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I cannot follow your assumptions. Fanatic-Templar Send a noteboard - 06/01/2010 04:07:33 AM
Now yes, Rand does use balefire and we know its dangerous. Infact, perhaps that is the real reason for the horror that Min and Nynaeve feel. But really does that make sense either? How many people were in that palace? A hundred? Two? Lets go for broke and say Graendal had three hundred people in his palace. Now we know that Rand knows the damage balefire causes, he does not yet want to destroy the pattern at this point so we can assume that he regulated the amount of power used to only burn the people back as little as possible. Let's say 15 minutes.

Now you could argue that 15 minutes is too little since Rand used the Choedan Kal itself to do the job. However I would argue that the reason he had to use the CK was to erase the entire palace at once and not to burn the people back days or weeks. Remember that at this point Rand still wants to save the pattern so he would not do this.


I am unaware that it is possible to consciously adjust the potency of balefire. Not saying it's impossible, just asking for your source in this assertion. Thus far, everything we've seen leads us to believe that the amount of balefire used is proportional to its potency - and there was more balefire used in this one scene than in the entire rest of the series, combined.

If all it took to damage the pattern in a way that was in any way significant was to balefire 300 people back 15 minutes, then why has Moridin not done that? I mean he could just travel to some obscure village or town and start blasting away. Given how strong we know Moridin is, he could easily balefire 300 people. Heck, there are a lot of villages so if Moridin wanted he could probably balefire more than 300 people easily. In a few weeks he could probably balefire 3000. Or more! And each one more than 15 minutes. And these would be people who would actually be alive and sentient. With more active threads than the drones in Graendals palace.


This assumption is based on what you believe Moridin's plans are, but as we do not know exactly what those are, it's pretty much unfounded from the get-go. I mean, ask yourself, which of these possibilities is a more reasonable explanation for Moridin not balefiring entire populations?

1- Contrary to all evidence provided in the series and by Word of God (by Robert Jordan himself), balefire is actually harmless to the Pattern. After all, it can't be a question of quantity - Moridin wouldn't limit himself to a few hundred victims. If the unraveling of the Pattern through the use of balefire was Moridin's desire and dependent on a quantity of victims, Moridin would find that quantity of people and balefire them. therefore, contrary to Robert Jordan's opinion, balefire is completely and absolutely harmless to the Pattern.

2- Moridin's plans cannot come about through the destruction of the Pattern through balefire.

It seems to me than that when we take the fact that Moridin does not do this together with other facts such as Rands comment that he has seen many thousands burned from the pattern together with the fact that apparently during the War of power, balefire was used on entire cities, it seems to me that erasing 300 drones who probably had very little influence on anything, and one forsaken, would do very little real damage to the pattern. To have a significant effect would probably require tens of thousands of people balefired or Moridin would constantly be out there secretly balefiring people as fast as he could.


Finally, you assume that the destruction of the Pattern through balefire would happen through number of victims in an incident of balefire use. But we have no reason to believe this is how it happens. Really, the only was to know how would be for it to happen, and then there would be nobody to know.

There are innumerable possibilities other than that. Just as a way of examples, it could be a strict number of victims, but an absolute number, and every victim of balefire counts toward that number, therefore even a single victim of balefire brings the world distinctly closer to oblivion.

Or it could be a percentage - Say, one victim gives it a 0,01% chance of the Pattern unraveling, and a city would be a 20% chance. That still means that the Pattern could unravel from the balefire of just one person - say, Rahvin in The Fires of Heaven just as much as it could from an entire city.

And there are other possibilities too.

So I can't agree with you, simply because I don't accept your assumptions as true.
The first rule of being a ninja is "do no harm". Unless you intend to do harm, then do lots of harm.
~Master Splinter

Victorious in Bergioyn's legendary 'Reverse Mafia'. *MySmiley*
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Rand the psycho? - 06/01/2010 02:53:30 AM 1834 Views
I cannot follow your assumptions. - 06/01/2010 04:07:33 AM 1244 Views
On Balefire - 06/01/2010 04:43:18 AM 1229 Views
Good point - 06/01/2010 05:04:26 AM 1259 Views
On the nature of BaleFire - 06/01/2010 03:32:25 PM 1162 Views
Re: I cannot follow your assumptions. - 06/01/2010 04:59:12 AM 1072 Views
Wait! - 06/01/2010 05:10:33 AM 1148 Views
Re: Wait! - 06/01/2010 05:20:02 AM 1062 Views
Re: Wait! - 06/01/2010 05:58:00 AM 1052 Views
Re: Wait! - 06/01/2010 11:46:13 AM 1025 Views
Re: Wait! - 06/01/2010 03:55:01 PM 1025 Views
I disagree - 06/01/2010 05:42:44 PM 977 Views
Re: I disagree - 06/01/2010 06:41:08 PM 1022 Views
Re: I disagree - 07/01/2010 04:42:40 AM 1003 Views
I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 06/01/2010 07:30:56 AM 1119 Views
Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 06/01/2010 03:32:24 PM 1021 Views
Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 06/01/2010 09:52:47 PM 1122 Views
Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 06/01/2010 11:19:56 PM 1041 Views
Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 07/01/2010 12:21:50 AM 1097 Views
Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 07/01/2010 12:56:26 AM 1029 Views
Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 07/01/2010 01:46:16 AM 1096 Views
I agree with Templar - 09/01/2010 04:36:20 PM 994 Views
Re: I cannot follow your assumptions. - 06/01/2010 07:57:54 AM 1121 Views
Rand crossed a line - 06/01/2010 02:36:42 PM 1124 Views
Re: Rand crossed a line - 06/01/2010 04:16:12 PM 1082 Views
But... - 06/01/2010 04:34:02 PM 1158 Views
Re: But... - 06/01/2010 06:14:25 PM 965 Views
Doesn't Balefire remove your thread from the Pattern permanently? - 06/01/2010 02:55:38 PM 1114 Views
No, RJ stated balefired people can be reborn. *NM* - 06/01/2010 03:26:00 PM 541 Views
But not in this turning of the Wheel. So they'd miss out on MANY lifetimes. - 06/01/2010 05:46:04 PM 1022 Views
What? - 06/01/2010 06:20:56 PM 1034 Views
Where did you get that? - 06/01/2010 07:09:38 PM 995 Views
No, balefire just kills you backwards in time. It is not super-death. *NM* - 06/01/2010 09:58:18 PM 546 Views
LOL ... super-death! - 06/01/2010 11:59:31 PM 962 Views
Hah! *NM* - 07/01/2010 12:06:07 AM 540 Views
It makes me think of History of the World Part 1 - 07/01/2010 12:53:20 AM 996 Views
It makes me think of History of the World Part 1 - 07/01/2010 12:53:33 AM 953 Views
Yes it was. - 06/01/2010 06:51:15 PM 1102 Views
Re: Yes it was. - 06/01/2010 07:16:14 PM 1067 Views
Re: Yes it was. - 06/01/2010 08:58:40 PM 1056 Views
Re: Yes it was. - 06/01/2010 10:47:11 PM 1054 Views
let me ask the question in a different way - 06/01/2010 11:26:43 PM 1059 Views
Re: let me ask the question in a different way - 06/01/2010 11:40:56 PM 1038 Views
actually that quote supports my thoughts - 06/01/2010 11:50:40 PM 1121 Views
Re: actually that quote supports my thoughts - 07/01/2010 12:10:07 AM 990 Views
Meh. I just think advocating mass-murder is the opposite direction RJ meant for this to take. - 07/01/2010 12:00:44 AM 1095 Views
Sigh. What mass murder? - 07/01/2010 12:15:01 AM 939 Views
you are kidding right? - 07/01/2010 12:19:58 AM 1040 Views
In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 03:14:32 PM 1015 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 03:57:43 PM 1040 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 07:13:21 PM 1045 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 07:52:24 PM 967 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 08:56:43 PM 1057 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 09:26:01 PM 1022 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 09:30:45 PM 939 Views
Personally I'm kind of sick of Rand being the only person killing FS! - 07/01/2010 09:42:57 PM 1093 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 09:56:02 PM 1063 Views
OK I'm sorry but this gets a huge ROFL :lol: - 07/01/2010 10:30:19 PM 1068 Views
Re: OK I'm sorry but this gets a huge ROFL :lol: - 08/01/2010 01:53:25 PM 997 Views
Re: OK I'm sorry but this gets a huge ROFL :lol: - 08/01/2010 02:56:41 PM 1027 Views
What might work... - 08/01/2010 12:35:17 PM 935 Views
Re: What might work... - 08/01/2010 11:38:09 PM 956 Views
Yes. Anakin Skywalker all over again - 06/01/2010 11:01:02 PM 1132 Views
Meh - 06/01/2010 11:30:24 PM 958 Views
The worst part about his atrocities is his rationalizing them! - 06/01/2010 11:33:32 PM 964 Views
Re: The worst part about his atrocities is his rationalizing them! - 06/01/2010 11:50:37 PM 1064 Views
Re: The worst part about his atrocities is his rationalizing them! - 06/01/2010 11:55:03 PM 1024 Views
I do have to guiltily say, though, that if Rand had balefired the Seanchan and THEN became good... - 07/01/2010 12:03:20 AM 1021 Views
*laughs behind hand* - 07/01/2010 12:05:54 AM 1096 Views
Re: The worst part about his atrocities is his rationalizing them! - 07/01/2010 12:23:11 AM 942 Views
I don't think Rand or LTT (who has/have) little capacity for Healing - 07/01/2010 12:52:25 AM 990 Views
Re: I don't think Rand or LTT (who has/have) little capacity for Healing - 07/01/2010 01:24:32 AM 1059 Views
Re: I don't think Rand or LTT (who has/have) little capacity for Healing - 07/01/2010 03:33:52 PM 976 Views
Re: I don't think Rand or LTT (who has/have) little capacity for Healing - 07/01/2010 04:28:18 PM 1131 Views
right cause all Generals are so well versed in medical conditions - 07/01/2010 09:44:09 PM 1093 Views
Nice way to avoid the argument. - 07/01/2010 10:00:17 PM 1029 Views
I'm just done talking in circles. You seem to think that because people - 07/01/2010 11:53:05 PM 1054 Views
I concede - 07/01/2010 01:09:11 AM 964 Views
You weren't wrong overall, but there were some serious flaws in your reasoning. - 07/01/2010 02:43:17 AM 1090 Views
Tee hee. - 07/01/2010 05:28:52 AM 1031 Views
Morals are subjective anyhow, - 07/01/2010 06:23:09 AM 1038 Views
Re: Morals are subjective anyhow, - 07/01/2010 03:23:59 PM 975 Views
I have religious beliefs and that is an absurd contention - 09/01/2010 12:00:02 AM 1043 Views
Re: I have religious beliefs and that is an absurd contention - 09/01/2010 05:56:16 PM 1231 Views
Re: I have religious beliefs and that is an absurd contention - 18/01/2010 01:00:23 PM 1356 Views
Your assertions weaken your overall argument. - 11/01/2010 04:47:10 PM 937 Views
Re: Your assertions weaken your overall argument. - 18/01/2010 12:49:26 PM 970 Views

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