwene used Vora's wand she would be Semirhage, because you and Darius always take my examples and put them to the extremes to make me look stupid, but maybe with it she could Heal more than a bruise. Samitsu can Heal as well as a full circle... more saidar, more ability, and also proof that if you cannot Heal you can link, and then suddenly you will have a Talent with Healing (and Travelling).


There's also memories leaking from Lews Therin, there, completely removing Rand as a reasonable candidate for this discussion.

Okay the LTT card... fine then.
Sorilea stiffened at the comment, but let it go. She rewove the ward against listening, then paused, and placed the globes of light in front of Semirhage’s eyes as well. Yes, she was weak in the Power, but she was a very quick learner.

I thought this was "standard" and easy among channelers?

Wheel of Time board admin
Fan of Lanfear
This message last edited by Sidious on 12/12/2015 at 06:27:53 AM
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Sortable, searchable file of Channelers darius_sedai - 28/11/2015 10:01:57 PM 3615 Views
Outstanding job Sidious - 29/11/2015 04:15:17 PM 1348 Views
Re: Outstanding job darius_sedai - 29/11/2015 06:53:40 PM 1321 Views
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Re: Very impressive. Well done. darius_sedai - 29/11/2015 06:54:02 PM 1368 Views
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They do say it Sidious - 30/11/2015 10:32:48 AM 1678 Views
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Re: I added Rand and Lews Therin to the ++1 Strength Sidious - 01/12/2015 08:02:01 AM 1483 Views
Well, it also states that there are gradations within each level too darius_sedai - 01/12/2015 04:26:29 PM 1512 Views
Well maybe Sidious - 02/12/2015 06:31:05 AM 1502 Views
Here's how I see it: fionwe1987 - 02/12/2015 08:34:54 AM 1510 Views
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Re: It's always been confusing DomA - 02/12/2015 07:27:11 PM 1613 Views
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Re: Here's how I see it: DomA - 02/12/2015 04:46:54 PM 1685 Views
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Re: Morgase DomA - 03/12/2015 07:46:59 PM 1660 Views
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Re: I didn't realize he was being literal in that comment DomA - 04/12/2015 08:41:51 PM 1388 Views
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Re: Well maybe darius_sedai - 02/12/2015 03:52:49 PM 1609 Views
Re: Well maybe Sidious - 02/12/2015 04:42:37 PM 1659 Views
Probably darius_sedai - 02/12/2015 06:11:42 PM 1416 Views
Re: Probably DomA - 02/12/2015 07:38:50 PM 1541 Views
Indeed darius_sedai - 02/12/2015 08:21:07 PM 1416 Views
Re: Indeed Sidious - 03/12/2015 04:08:03 AM 1359 Views
close enough to not debate about it darius_sedai - 03/12/2015 03:47:55 PM 1366 Views
Re: close enough to not debate about it fionwe1987 - 03/12/2015 04:14:38 PM 1372 Views
I think you misunderstand what I'm saying darius_sedai - 03/12/2015 04:43:29 PM 1435 Views
Re: I think you misunderstand what I'm saying fionwe1987 - 03/12/2015 05:41:17 PM 1440 Views
um, no darius_sedai - 03/12/2015 09:24:31 PM 1358 Views
You two seem like Egwene's interchangeable defenders to me; it's weird to see you fighting. Cannoli - 04/12/2015 09:21:23 PM 1710 Views
That's on you... fionwe1987 - 04/12/2015 09:46:51 PM 1383 Views
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It's Cannoli, Darius fionwe1987 - 06/12/2015 08:53:06 PM 1350 Views
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Re: close enough to not debate about it Sidious - 05/12/2015 11:29:44 AM 1404 Views
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Great job fionwe1987 - 30/11/2015 05:45:27 AM 1375 Views
Re: Great job darius_sedai - 30/11/2015 03:22:09 PM 1373 Views
Made a few adjustments to add some presumed minimum/maximum levels *NM* darius_sedai - 30/11/2015 04:28:13 PM 900 Views
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Re: Some questions darius_sedai - 30/11/2015 07:26:29 PM 1353 Views
Re: Some questions Sidious - 01/12/2015 08:05:01 AM 1543 Views
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Some more fionwe1987 - 01/12/2015 05:24:40 PM 1445 Views
Re: Some more darius_sedai - 01/12/2015 07:34:20 PM 1471 Views
Re: Some more fionwe1987 - 02/12/2015 12:27:40 AM 1481 Views
Re: Some more darius_sedai - 02/12/2015 02:26:53 AM 1407 Views
Re: Some more fionwe1987 - 02/12/2015 08:24:49 AM 1461 Views
Re: Some more darius_sedai - 02/12/2015 05:54:49 PM 1488 Views
Re: Some more Sidious - 03/12/2015 04:26:45 AM 1293 Views
You said this much better than I did darius_sedai - 03/12/2015 03:53:57 PM 1356 Views
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Yes fionwe1987 - 02/12/2015 03:06:44 PM 1350 Views
Re: Yes Sidious - 02/12/2015 04:45:20 PM 1471 Views
Re: Yes darius_sedai - 02/12/2015 06:39:43 PM 1520 Views
Re: Yes Sidious - 03/12/2015 03:56:23 AM 1310 Views
I think when characters quoted information from their world it gets muddled darius_sedai - 03/12/2015 04:19:43 PM 1426 Views
Shielding Sidious - 05/12/2015 11:19:40 AM 1273 Views
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Re: I feel like there is an RJ quote about this actually Sidious - 07/12/2015 12:39:54 PM 1364 Views
seriously! darius_sedai - 07/12/2015 04:55:43 PM 1349 Views
Who should defer to whom? darius_sedai - 01/12/2015 08:17:22 PM 1507 Views
Interesting... fionwe1987 - 02/12/2015 08:44:32 AM 1508 Views
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Good job Terez - 05/12/2015 08:43:09 PM 1875 Views
Some questions fionwe1987 - 06/12/2015 12:28:46 AM 1369 Views
Can't offer much Terez - 06/12/2015 12:33:29 AM 1703 Views
Cool. Hopefully Dom will see this... fionwe1987 - 06/12/2015 08:58:39 PM 1292 Views
Re: Some questions darius_sedai - 06/12/2015 08:06:56 PM 1320 Views
Then there would be some mention of it, yes/ fionwe1987 - 06/12/2015 08:56:10 PM 1324 Views
Not at all ... He clearly had a general sense of how it worked darius_sedai - 07/12/2015 03:28:35 AM 1251 Views
Re: Some questions DomA - 07/12/2015 04:19:43 PM 1587 Views
yet we also know that some things are inherently different for men and women darius_sedai - 07/12/2015 08:15:26 PM 1285 Views
it probably has to do with the fact that the characters in the books are also obsessed with strength darius_sedai - 06/12/2015 07:58:20 PM 1391 Views
Sort of. Terez - 06/12/2015 10:30:36 PM 1868 Views
Makes sense fionwe1987 - 07/12/2015 12:38:54 AM 1292 Views
Clearly his strength rankings came in mid-series darius_sedai - 07/12/2015 07:39:59 PM 1515 Views
Re: Clearly his strength rankings came in mid-series Sidious - 10/12/2015 05:33:27 AM 1337 Views
Probably something along those lines darius_sedai - 10/12/2015 03:44:48 PM 1237 Views
Lifespan question (Spoiler) darius_sedai - 08/12/2015 05:42:41 PM 1275 Views
Moiraine... fionwe1987 - 09/12/2015 02:28:50 AM 1354 Views
That too is possible darius_sedai - 09/12/2015 03:02:12 PM 1298 Views
Some random trends/data points darius_sedai - 08/12/2015 08:39:14 PM 1301 Views
Who is the one Sharan? And I'm surprised so many Seanchan have listed strength levels. *NM* fionwe1987 - 09/12/2015 02:42:51 AM 838 Views
Re: Who is the one Sharan? And I'm surprised so many Seanchan have listed strength levels. darius_sedai - 09/12/2015 02:31:18 PM 1391 Views
Not sure she can channel, though fionwe1987 - 09/12/2015 03:22:17 PM 1204 Views
Re: Not sure she can channel, though darius_sedai - 09/12/2015 04:54:37 PM 1381 Views
duplicate post ignore *NM* darius_sedai - 09/12/2015 02:31:36 PM 758 Views
duplicate post ignore *NM* darius_sedai - 09/12/2015 02:31:55 PM 784 Views
so.... Sidious - 09/12/2015 06:10:41 AM 1372 Views
Nope... fionwe1987 - 09/12/2015 03:24:07 PM 1354 Views
Yes Sidious - 09/12/2015 03:46:30 PM 1277 Views
Some things to consider fionwe1987 - 09/12/2015 04:18:50 PM 1280 Views
Re: Some things to consider Sidious - 10/12/2015 05:43:35 AM 1239 Views
Re: Some things to consider fionwe1987 - 10/12/2015 06:28:49 AM 1220 Views
Re: Some things to consider Sidious - 10/12/2015 11:53:51 AM 1271 Views
Sorilea has always been shown as skilled darius_sedai - 10/12/2015 04:10:37 PM 1346 Views
Re: Some things to consider fionwe1987 - 10/12/2015 04:46:29 PM 1267 Views
Re: Some things to consider Sidious - 10/12/2015 05:50:17 PM 1254 Views
plenty of weaker ones with notably strong Talents actually darius_sedai - 10/12/2015 06:26:03 PM 1327 Views
This is a flawed list Sidious - 11/12/2015 05:14:47 AM 1247 Views
and you are just rationalizing to make your point seem plausible darius_sedai - 11/12/2015 03:10:12 PM 1377 Views
another point about Talents (unrelated to the Strength question) darius_sedai - 11/12/2015 06:06:42 PM 1445 Views
Not really Sidious - 11/12/2015 09:09:41 PM 1358 Views
You are trying to force fit thin evidence into a sweeping statement darius_sedai - 11/12/2015 10:13:13 PM 1363 Views
Re: You are trying to force fit thin evidence into a sweeping statement Sidious - 12/12/2015 06:46:05 AM 1254 Views
Let's face it a body builder ninja is sort of funny to think about darius_sedai - 12/12/2015 02:55:37 PM 1356 Views
Some quotes fionwe1987 - 12/12/2015 01:18:41 AM 1247 Views
Re: Some things to consider fionwe1987 - 12/12/2015 03:18:30 AM 1341 Views
Re: Some things to consider Sidious - 12/12/2015 06:19:15 AM 1326 Views
Hey ... I have no interest in making you look stupid! darius_sedai - 12/12/2015 03:15:26 PM 1253 Views
Re: Hey ... I have no interest in making you look stupid! Sidious - 13/12/2015 11:26:17 AM 1290 Views
Yes, it's a sad thing to realize that this is pretty much the end of the road darius_sedai - 14/12/2015 04:40:50 PM 1244 Views
Re: Yes, it's a sad thing to realize that this is pretty much the end of the road Sidious - 15/12/2015 06:01:58 AM 1288 Views
I'm actually perplexed fionwe1987 - 15/12/2015 07:19:27 AM 1229 Views
Re: I'm actually perplexed Sidious - 17/12/2015 11:36:59 AM 1364 Views
LOL ... Amen! *NM* darius_sedai - 15/12/2015 03:54:55 PM 796 Views
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Yes and No darius_sedai - 09/12/2015 04:35:48 PM 1235 Views
Re: Yes and No DomA - 09/12/2015 10:41:32 PM 1365 Views
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Greens... fionwe1987 - 10/12/2015 12:24:11 AM 1265 Views
Me too honestly darius_sedai - 10/12/2015 03:12:21 AM 1213 Views
Re: Me too honestly fionwe1987 - 10/12/2015 04:59:42 AM 1261 Views
Re: Me too honestly darius_sedai - 10/12/2015 04:18:00 PM 1300 Views
Re: Ajah Strength Index Sidious - 10/12/2015 05:40:39 AM 1282 Views
I'm not so sure you'd have a chioce darius_sedai - 10/12/2015 04:01:35 PM 1260 Views
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Explain Sidious - 11/12/2015 05:16:55 AM 1340 Views
Several reasons ... Edited for clarity darius_sedai - 11/12/2015 02:54:58 PM 1439 Views
Bowl of the Winds Circle darius_sedai - 14/12/2015 09:41:33 PM 1298 Views
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Aran'gar fionwe1987 - 16/12/2015 01:11:17 AM 1437 Views
Re: Aran'gar Sidious - 16/12/2015 06:54:28 AM 1464 Views
mostly agree darius_sedai - 16/12/2015 06:27:06 PM 1321 Views
Re: Aran'gar fionwe1987 - 16/12/2015 06:50:27 PM 1601 Views
Re: Aran'gar Sidious - 17/12/2015 10:07:48 AM 1507 Views
We do have some additional clues darius_sedai - 17/12/2015 06:26:20 PM 1499 Views
additional thought darius_sedai - 16/12/2015 06:49:04 PM 1276 Views
Does she know that? fionwe1987 - 16/12/2015 06:58:24 PM 1447 Views
I'm speculating of course darius_sedai - 16/12/2015 07:37:10 PM 1326 Views
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Rebels v. Loyalists! darius_sedai - 16/12/2015 10:29:28 PM 1356 Views
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Known... fionwe1987 - 05/01/2016 01:54:56 AM 1228 Views
Re: Known... darius_sedai - 05/01/2016 02:55:50 AM 1451 Views
If you want to use the file you might want to grab it now before the site shuts down *NM* darius_sedai - 18/09/2016 06:45:48 PM 703 Views
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