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Re: But... Datakim Send a noteboard - 06/01/2010 06:14:25 PM

We don't even know, if all people in the palace were drones (and also Rand couldn't know). For example, Ituralde also visited Graendal in her palace once, and wasn't a drone. Such visitors might have been in the palace, when Rand destroyed it. But in the end, Rand doesn't care about such collateral damage, because he wants Graendal.


LTT, who should know believes that Graendal would never be willing to let someone serve her who was not a drone. Though I admit that you are correct about the possibility of visitors. I would say however that the odds are in favor that Rand killed only drones.

But even if someone innocent died, well, that is tragic yes. But this is war and the unfortunately reality is that in war, people die. What if when Rand created that shadowspawn blasting weave in the Stone, a trolloc was standing too close to an innocent and the innocent was killed in the blast. Does that mean Rand should have done nothing and just let the trollocs all run loose rather than take the chance that he MIGHT kill someone with friendly fire.

From the PoV of Rand (and Min&Nynaeve), it was highly likely that only Graendal was alive there. And Graendal had to die. The chance had to be taken. And it is likely that by doing so, by killing Graendal (presumably), he saved a lot of people who would otherwise have been killed or mindraped by her in the future. Possibly many thousands.

What Rand did here was really not that different from what he did when he killed Rahvin and was flinging fire around. Or when he attacked Dashiva&co after they blew his room. He had no way of being 100% certain that bystanders would not be caught in the act, but he did his best, with the knowledge he had, to make sure they were not. Just as he did here.

But Min and Nynaeve seemed to act as though he deliberately set out to commit mass murder here when that is clearly not the case. So while we cannot know for sure, I repeat, Graendal was likely the only living person to die.

If you don't act in war because of some minute chance that there might be innocents in the way, you will never be able to do anything at all and you will lose the war.

War sucks. :(


The point is that the incident with Graendal's palace seems like the catalyst for Rand losing the rest of all restraints (and humanity) to use balefire on a large scale. After he destroyed the palace, the next big thing he considers is balefiring all the Seanchan bulwarks, although the Seanchan are common enemies and Rand is aware that innocent people might die as well.


But why? Why would this incident be a turning point rather than when he channeled the TP. As I have tried to argue, while harsh, what Rand did here was not the horrific evil that it was portraid as.

Seems more likely to me that the moment Rand touched TP, he started going crazy and that what happened here had nothing to do with the scenes later at Far Madding and Ebou Dar.


Doubt that Min is such aware of the mechanics of rebirth and balefire. However, her thoughts imply that she thinks a balefire death is final.


Herid Fel was since he knew that the wheel kept turning and the souls kept being reborn and the DO was sealed and released and sealed and so on.

Min has been studying his books to the point that she has figured out much of what Fel knew. Seems strange that she would not realise that if balefire destroyed souls, after a few turnings there would be none left.
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Rand the psycho? - 06/01/2010 02:53:30 AM 1595 Views
I cannot follow your assumptions. - 06/01/2010 04:07:33 AM 994 Views
On Balefire - 06/01/2010 04:43:18 AM 994 Views
Good point - 06/01/2010 05:04:26 AM 1019 Views
On the nature of BaleFire - 06/01/2010 03:32:25 PM 922 Views
Re: I cannot follow your assumptions. - 06/01/2010 04:59:12 AM 831 Views
Wait! - 06/01/2010 05:10:33 AM 952 Views
Re: Wait! - 06/01/2010 05:20:02 AM 865 Views
Re: Wait! - 06/01/2010 05:58:00 AM 834 Views
Re: Wait! - 06/01/2010 11:46:13 AM 786 Views
Re: Wait! - 06/01/2010 03:55:01 PM 786 Views
I disagree - 06/01/2010 05:42:44 PM 745 Views
Re: I disagree - 06/01/2010 06:41:08 PM 770 Views
Re: I disagree - 07/01/2010 04:42:40 AM 751 Views
I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 06/01/2010 07:30:56 AM 909 Views
Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 06/01/2010 03:32:24 PM 816 Views
Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 06/01/2010 09:52:47 PM 878 Views
Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 06/01/2010 11:19:56 PM 758 Views
Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 07/01/2010 12:21:50 AM 854 Views
Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 07/01/2010 12:56:26 AM 792 Views
Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 07/01/2010 01:46:16 AM 805 Views
I agree with Templar - 09/01/2010 04:36:20 PM 776 Views
Re: I cannot follow your assumptions. - 06/01/2010 07:57:54 AM 888 Views
Rand crossed a line - 06/01/2010 02:36:42 PM 901 Views
Re: Rand crossed a line - 06/01/2010 04:16:12 PM 814 Views
But... - 06/01/2010 04:34:02 PM 927 Views
Re: But... - 06/01/2010 06:14:25 PM 740 Views
Doesn't Balefire remove your thread from the Pattern permanently? - 06/01/2010 02:55:38 PM 800 Views
No, RJ stated balefired people can be reborn. *NM* - 06/01/2010 03:26:00 PM 412 Views
But not in this turning of the Wheel. So they'd miss out on MANY lifetimes. - 06/01/2010 05:46:04 PM 807 Views
What? - 06/01/2010 06:20:56 PM 811 Views
Where did you get that? - 06/01/2010 07:09:38 PM 774 Views
No, balefire just kills you backwards in time. It is not super-death. *NM* - 06/01/2010 09:58:18 PM 448 Views
LOL ... super-death! - 06/01/2010 11:59:31 PM 755 Views
Hah! *NM* - 07/01/2010 12:06:07 AM 394 Views
It makes me think of History of the World Part 1 - 07/01/2010 12:53:20 AM 764 Views
It makes me think of History of the World Part 1 - 07/01/2010 12:53:33 AM 737 Views
Yes it was. - 06/01/2010 06:51:15 PM 870 Views
Re: Yes it was. - 06/01/2010 07:16:14 PM 793 Views
Re: Yes it was. - 06/01/2010 08:58:40 PM 830 Views
Re: Yes it was. - 06/01/2010 10:47:11 PM 822 Views
let me ask the question in a different way - 06/01/2010 11:26:43 PM 809 Views
Re: let me ask the question in a different way - 06/01/2010 11:40:56 PM 809 Views
actually that quote supports my thoughts - 06/01/2010 11:50:40 PM 828 Views
Re: actually that quote supports my thoughts - 07/01/2010 12:10:07 AM 783 Views
Meh. I just think advocating mass-murder is the opposite direction RJ meant for this to take. - 07/01/2010 12:00:44 AM 838 Views
Sigh. What mass murder? - 07/01/2010 12:15:01 AM 725 Views
you are kidding right? - 07/01/2010 12:19:58 AM 816 Views
In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 03:14:32 PM 798 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 03:57:43 PM 807 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 07:13:21 PM 819 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 07:52:24 PM 761 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 08:56:43 PM 834 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 09:26:01 PM 765 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 09:30:45 PM 708 Views
Personally I'm kind of sick of Rand being the only person killing FS! - 07/01/2010 09:42:57 PM 885 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 09:56:02 PM 820 Views
OK I'm sorry but this gets a huge ROFL :lol: - 07/01/2010 10:30:19 PM 797 Views
Re: OK I'm sorry but this gets a huge ROFL :lol: - 08/01/2010 01:53:25 PM 751 Views
Re: OK I'm sorry but this gets a huge ROFL :lol: - 08/01/2010 02:56:41 PM 809 Views
What might work... - 08/01/2010 12:35:17 PM 720 Views
Re: What might work... - 08/01/2010 11:38:09 PM 741 Views
Yes. Anakin Skywalker all over again - 06/01/2010 11:01:02 PM 893 Views
Meh - 06/01/2010 11:30:24 PM 742 Views
The worst part about his atrocities is his rationalizing them! - 06/01/2010 11:33:32 PM 746 Views
Re: The worst part about his atrocities is his rationalizing them! - 06/01/2010 11:50:37 PM 824 Views
Re: The worst part about his atrocities is his rationalizing them! - 06/01/2010 11:55:03 PM 769 Views
I do have to guiltily say, though, that if Rand had balefired the Seanchan and THEN became good... - 07/01/2010 12:03:20 AM 801 Views
*laughs behind hand* - 07/01/2010 12:05:54 AM 877 Views
Re: The worst part about his atrocities is his rationalizing them! - 07/01/2010 12:23:11 AM 745 Views
I don't think Rand or LTT (who has/have) little capacity for Healing - 07/01/2010 12:52:25 AM 750 Views
Re: I don't think Rand or LTT (who has/have) little capacity for Healing - 07/01/2010 01:24:32 AM 814 Views
Re: I don't think Rand or LTT (who has/have) little capacity for Healing - 07/01/2010 03:33:52 PM 754 Views
Re: I don't think Rand or LTT (who has/have) little capacity for Healing - 07/01/2010 04:28:18 PM 898 Views
right cause all Generals are so well versed in medical conditions - 07/01/2010 09:44:09 PM 853 Views
Nice way to avoid the argument. - 07/01/2010 10:00:17 PM 808 Views
I'm just done talking in circles. You seem to think that because people - 07/01/2010 11:53:05 PM 841 Views
I concede - 07/01/2010 01:09:11 AM 735 Views
You weren't wrong overall, but there were some serious flaws in your reasoning. - 07/01/2010 02:43:17 AM 843 Views
Tee hee. - 07/01/2010 05:28:52 AM 794 Views
Morals are subjective anyhow, - 07/01/2010 06:23:09 AM 830 Views
Re: Morals are subjective anyhow, - 07/01/2010 03:23:59 PM 751 Views
I have religious beliefs and that is an absurd contention - 09/01/2010 12:00:02 AM 825 Views
Re: I have religious beliefs and that is an absurd contention - 09/01/2010 05:56:16 PM 983 Views
Re: I have religious beliefs and that is an absurd contention - 18/01/2010 01:00:23 PM 1092 Views
Your assertions weaken your overall argument. - 11/01/2010 04:47:10 PM 720 Views
Re: Your assertions weaken your overall argument. - 18/01/2010 12:49:26 PM 760 Views

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