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Rand the psycho? Datakim Send a noteboard - 06/01/2010 02:53:30 AM
I was wondering something.

In TGS, Rand balefires Graendals entire palace, killing not just her(probably) but also everyone who serves her. He also burns all those threads backwards a bit. During this event, both Min and Nynaeve are absolutely horrified at what Rand just did. Nynaeve actually is so disturbed that she actually goes to Cadsuane and becomes all submissive in the hope that Cadsuane will change the course Rand has taken. Surely what Rand did was a horrific evil on a grand scale. A true atrocity.

Or is it?

I was thinking about this and it occurred to me to wonder why exactly are Min and Nynaeve so absolutely horrified. Why is Rand so convinced that he has damned himself. Why does Min think that what happened must be destroying Rand inside. I mean think about it, what actually happened there?

We KNOW from several sources (LTT, the boy, forsaken scenes) that all those people in the fortress other than Graendal were just mindless drones. Min and Nynaeve know it too since Rand explains it to them. They were essentially already dead. Yes, they might have been moving around, their lungs breathing, their hearts pumping. But we can say the same for that little girl Rand tried to resurrect with Callandor. Is it then murder when Rand pulled back his flows and let the girls body die?

Without awareness and free will, without intelligence and sentience, things which Graendal has taken away from them, can the people in the palace truly be said to be alive?

And if they cannot, does that not mean that the ONLY person that was truly ALIVE in that place was Graendal herself? A monster by any measure. So really, is what Rand did evil at all? Did any innocent civilian actually die?

Now yes, Rand does use balefire and we know its dangerous. Infact, perhaps that is the real reason for the horror that Min and Nynaeve feel. But really does that make sense either? How many people were in that palace? A hundred? Two? Lets go for broke and say Graendal had three hundred people in his palace. Now we know that Rand knows the damage balefire causes, he does not yet want to destroy the pattern at this point so we can assume that he regulated the amount of power used to only burn the people back as little as possible. Let's say 15 minutes.

Now you could argue that 15 minutes is too little since Rand used the Choedan Kal itself to do the job. However I would argue that the reason he had to use the CK was to erase the entire palace at once and not to burn the people back days or weeks. Remember that at this point Rand still wants to save the pattern so he would not do this.

So we have 300 people balefired with each one burned back in time 15 minutes. This does produce a reaction. Min describes it as reality warping around them. Perhaps this then is the atrocity here. Rand actually damages the pattern itself, endangering everything. He comes very close to destroying the world here.

Or does he?

If all it took to damage the pattern in a way that was in any way significant was to balefire 300 people back 15 minutes, then why has Moridin not done that? I mean he could just travel to some obscure village or town and start blasting away. Given how strong we know Moridin is, he could easily balefire 300 people. Heck, there are a lot of villages so if Moridin wanted he could probably balefire more than 300 people easily. In a few weeks he could probably balefire 3000. Or more! And each one more than 15 minutes. And these would be people who would actually be alive and sentient. With more active threads than the drones in Graendals palace.

We know why the rest of the forsaken don't do this. They want to rule and as such don't want the pattern to unravel. But we KNOW that Moridin is different. During the dream-meet he openly admits that the DO is going to unmake the pattern, that he knows it and that he thinks this is a really good thing.

It seems to me than that when we take the fact that Moridin does not do this together with other facts such as Rands comment that he has seen many thousands burned from the pattern together with the fact that apparently during the War of power, balefire was used on entire cities, it seems to me that erasing 300 drones who probably had very little influence on anything, and one forsaken, would do very little real damage to the pattern. To have a significant effect would probably require tens of thousands of people balefired or Moridin would constantly be out there secretly balefiring people as fast as he could.

Nothing else makes sense to me. Yes, Min does have a reaction that is written as pretty freaky but we have nothing to compare this reaction to. It is entirely subjective to her. For all we know this is actually the pattern going "Meh!" because what Rand did was utterly insignificant.

So really, why is it that Min and Nynaeve are so horrified? What was so terrible about what Rand did? It may not exactly be a thing of sunshine and little dancing kittens but I would say that many things Rand has done before have actually been worse. Rand was correct to do what he did to get rid of Graendal and Min and Nynaeve are just being fools.

I don't deny that Rand does go psycho in TGS, and that many of the things such as threatening to rain fire on the borderlanders show that he has totally lost it. But is this one specific act, balefiring Graendals palace, truly as wrong as it is suggested? I think not.
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Rand the psycho? - 06/01/2010 02:53:30 AM 1661 Views
I cannot follow your assumptions. - 06/01/2010 04:07:33 AM 1064 Views
On Balefire - 06/01/2010 04:43:18 AM 1064 Views
Good point - 06/01/2010 05:04:26 AM 1109 Views
On the nature of BaleFire - 06/01/2010 03:32:25 PM 999 Views
Re: I cannot follow your assumptions. - 06/01/2010 04:59:12 AM 895 Views
Wait! - 06/01/2010 05:10:33 AM 1020 Views
Re: Wait! - 06/01/2010 05:20:02 AM 926 Views
Re: Wait! - 06/01/2010 05:58:00 AM 898 Views
Re: Wait! - 06/01/2010 11:46:13 AM 848 Views
Re: Wait! - 06/01/2010 03:55:01 PM 856 Views
I disagree - 06/01/2010 05:42:44 PM 804 Views
Re: I disagree - 06/01/2010 06:41:08 PM 836 Views
Re: I disagree - 07/01/2010 04:42:40 AM 817 Views
I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 06/01/2010 07:30:56 AM 972 Views
Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 06/01/2010 03:32:24 PM 878 Views
Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 06/01/2010 09:52:47 PM 947 Views
Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 06/01/2010 11:19:56 PM 855 Views
Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 07/01/2010 12:21:50 AM 923 Views
Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 07/01/2010 12:56:26 AM 857 Views
Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 07/01/2010 01:46:16 AM 915 Views
I agree with Templar - 09/01/2010 04:36:20 PM 839 Views
Re: I cannot follow your assumptions. - 06/01/2010 07:57:54 AM 958 Views
Rand crossed a line - 06/01/2010 02:36:42 PM 962 Views
Re: Rand crossed a line - 06/01/2010 04:16:12 PM 881 Views
But... - 06/01/2010 04:34:02 PM 992 Views
Re: But... - 06/01/2010 06:14:25 PM 802 Views
Doesn't Balefire remove your thread from the Pattern permanently? - 06/01/2010 02:55:38 PM 942 Views
No, RJ stated balefired people can be reborn. *NM* - 06/01/2010 03:26:00 PM 454 Views
But not in this turning of the Wheel. So they'd miss out on MANY lifetimes. - 06/01/2010 05:46:04 PM 872 Views
What? - 06/01/2010 06:20:56 PM 883 Views
Where did you get that? - 06/01/2010 07:09:38 PM 836 Views
No, balefire just kills you backwards in time. It is not super-death. *NM* - 06/01/2010 09:58:18 PM 481 Views
LOL ... super-death! - 06/01/2010 11:59:31 PM 819 Views
Hah! *NM* - 07/01/2010 12:06:07 AM 471 Views
It makes me think of History of the World Part 1 - 07/01/2010 12:53:20 AM 832 Views
It makes me think of History of the World Part 1 - 07/01/2010 12:53:33 AM 806 Views
Yes it was. - 06/01/2010 06:51:15 PM 932 Views
Re: Yes it was. - 06/01/2010 07:16:14 PM 852 Views
Re: Yes it was. - 06/01/2010 08:58:40 PM 895 Views
Re: Yes it was. - 06/01/2010 10:47:11 PM 888 Views
let me ask the question in a different way - 06/01/2010 11:26:43 PM 894 Views
Re: let me ask the question in a different way - 06/01/2010 11:40:56 PM 885 Views
actually that quote supports my thoughts - 06/01/2010 11:50:40 PM 911 Views
Re: actually that quote supports my thoughts - 07/01/2010 12:10:07 AM 839 Views
Meh. I just think advocating mass-murder is the opposite direction RJ meant for this to take. - 07/01/2010 12:00:44 AM 936 Views
Sigh. What mass murder? - 07/01/2010 12:15:01 AM 786 Views
you are kidding right? - 07/01/2010 12:19:58 AM 895 Views
In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 03:14:32 PM 861 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 03:57:43 PM 870 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 07:13:21 PM 886 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 07:52:24 PM 830 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 08:56:43 PM 898 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 09:26:01 PM 846 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 09:30:45 PM 783 Views
Personally I'm kind of sick of Rand being the only person killing FS! - 07/01/2010 09:42:57 PM 953 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 09:56:02 PM 889 Views
OK I'm sorry but this gets a huge ROFL :lol: - 07/01/2010 10:30:19 PM 874 Views
Re: OK I'm sorry but this gets a huge ROFL :lol: - 08/01/2010 01:53:25 PM 842 Views
Re: OK I'm sorry but this gets a huge ROFL :lol: - 08/01/2010 02:56:41 PM 877 Views
What might work... - 08/01/2010 12:35:17 PM 783 Views
Re: What might work... - 08/01/2010 11:38:09 PM 808 Views
Yes. Anakin Skywalker all over again - 06/01/2010 11:01:02 PM 967 Views
Meh - 06/01/2010 11:30:24 PM 805 Views
The worst part about his atrocities is his rationalizing them! - 06/01/2010 11:33:32 PM 814 Views
Re: The worst part about his atrocities is his rationalizing them! - 06/01/2010 11:50:37 PM 894 Views
Re: The worst part about his atrocities is his rationalizing them! - 06/01/2010 11:55:03 PM 854 Views
I do have to guiltily say, though, that if Rand had balefired the Seanchan and THEN became good... - 07/01/2010 12:03:20 AM 861 Views
*laughs behind hand* - 07/01/2010 12:05:54 AM 939 Views
Re: The worst part about his atrocities is his rationalizing them! - 07/01/2010 12:23:11 AM 802 Views
I don't think Rand or LTT (who has/have) little capacity for Healing - 07/01/2010 12:52:25 AM 812 Views
Re: I don't think Rand or LTT (who has/have) little capacity for Healing - 07/01/2010 01:24:32 AM 878 Views
Re: I don't think Rand or LTT (who has/have) little capacity for Healing - 07/01/2010 03:33:52 PM 826 Views
Re: I don't think Rand or LTT (who has/have) little capacity for Healing - 07/01/2010 04:28:18 PM 966 Views
right cause all Generals are so well versed in medical conditions - 07/01/2010 09:44:09 PM 917 Views
Nice way to avoid the argument. - 07/01/2010 10:00:17 PM 865 Views
I'm just done talking in circles. You seem to think that because people - 07/01/2010 11:53:05 PM 905 Views
I concede - 07/01/2010 01:09:11 AM 804 Views
You weren't wrong overall, but there were some serious flaws in your reasoning. - 07/01/2010 02:43:17 AM 912 Views
Tee hee. - 07/01/2010 05:28:52 AM 876 Views
Morals are subjective anyhow, - 07/01/2010 06:23:09 AM 894 Views
Re: Morals are subjective anyhow, - 07/01/2010 03:23:59 PM 814 Views
I have religious beliefs and that is an absurd contention - 09/01/2010 12:00:02 AM 894 Views
Re: I have religious beliefs and that is an absurd contention - 09/01/2010 05:56:16 PM 1053 Views
Re: I have religious beliefs and that is an absurd contention - 18/01/2010 01:00:23 PM 1187 Views
Your assertions weaken your overall argument. - 11/01/2010 04:47:10 PM 785 Views
Re: Your assertions weaken your overall argument. - 18/01/2010 12:49:26 PM 830 Views

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